We have a new DUer tonight with a message for all of us!

#2 of 2, and a thanks to DUers who care, from an Iraqi vet:

Can I just add something?

I grew up in Mississippi as your average Good Ole Boy (tm). When I enlisted in the Marine Corps halfway through college it was no surprise to anyone; after all, my father and both grandfathers had served with distinction in the Navy and Army. All three were passionate believers in public service; they said if you have anything to offer your country you should give it, your whole life. (I still believe that.) They also believed in democracy and debate. If you have an opinion, it's not just your right, but your responsibility as a citizen to make it public and fight for it.

I've been to forums all over the political spectrum, and DU is the first place where UNIVERSALLY I've been thanked for my service as a veteran. That means A LOT to me. Seriously. I've come over to the progressive camp mainly for one reason: progressives' actions and words, to my mind, show all the signs of patriotism, a virtue I believe passionately in and just can't seem to find in the mainstream discourse. I call myself a "progressive" now because I believe in human liberty and dignity, which I only find the progressives valuing.

Am I a freak? I was a jarhead. I believed it all -- and still do, in a lot of ways. Service is a good thing. I believe in this country, passionately. It's a grand experiment that we are all responsible for maintaining. The proudest moment of my life was receiving an eagle globe & anchor badge that said I had undergone the training and tests neccessary to call myself a US Marine. I was an "old salty hand" by the time this war rolled around. I had already served in Kosovo. These kids believe, most of them, as passionately as I do, and even more. Why do our leaders treat them like this? I sometimes lie in bed at night weeping for my friends who are still over there. God knows what they are going through; I got out before the war got "bad".

If you'll take praise from a dumb jarhead, you're all patriots here, even those (especially those?) who hate that word. We need you. Keep fighting. Don't let them get away with dishonoring my brothers and sisters in arms who have given their bodies and souls for this country on a liar's words. You honor them most by fighting for an honest accounting of why they died or were maimed.

I hate to quote a stupid movie, but I will. At the end of Gladiator, the emperor's sister asks "Is Rome worth the life of one good man? We believed it was once; make us believe it again". This nation, our liberties, are something worth fighting and dying for. We are fighting, and we are dying. Don't make it be in vain. This country is worth the life of a good man or woman -- but no lie is.

There is a cancer on this nation. John Dean didn't come close to describing the full evil with that phrase. This administration risks subverting all that was good and sacred about America. I fought; I was lucky. My friends fought; some of them were not lucky. We need you to fight for us now. Don't back down. Don't doubt yourself. Fight. Take the country back and redeem my brothers' and sisters' sacrifice. We can make it through this if we fight for each other. I'm just scared we won't.

The initial thread started here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1125048&mesg_id=1125048

And here is the wonderful message, number 1 of 2
:
It's not the CIA's frigging job to set policy. It's their job to give policy setters (that's what we call "deciders", Dubya) the most accurate intelligence they can. Since intel is more of an art than a science, there aren't exact answers. So, they give you a *range* of reasonable possibilities, which they did. That range went from best reasonable case (Saddam has given up completely on WMD b/c he completely lacks the infrastructure for them) to worst reasonable case (Saddam has WMDs and is hiding them), but concentrates on the most likely case (Saddam still wants WMDs but is simply not in a position to obtain them because he's too busy keeping his population from killing him).

It's not the CIA's fault that policy makers ignored the CIA's pretty clear statements (from everything declassified I've seen) that Saddam *might* have WMDs but *probably* doesn't. What's more, the CIA (and anyone with half a brain) was DAMN clear that the very LAST thing Saddam would ever do was give nukes to a pan-Islamist terrorist, since they wanted him dead even more than we did. Bin Laden's "fatwas" are online (I put "fatwa" in quotes because he's not even a cleric, let alone a mullah, so his arrogating the power of fatwa to himself is a little ridiculous), and they are even translated for those intel geniuses who can't be bothered to learn Arabic. His aims are pretty clear:

1. Get US troops out of Saudi Arabia (well, we took care of that for him, since we had to leave once we invaded a muslim country)
2. Overthrow Saddam Houssein (and we did that for him too)
3. Overthrow Mubarak and Al-Asad (we're getting closer there)
4. Remove Israel and the US as players in the middle east (we'll see...)

It's suddenly striking me as I write this out: are we on Bin Laden's f*king side or something? We're achieving all his stated war aims for him.

So either the CIA somehow doesn't have anybody who can do a damn web search and read UBL's fatwas and report on our enemy's intentions, or the administration chooses to ignore them. I wonder which one it is.

As a vet of this idiotic war, I'm appalled at how the administration treats the people who serve this country. Everybody I ever worked with from CIA was professional, skilled, and truly loved this country (yeah, I know there were some really bad sheep in Abu Ghraib, etc.; I just never ran across them). But to malign the people of the CIA who work their asses off and in some cases put their lives on the line every day because Dick and Bush couldn't see fit to actually read their reports is hideous.

and thanks for your service!

:hi:

Welcome to DU! :patriot: <--- Patriot Smiley

Duh... :P

The weekend guy, with a perfectly straight face, referred to the CIA's intelligence failures that led to our problems in Iraq! I didn't know that news outlets were still trying to push that tripe.

I'm glad I haven't used them as a news source in ages--I'd know nothing. When I turned over to NBC, even they had so much more about what this administration is up to, and without the sugar-coated tip-toeing around.

he was trying to figure it out. Now, especially after Woodward's accident, no one wants to.

Thanks for your service and for the encouragement. Welcome to DU :patriot:

(thanks, sis)

what is going on, how the men and women in the military feel. Coming from someone who know, has experience, has been there.

... for catching demesg's post and making sure it got the attention is deserves!

What a fantastic read!

:kick: :kick: :kick: and RECOMMENDED!

What's ironic is that I remember you when you first got here, and you were shy. So is our newest friend. Funnily enough, you came out of your shell, and have been giving and giving! I hope this man is able to do the same! :hug:

Which is strange, because it's really out-of-character for someone with my big mouth.

But I guess we all go through that, until we're sure that we're among friends, until we are confident that our opinions will be respected as such, even at times they are disagreed with.

I am so grateful you took the initiative in bringing dmesg's message to our collective attention. How gratifying it is for all of us to know that our military men and women realize that we are on THEIR side in all of this.

Thanks again for starting this thread, for being willing to coax a shy new DUbie to come out from hiding. I'm sure he hasn't missed the warm-heartedness behind your encouragement -- any more than I did when you encouraged me to speak up.

As always, this :hug: goes out across the miles to my Babylonsister!

words that I appreciate more than I can say. :hug:

... searching for the melody of encouragement to turn them into a song.

I wonder if you realize how many symphonies you inspire every day?

necassarily! You are brilliant!

well a great big welcome to DU ... you are truly among friends here who respect your service to the country ...

i would just like to emphasize that it has long been the haven of those who would corrupt our democracy and serve only the interests of their greedy friends to wrap themselves in the flag and call those who criticize them un-American ... we are not that ... i deeply thank you for your observation that we are patriots ... i love what this country should represent; i hate what's been done to it by those who seek only to cater to a super-wealthy elite ... in my view, they are traitors and worse ...

we are painted as hating America - but they are not America ... they allow their friends to buy legislation and set policy that benefits Big Oil, Big Pharma, big whatever ... they don't care about our institutions; they have no respect for liberty; they have no respect for our Constitution; the truth is, few of them really give a damn about the troops either ... what kind of nonsense happened that we deployed troops to Iraq without adequate gear? the wealthiest nation in the world treated its military like pawns to be sacrified for record oil profits ... and yet somehow, all their macho talk ("we'll show those towelheads or bring it on") sold to many who are in the military ... they're not your friends ...

during the Vietnam war, the left was guilty of a huge mistake ... too many of us confused the wrongness of that war with holding the troops responsible ... i am deeply sorry for that; we're still paying the price today because the lessons we learned have been acknowledged by only a few ... i'm glad you've observed this is not the left of 1970 ... i truly appreciate that ...

we need a peaceful revolution of reform in our country to restore our Constitution and our Bill of Rights ... we don't need rampant nationalism although we should be able to take pride in our country once the people have genuinely regained control ... government should serve each and every one of us and adhere to the rule of law; it should not serve only campaign contributors and the wealthiest elite ... and we should see our country as a good neighbor and a good global citizen ... we should have every ounce of defense we require but we should also understand that our greatest strength comes from building alliances and sharing our values with the rest of the world ... it's not all about a huge defense budget ... in fact, i believe our huge defense budget has weakened our country ... again, we should have all the defense we need; we should not have any of the defense we don't need ... doing that fattens the wallets of defense contractors with taxpayer dollars that could be better spent on other very real priorities like education and national health and a cleaner environment ... if we fall behind the rest of the world in education, our future just will not be as safe and certainly won't be as prosperous ...

anyway, sorry for the long ramble ... i appreciate the opportunity to speak to someone who's had the experiences you've had ... i hope you'll become a regular poster on DU and we can bang heads on the great issues of the day ...

I ask because of this:



http://www.sirnosir.com/

One of the things they debunk is the notion that Vietnam vets were spat upon by the left as they returned. I found the movie a real eye opener. I remember hearing about some the anti-war movement in the military but I had no idea how far it had gone.

BMU

Edit, clarity

edited: sorry, i initially misunderstood your post due to your typo on the subject line ... the following should be more responsive now ... btw, i've helped organize a progressive documentary series at my local library ... maybe we could show the movie you referenced ...

i lived and breathed the anti-war movement from about 1968 through about 1973 ...

i remember hearing about the coffee houses and i remember thinking they could eventually cause an end to the war ... it was amazing to know that those on the inside had the courage to speak out against the injustice in Vietnam ...

that leaders of our nation exploited the service of these men and that they stood up in opposition speaks well to their dedication to our country's ideals ... it makes their intent and their service honorable ... and it makes those who exploit them for their own greedy purposes war criminals ...

our mission here must be to bond with our brothers and sisters in the military and share our views about those who have corrupted our institutions ... until we are reunited, the power of the ruling elite will remain intact ...

we were divided and conquered once by these imperialists and by our own blindness; it is time to close the divide and restore our nation's soul and purge the evil ones from the halls of our government ...

Everything you said :hi:

And it is a worthy movie, too.

Remember what an out of control defense budget did to the Soviet Union. The road to empire is paved with failed republics. We have become our cold war adversaries with rigged elections and everyone working for the same minimum wages.
Our President is a nut.
Rubber Stamp Republicans: Without them, Bush's failed policies would only be a hair-brained agenda.
At least Mussolini made the trains run on time.

Yeah, that was me. I'm humbled that babylonsister thought it worth its own thread.

I'm a Marine. It's my avatar image. If you asked me what I did with my life I'd say "I was a U.S. Marine, damn it". I don't regret that choice. I regret that this country let a liar send my friends off to die for a lie.

Thank you all. It touches my heart so deeply, the depth of gratitude I've received in this forum, and I can tell you my friends would feel the same way if the media would let them see how you all felt. This country is worth it. This administration isn't. Let's bring them home.

righteous bunch for the most part, and they want justice, as you do! Major hugs to you! :hug:

Thank you for your service and welcome home. Thank you as well for your honesty and eloquence.

I am and I use that command quite frequently ;) dmesg | grep something - anyway...

MORE importantly - THANK YOU for serving, Sir. AND Welcome to DU!

:hug:

And I try to avoid using software I haven't audited and compiled myself. I'm a little paranoid that way :)

I like the idea of a dmesg: a diagnostic message buffer containing salient facts about why your kernel just crashed. I think we're in the middle of a kernel panic in this country, metaphorically, and I feel kind of called to be part of our national dmesg and get my thoughts on record.

See now *I* don't feel so alone. :) We are MOST DEFINITELY in the midst of a kernel panic here, and your handle is indeed most apropos. Looking forward to hearing LOTS more from you here on DU!

...as my sig says. I like open-source because it places mistrust at the center of it all. Now, let's talk about voting machines on closed-source platforms with unverified binary patches being delivered by the vendor right up until the day of elections...


... but that's probably another forum topic, isn't it?

But, we see that as a No. 1 issue with our elections. How can you win when the game is rigged?

When you get there check out all the work so far done analyzing the results of elections since about 2000 where electronic voting machines have been used to rig elections and essentially steal our democracy. Then, check out the work done to require either hand counted paper ballots or fair and random audits of hand-counted paper print outs of voter verified ballots for all elections that don't use paper ballots. Investigate for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Then, if you're convinced, do all you can to help others to see.

Thanks for your service. :)

Semper Fi! Welcome aboard and I'll meet you at the MarBar someday.

-Hoot

I am deeply grateful for your service to this country. Your message is one the whole country MUST begin to hear.

Thanks again.

TC

Your service to your country is greatly appreciated, both in the Marines and in fighting against those who would abuse the men and women who serve.

When you join up, you are placing a major trust in the government. You are saying "I will, if necessary, lay down my life for my country" and trusting them to send you where it is both necessary and right to take that risk. The chickenhawks of the Bush administration have betrayed that trust. They are miles beyond contempt on this issue.

:hug: :hug: :hug: You call us patriots but you have courage and patriotism that I know I could never manage to have. thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

:patriot: And may I add that you are a wonderful writer. I am looking forward to your future posts and analysis of the mess we are in and hopefully ways of how to get out of it.

Let's bring them home.

because both are what make this country a great nation that deserves to be led by competent and compassionate leaders.

Several years ago we had a President from Texas who took office under unusual circumstances. He then proceeded to start a war predicated on lies. I fought in that war, and today I am totally reliant on Veterans benefits and Social Security. The criminals in the White House are moving to offset Veterans benefits with Social Security benefits, two unrelated issues. It is beyond me why these lying scumbags and war profiteers see fit to give Paris Hilton a tax break on the backs of this nation's disabled veterans. Some things are just immoral, and one of those things is the unelected Bush junta. Welcome home brother.

Some of my best teachers were jarheads. :)
Thank you for your service, dmesg, and thanks for some much-needed inspiration!
:applause:

The whole issue of East/West, Muslim/Non-Muslim, Colonized/Imperialist relations is about as convoluted as anything can get. Certainly no way in hell our Commander in Chief would ever be able to wrap his feeble brain around the nuances. So I'll probably get in trouble for stating a simplified case. But in my opinion the interests of the House of Saud, Al Quaeda and Bush Co. are uncomfortably aligned in too many instances.

Thanks for speaking your mind!

Being a Marine is a burden. We do what we're ordered to. I don't offer that as an excuse, just as a reason. We love this country, but we hate seeing its image and reputation marred by people who have never worn this country's uniform but see fit to sully its honor in the name of "America" and "freedom". Well, freedom has a unique taste to a veteran, and you can't bullshit one if you don't know what it really tastes like. There's a groundswell, and it's growing.

I'm not a leader, really. I mean, I led 12 Marines on patrol most nights, but that's different. It's tactical. I didn't have to have a reason, or a better idea. I just had to keep them alive. Thank God (I do, each night) that all 12 of mine made it back in one piece each night. We want a leader. We believe in this country and we just want somebody to stand up for us. Somebody to say our lives are worth more than lies and hubris and imperialism. We don't want to live forever (otherwise we wouldn't have joined the Corps); we just want to know that if we fall those who come after will not abandon us to a black basalt wall and hope all will be forgiven.

My fallen brothers and sister demand better, if I may have the audacity to speak for them. They demand an accounting. Their blood is an open wound on this wonderful nation that will not be healed until we admit why they died and keep more from dying after them.

I'm new here, so I'm hesitant to wax poetic about all this until I get a feel for the forum. But I feel so passionately about this subject that I can't keep my mouth shut. Fight. They fought for us, now we have to fight for them and demand accountability for the blood they paid. I'm not the only Marine that feels this way. Lead, and we'll fight as hard as we did in Fallujah and Baghdad.

EDIT: fixed a typo

You are at the point where you can post your own threads, I think. I will help that endeavor, because you make so much sense!

And I hope that you and your brothers and sisters never feel alone. We're with you in spirit, and honor your service. Please don't let your brothers and sisters in uniform ever fall for the lie that the current "leaders" of this country are pushing about those of us who are against this war. They say that opposing this war means that we don't support the troops. That is a lie. We know that you have honored our nation with your service. We know that, from the bottom of our hearts. It is the "leaders" who lied -- both to you and to us -- who have dishonored America.

of ... they are our sons, daughters, brothers, sisters - our blood, as well! I'm so heartened to hear your voice speaking up, & welcome you home. Good gawd, man - you do have a fine voice here! Raise it loud & often, for us as well as those that we are trying to bring home!

Bravo!

and welcome to DU. We all know that the troops just follow orders and I hope I speak for us all when I say that we don't hold anything against the troops and support them 150%. What we dont agree with is the idiot thats giving the orders. This monkey-in-a-man-suit just doesnt get it at all. I hope and pray to see him and his criminal cabal led out of the White House in handcuffs.

Again, welcome and thank you!

Re >>I led 12 Marines on patrol most nights, but that's different. It's tactical. I didn't have to have a reason, or a better idea. I just had to keep them alive. Thank God (I do, each night) that all 12 of mine made it back in one piece each night.<<

We hear so many horrible stories, and sometimes see horrible pictures too, but then when was war ever NOT horrible? Every bit of good news is precious, and it's good to hear that all 12 of your Marines and you came back one piece.

The Band of Brothers are Democratic veterans (most, but not all, anti-Iraq-war), who are running for Congress to continue their service. There are too few vets in congress, leading to a disregard for the lives and patriotism of the men and women they send to war for private profit. Please help us help them; you can find them on www.actblue.com.

As an Arizona progressive, The Fighting Dem I personally am supporting is Jeff Latas, running in AZ's CD8, an open seat that we can and must win. He pledges to help give John Conyers the power he needs to investigate and impeach the cabal who has stolen America, and to fight for a sustainable energy policy that will end our addiction to false wars for profit. www.jefflatas.com He deserves your help, as do other vets running for Congress.

If he were still alive, he would thank you for your service as well.

I'd like to welcome you to DU, and by the way, I was born in Louisiana.

I'd also like you to know that we Democrats are very patriotic (although these days the media would have you believe otherwise).

I'm well over 50 -- old enough to be a grandmother, but I would pick up a gun and fight for my country in a heartbeat if need be. My sons would do the same.


:patriot: :)

Please always speak your mind...that's exactly what we need, here and in our country, and if anyone has a right to do so...you most certainly do!
I came late into this thread, but already love what you had to say so far!
People like you give me hope that there is still a future to fight for, despite the dreadful odds!

taken in again and will make real contributions to his country, if through nothing else than being wise (but I'll bet there's more he'll offer!).

Wonderful post.

I'm glad that DU has made him welcome and treated him with respect. As long as we have a military, the soldiers will follow orders (well, maybe * is pushing the limit). That's their deal and if they don't then there's no military. Disrespect of those who serve when things are rough constitutes a real problem when we need them to do the things that protect us all. The left and the Democrats learned that lesson.

That's why there are so many vets on the ballot running as Democrats this year.

Great post. Thank you.

You do also, and I'm so glad! :hug:

compadres, doesn't it, Auto? We're passionate believers in it, too. Even limeys like me. As well as with the late (but never more timely) General Smedley-Butler. What's the Communion of Saints about, if he's not in this with us!

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html

Look at the CIA's founding membership and their aristocratic bent towards authoritarian rule. Operation Paperclip, anyone ? Reinhard Gehlen for cryin' out loud.

USMC Gen Smedley D. Butler (2X CMOH) had it down. War IS a racket

http://lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Butler helped get FDR elected with role in the Bonus March of 1932...America's Tienanmen Square.

Gen. Butler is still spoken of in hushed, awed tones by Marines. He's the only officer in US history to earn two Medals of Honor. He prevented possibly the worst attempt at a coup d'etat in this country's history. And he was a Quaker to boot.

If we had leaders with half that much courage, hell, a quarter, we wouldn't be where we are today.

and thank you for your posts and your service. :patriot:

I am glad you came to share with us. :hug:

closely if you read it, too. G Washington, another general who didn't want foreign entanglements to screw up the country. Too bad corporations, those invisible 'persons' behind these adventures, don't get their charters revoked !

That's some damn good writing. There's something about speaking the truth that makes one look like a frickin' genius. Maybe it's that too few people do it anymore.

that when you hear it, it resonates! :toast:

Thanks for that. I'm hardly a genius. Just a Marine graves registration clerk who scraped too many boys and girls off the dirt in Fallujah. I hate to think of the Iraq War movies that will come out in a few years. They'll show the fighters as adults. They weren't. They were 18 and 19 year old boys and girls. I remember that Vonnegut book mentioned that; to call any war movie "The Children's Crusade". Well, it's true.

I'm not a pacifist. I don't think war is never the least of several evils. But this war, for these non-stated aims, with these non-articulated objectives, is clearly the worst of the evils we faced. People don't want us to "re-hash" why we are there. But if we don't have a clear set of objectives, how can we even talk about victory? If we don't have a set of defined aims we are fighting for, how will we know if we have won or lost? The blood of those who are willing to die for us is a sacred debt we cannot repay, and if it takes my whole life to see that my friends' deaths are honored by an accounting of why they died, well, that's a small price compared to what they gave me.

to me. :shrug:

What an incredible journey. It has been for me, too, but I've always been on the other side of the fence. I have no disrespect for the military but I have very grave concerns about the interface of great wealth, politics, industry, energy and the military. I've been fighting the 'military industrial complex' or whatever you want to call it since Vietnam. I actually believe there is another way, a way that will work, a way that will bring people all over the world together and end war. I've always believed this is possible. But it is NOT possible so long as fortunes can be made from war. This is the fundamental problem, so long as war generates wealth for some, tensions and divisions will be perpetuated between us. My whole life I've been told I'm too 'idealistic', that my dreams can't possibly come true because people are inherently selfish and violent.

All evidence to the contrary, I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS. My observation is that most people want to be left alone to live their lives in relative peace. It is always people in positions of authority who get them riled up or bamboozle them with visions of glory or terror or both.

My understanding is that the philosophy behind neoconservatism fears the possibility of peace on Earth; they see it as a threat to human evolution and progress. For this reason they want war, endless war, even if it means the loss of civilization. Better to return to the darkness of ignorance than pursue the possibility of a more enlightened humanity.

That is simply INSANE, a self-serving, elitist delusion. These people must be stopped before it is too late for all of us. There are fascist moles inside our government, intelligence and military and they have just about done what they most want to do: Create the conditions necessary to circumvent the Constitution of the United States before finally overthrowing it completely.

I am disheartened this has gotten as far as it has since some of us have been watching it grow for decades. However, I am heartened when I hear someone from 'the other side' begin to wake up. You may not agree with my extreme perception but I'll bet it doesn't seem as 'far out there' as it once did.

about the interface of great wealth, politics, industry, energy and the military. I've been fighting the 'military industrial complex' or whatever you want to call it since Vietnam."

~~~~~~

I hardly know where to start on this thread, since as usually happens I find myself once again among some heavy-hitters at DU who express their brilliant insights and informed opinions extremely well, contributing a lot of substance beyond the emotions that drive all us human critters.

Mostly I'm still reeling a bit from this powerful introduction to Dmesg's presence among us -- a man with much to say that deserves attention and the platform of military experience to command that attention. In my book, anyone who ever worked in graves registration for more than a few days should mention it as Dmesg did so that his audience can truly understand his perspective.

I'll try not to ramble too much this time -- partly because I want everyone who visits this thread to have the stamina to read ALL the great posts in it. (I'm also striving in general against my nature, for all DUers' sakes, to move closer to haiku mode or at least Alice's Restaurant mode and away from Tolstoy novel mode in my postings.)

So I decided to respond first to Beam Me Up's comments, summed up fairly well in the quote from his post #26 which I chose to open my comments here. As those of you who have read more than a couple of my posts since I came to DU ten months ago probably know, I have been a staunch friend and supporter of Vietnam vets all my adult life -- and, mostly through my closeness to them, I've learned to embrace veterans and also active duty military servicemembers of all eras.

But like Beam Me Up, I have been deeply concerned about what Ike called the "military industrial complex" ever since I first heard the term (from Ike's own mouth, one of my first vivid memories of a president's speech in "modern" media). Eisenhower recognized the potential threat to us all of the mil-ind-com which grew from infancy to full maturity in the brief three decades spanning our earth's two named world wars. Indeed, these global conflicts were not the products of our "mother" earth at all but rather of the societal groupings of human beings walking her face.

While it is true that "Nature's nature" encompasses predators and prey, yet no other living beings but humans kill and maim en masse and for the sake of greed and accompanying visions of power.

Ike also said this: "I like to believe that people in the long run are going to do more to promote peace than our governments. Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it." So it's clear to me that this great military leader agrees with you, Beam Me Up, when you said this in your post: "My whole life I've been told I'm too 'idealistic', that my dreams can't possibly come true because people are inherently selfish and violent. All evidence to the contrary, I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS. "

As to the hope we here at DU feel upon hearing Dmesg's wise words, I'm afraid mine is tempered just a bit by my understanding of the way military might is deployed by America's civilian "leaders." When we find madmen with religious zealoutry agendas in the highest political offices of the United States, we must realize we have given unimaginable physical power to dangerous individuals who are unconcerned with the deepest desires of our people.

Within its own ranks, military structure requires that its members OBEY ORDERS. If every individual grunt and officer who served had to search out the reasons for battles and wars to determine if their orders were lawful, let alone "right," a military force would cease to function. Therein lies the potential for misuse of military power by the other arms of the mil-ind-com: the "ind" or industrial (or corporate) wing.

As hesitant as I am to say this in view of Dmesg's heartening declarations, I still worry that most who serve in the various branches of the U.S. military continue to "buy the lie" coming down to them from above in the chain of command. I know too many personally who simply can't seem to accept that their dedication and willingness to fight, die, and worse yet to see their comrades in arms killed and maimed may lead to the ultimate result of their participation in the prosecution of immoral, illegal campaigns.

Humanity's civilian societies have historically never felt entirely comfortable with their relationship with the "warrior class," as many astute writers have observed for centuries. In modern times, the scope of certain unscrupulous individuals' desire for power has not really grown -- but the technology with which the subjugation of nations can be enforced certainly has!

To summarize as best I can: I am deeply concerned that Humanity may have passed a "tipping point" along the path to that old "Mutually Assured Destruction" end that was projected during the long anxious time of the so-called Cold War. I still have fears about the strength and tenacity of the many millions -- indeed, billions! -- around the world who desire only peace to reverse this course in time.

Yet I have seen of late so many good reasons for HOPE that my sagging morale has received some powerful boosts. This thread alone illustrates several of those reasons for hope and optimism that I have found here at DU, and reminds me that, again historically, whenever perilous times have threatened the wellbeing and even the very existence of humans on this planet, great leaders have arisen to redirect our course.

I think such leaders are most often drafted by the people, who need them and push them into positions at the top -- or better said, at the "front"! Quite honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if and when the dust settles and we see who it is that guides us out of the present global crisis, one or several of those leaders have passed through the halls of DU.... (and yes, I'm serious :)).

Great writing. Thanks!

:yourock:

belief in this country and in justice and your willingness to come forward and speak the truth... thank you so much for all of this, not "just" for your years of putting your life and your body on the line. THIS is what can save this country.

"Dumb"? Absolutely not. And if I heard anyone suggest it seriously, I'd surely set them straight.

Welcome, welcome, welcome!!!!!

DUers are simply in a tug of war over this country. It may not seem like a glorious battle, but it's a fight that must be won. We want the US to work for everybody. It's a nation of great promise with leaders at the helm who don't know the meaning of honor that the men who put on the uniform to go die for their country if needed do understand.

The liar in chief puts a smear on the good name of the Marines when he underfunds and forgets about the children -- When *ush says "no child left behind" he means children of white Bible believing rich folk. When a Marine says "no one left behind" they mean exactly what they say, and it isn't a cake walk or simply a matter of finding the money. Like the singer Pink says, "Dear Mr President, .... you don't know the meaning of hard work." I could add - "Ask a Marine."

We may be fighting on different front lines, but we are in solidarity on certain issues. America stands for something more than corporate greed. From our founding fathers to pioneers who died along the way and farmers who fought the soil to bring up crops to feed the multitudes and the crazy so and so's who came along for the ride, but jumped into the breech to defend a neighbor THEIR lives, their deaths mean something to those of US who came along afterward. It is a dishonor to their memory if America isn't all she can be.

America is MORE than just a bunch of people sitting around between Canada and Mexico and two oceans. WE are a huge collective family of choice. WE don't get along with each other all the time, but we share the blood spilled in countless battles to secure this nation's freedoms. We share the responsibility to make this a great nation, not just a financial stomping ground where only the needs of the rich matter and the peasants can go F*** themselves.

Just because we aren't anxious to throw good people into a war zone, in NO WAY means we lack respect for them. DEMs have gone into the armed services quite a bit AND those I know actually SERVED their tours. My dad was in the Army and he's the one who taught me that every American needs to be informed and keep the leaders in line.

We especially understand the boots on the ground are only able to do good if the orders they receive are truthful. Soldiers are simply doing what they have been told was right and supportive of this country. We wish a lot more of them would get past the propaganda and look for the truth, because like you they would realize that the worst enemy we face right now is disinformation wielded by those in power to keep us from becoming a cohesive force for the real values of America.

To my mind, Mac Arthur had it right. Since we developed nuclear weapons and can blow the planet up if we try hard enough, even a soldier's first dedication should be to peace. It isn't cowardice, it's common sense.

It isn't fear, it's respect of the deadly potential we possess. A Marine wouldn't jump into a high school fight and eliminate one of the kids with a well placed deadly chop and the US shouldn't dump it's whole armament on a country substantially smaller than us without getting our facts straight.

Thank you for your service. Thank you for your open attitude toward finding out what really deserves a fighting man's attentions. Thank you for not wasting what is obviously a mind capable of intelligent thought.

Last of all, thanks for this wonderful set of posts.

sharing what it means to be a Dem. Yours was a great post! :hug:

I feel 500% better after seeing the responses to this.

America is not just a country; she is an idea. She is a dream in the heart of every man and woman that wants to be free and equal to all others. Your "no one left behind" comment floored me -- you're exactly right. It's especially pertinent to me since my job was to collect the remains of the fallen: everybody goes home. Period. Not "some". Not "the lucky ones".

If you want to call me a spearhead, go for it. I'm not the only one in my platoon, let alone my regiment, let alone the Corps who feels this way. At the risk of redundancy I want to thank you all so much for the welcome you've shown me here, and to the extent that my online life is important I intend to keep contributing if it helps. There will be an accounting. Maybe in this world, or maybe in the next, but the truth will out. And thank you for not pretending that a lie is real.

all doing the best we can to keep this country from being "drowned" along with the government "in a bathtub" by the rethugs.

:hi:

You've sacrificed more than most of us have for this country. For that, you have my undying respect.

I have a cousin (1st Infantry, 2nd Brigade) stationed in Germany who's been deployed to Iraq once and is looking at another 1-year deployment. He's proud to serve, but he has doubts about how we're handling the situation in Iraq. It's encouraging to see other soldiers who, while wanting to defend their country, have similar doubts.

Again, I want to thank you for what you've done. Whether I agree with the decisions this administration has mede or not, I respect the men and women who defend our country.

and thank you for serving. :patriot:

I will certainly keep fighting FOR MY COUNTRY......in fact, far as I'm concerned.....I have only just begun!

We're here because we love this country, and actually would like to have it back. Having a Constitution would great...doncha think?

So thank you for your service and the service of all of your friends. I teach, and plenty of my old students are over there now.

Yeah, the intell was twisted from the start. At DU and other forums we tried to get the word out, but nobody could hear us back then. They barely can hear us now. What's it gonna take? A 27 year veteran of the CIA called Rummy a liar in public, and the what passes for news in this country flew into a flutter about bird flu. We've all got our work cut out.

Oh and about Abu Ghraib: policy starts at the top. We must take back at least one branch of congress, hopefully the House because we have more allies there with better spines. Right now, we've got 70 vets running for congress and if we can just some of them elected the world will be a better place. How can we do that? Boots on the ground my friend; boot on the ground. It's going to take everyone of us to pull this off, but change comes one heart at a time.

dmesg, I salute you!
:patriot:

K&R (naturally)

Can somebody tell me what "K & R" means?

In addition to being a jarhead I'm also an old-school UNIX programmer, and "K&R" still means "Kernighan & Richie" to my eyes.

"K" means "kicked". Whenever a new message gets added, the post goes back to the top of the list.
That way, more people can notice it.

"R" means "recommended". Your post goes to a special section if it gets 5 rec's or more. Then, even MORE people get to see it and it s recognized as important.

Hope that helps.

Welcome to DU!
:toast:
:hi:

Was my bible too for a long time. Oh, and the kernel won't panic if we can just get it to stop thrashing and start paging. Hopefully this November we can swap out and garbage collect and keep going without a crash.

-Hoot

Thank you, BabylonSister for reposting these so those of us who missed them the first time around could get to see them, and appreciate the heartfelt emotion and intelligence that is behind them.

:patriot:

The inspiration of starting this thread was, in and of itself, truly awesome. But the fact that our Sister has coaxed dmesg into joining the conversation is beyond the beyond!

Again, welcome to DU, dmesg!

As for Babylonsister, check out what I said in Post #46 (I think I've got the number right).

When I said you inspired symphonies, THIS is what I was talking about! Aren't the cellos in perfect harmony with the French horns tonight? And I must say the violins never sounded so sweet!

What is an orchestra without a conductor? What is DU without Babylonsister? Just a bunch of musicians, waiting for the baton to set the harmony in motion.

Thanks again, Babylonsister!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am stone cold silent by what my friend Nancy has said. WOW!
Thank you, my friend!!! More than you will ever know!

That really hits home!

My husband often refers to me as his "Little Argentine Firecracker", to which I always respond that my two ex-husbands and the entire population of Argentina would disagree heartily!

What you have done here tonight has been truly remarkable. This thread has (as you can see by the responses) encouraged so many of us to keep up the good fight, and inspired us to ... well, let me say it in words more eloquent than I could ever conjure up. It is from a poem by someone named 'Anonymous' (who was apparently VERY prolific) on the topic of friendship:

"I love you for putting your hand into my heaped-up heart, and for passing over all of the small, petty things you can't help dimly seeing there, and for bringing out into the light all of the beautiful belongings no one else had looked quite far enough to find."

You have the gift, my Babylonsister, for finding those 'beautiful belongings' -- and you certainly brought them out 'into the light' tonight.

Even worse is the realization that most Americans won't get it, ever. Welcome to the humanistic, environmental, artistic world of people who reached a point where they actually had to think.

Now we fight for the rest of our lives and then we die as the same old human struggle continues. I think about it everyday, every hour; it's the curse of using your mind and body.

According to the people who currently order others to kill, you should not ever question it.

Sir! No Sir! - The GI Revolt
http://www.sirnosir.com/
The story of how active-duty American GIs, in their thousands, created a massive, unprecedented movement against the war in Vietnam that could not be stopped.
http://chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=1223


And it looks like it's happening again:

http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/

"We stand appalled by the deceitful behavior of the government of the United States and, in particular, its widely known malefactors. Lying, cheating, stealing, delivering evasive statements and quibbling not only has demeaned these deceivers and the United States of America, but has placed vast numbers of innocent people in deadly peril.
We will not serve the lies."
http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/ourpurpose_2.htm

but it was the principle of the thing. That's one of the most moving notes I've read in a long time, even here on DU where we have so many good writers.

Thank you for your service, dmesg, and thank you especially for recognizing our patriotism, which is under constant attack by people who don't know the meaning of the word. It's an old story to those of us who have been around long enough. They've been doing it ever since Vietnam, and they've been WRONG ever since then too.

....a message:patriot: that is so timely and yes very needed as well.:loveya:

I have an honest question though. I sometimes find it hard dealing with those "lazy idiots" as I privately call them who choose to buy the WH Idiot's line time after time without even bothering to check his words out to see if they are even partially true. Not all the time but occasionally I find the sarcastic attitude of "what rock did you just crawl out from under" attitude creeping into my words. So my question becomes how does a true "patriot: like yourself deal with those types??

I truly want to know because I'm beginning to get "burned out" by having to constantly educate these :spank:"lazy idiot":spank: types who are just now:wtf: waking up to the fact that the WH Idiot has been lying to them all along. They aren't waking up out of any concern for our country either:banghead: They are ONLY waking up because the shit is now hitting their personal lives in the form of higher gas prices and reduced freedoms that cramp their style.:grr:

Those who have first hand knowledge need to share their experiences with sites such as DU because the media is no longer fulfilling its obligation. Hopefully enough people will spread the word and apathy and ignorance will be overcome. We cannot allow the essence that is America to be lost.

You are in good company - there are hundreds and hundreds of vets on this board.

I just want to share something with you.

This article appeared in my Sunday paper. On the front page.

I know some here won't like it because the dad praises what Bush did, but please try to look past that, and see how the treatment of soldiers coming home from doing what they were told to do, can affect a family for a full generation.

Here is an excerpt. This family is from the area I live in. I am sure he doesn't appreciate my bumper stickers, but I can certainly appreciate his story:



I am glad that, if nothing else, we have learned from our mistakes this once.

I'm busy combing through it, atm. gonna take a while though, Wall Of Text.

Thank you dmesg, for your words, and for your service to our country.

A machine does what it is told to do. It is the duty of a soldier to do his duty and to judge his commanders, for a true patriot will question, "What is best for my country and my people?", and will put that first. I am glad that you are home safe, and hope your service is ended. That you need never risk your life again for the lies of others.

And, really, there really is no such thing as a "dumb jarhead".
Just another veteran who has become sadder but wiser for his/her experience.

And if you need help of any kind, just ask. We've got your back.

:patriot:

and welcome to DU from a fellow Iraq Vet.

Now is not the time to stop fighting the cancer on this nation.

I thank you for your service too. And the rest of us fight right with you here in America in the other kind of war. The war for the soul of this nation.

Sonia

*shadow government*

I am kicking and recommending this thread because it speaks volumes of truth and has just helped to strengthen my resolve to fight for the progressive and PATRIOTIC cause.

Welcome home. You're right about the DU - people here value your service, and aren't afraid to say so. I would imagine that you're not the only jarhead that's come to the conclusions you've come to.

My family's loaded up with Naval Officers, and I can tell you that there's a fair bit of grumbling from them about the mess we're in.

The GOP would call anything that interferes with their politics, 'obstructionist' or worse. I'd call interfering with the agenda of those callous, stupid pricks 'American', with a capital freakin' 'A'.

BTW - thank you so much for your service. Unlike the people who got us in to this, you've the courage of your convictions, sir.

in the future, than he's already done. Thank you for what you've accomplished thus far, and bless you in your future endeavors!

One of the saddest things to me is how this nation has treated (and still treats) our vets. There has been minimal funding for VAs and nobody even wants to discuss how the soldiers left disabled by their service will cope once they are back here stateside. It is a disgrace. I have to admit, however, that VA funding has historically never really been a priority for either party. This disgrace began a long time ago and neither side has corrected it.

Currently, if you are a vet and need medical treatment, you can wait more than a YEAR to get into a VA. I know for a fact that it has been discussed with any number of Congressmen and NOTHING has been done about it.

These men and women in our military, the military families, and our reserves give up so much for us, and this is how we repay that sacrifice? It is disgusting.

To all who have served, I respect you, I honor what you gave up for us all, and not all of our citizens have forgotten what you do for us.



Laura

I don't post alot... but I do know that there are a great bunch of people here.

and thank you for your service. I grew up in an Army town, have family that served in the army and many friends who have served or are serving in the military (navy, army, marines, air force).

and I hate how this Admin is trying to give them the shaft...all the while proclaiming that THEY support the troops.

Thank God you are home and that you found your way here!

I'm so happy to hear your side of things.

Everything about Bush and Cheney is hideous. What they have done to this country, to the good people of the CIA and they way they have severely tarnished the reputation of the office of President of the United States is beyond deplorable.

Can you shed any light on how our people in the service are being treated over there? They are constantly on my mind and with recent reports of bad water, no water, dwindling food supplies, insufficient vehicle and body armor.

How are they doing personally?

We have parents and siblings of soldiers on this board. They astound me daily. I doubt I could ever be so strong as they are.

Can you shed any light on how our people in the service are being treated over there?

Sadly no. It's been almost 3 years since I was over there (this has been a slow rage building in me) and my unit only just went back (sans my lucky DD-214'd ass).

Back in '03 we had all the stuff we needed. Good chow, plenty of water. No body armor, but that wasn't quite as crucial until right when I was cycling home. We did fine with flaks and kevlars. You're probably going to need to find a more recent vet to confirm some of the rumors I've been hearing about all that going downhill. Also, I'm trying to keep a line open to my buddies who are still in and shipped back over. The last thing I want to do is stress them with a whole bunch of questions, but if the subject comes up I'll make sure to ask.

Thanks.

Funny thing is, not long after I asked you this another thread on the topic popped up...


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1133397

I "believe it all", too, and I'm sticking with the party that will allow us the power to make it so. Dems!

Thank you for continuing to serve our country, and what it is (supposed) to represent by seeking truth and pushing forward.

Your humble demeanor is the mark of every great soldier and Marine I ever knew.

Thanks for holding up such a kind mirror to us.

Hekate

Welcome to DU. I know that there are some really good people over there who are committed to civic duty and are willing to fight and give their lives for our democracy. Not just the word "America", but the principles of participatory democracy. It breaks my heart that people like you are being murdered by our government. Good, ethical Americans are being manipulated and murdered by a crime syndicate that is pretending to be a government.

Just to let you know, it is people like you who have changed my mind about staying in this country. When Bush II was placed in the white house for a second time, I was really afraid for my life. I'm a lesbian and my partner is very visibily gay. I was afraid that America would become an unsafe place for people like us. I was going to try to leave the country with her so that we would be safe.

But I've completely changed my mind. What about all the people who can't leave and keep themselves safe? What about people who are poor, or people who have family to take care of? I've changed my mind now. I'm obligated to stay here and fight along side you. We'll make our country safe again.