Dean bravely takes on the right wing

Drudge's "alert" really made me curious. And those who appear to dislike Dean on this board certainly jumped on the "shameless" bandwagon.

But Dean's strategy appears to be to take on the religious right and point out that the actual teachings of Christ are compassionate.

I have been waiting for a candidate with the courage to take them on.
Finally.

-snip

"Christ was someone who sought out people who were disenfranchised, people who were left behind," Dean said. "He fought against self-righteousness of people who had everything . . . He was a person who set an extraordinary example that has lasted 2000 years, which is pretty inspiring when you think about it."

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/25/seeking_a_new_emphasis_dean_touts_his_christianity/

If it's part of who Dean is, and he feels that it can help him connect with southern voters, great! I don't expect Dean to use it as a devicive issue, as republicans do.

It could put republicans on the defensive.

I thought I had seen it all in my lifetime. This take the cake!

I particularly loved the one of him with his hand in the air, bringin' down the spirit o' Jebus.....classic!

South Carolina, a black church which he and his wife attended with Andrew Young and Charlie Rangel. I know that Charlie Rangel has endorsed Clark and Andy Young is going to (or has or is somehow affiliated with the Clark campaign -- I'm not keeping close tabs as I'm not supporting Clark.)

I have seen photos of Dean attending a black Baptist church and he was more or less dancing in his pew, looking as if he might shout out "Papa's Got a Brand New Bag" to the black woman near him. I've been willing to give him a pass on that but your constant harping on Clark's arm waving is making me think second thoughts.

How can it be wrong for a man raised Baptist to participate in a Baptist service? You keep raising this issue here (Clark waving a hand in the air while singing a hymn), ignoring the several black DUers who have told you it was fine with them, ignoring the fact that Dean was raised Episcopalian, is also white, and yet participated in at least one Baptist service in a black church, and was photographed doing so.

A black minister in New Hampshire has complained about politicians using his church for political photo ops, mentioning Dean specifically. (Dean asked the minister and his wife to pose for photos with Dean by the church door.)

Time to leave Clark alone on this, considering that your man Dean has been chastised by a black minister.

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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=285357

If anyone is interested

Kucinich has done more to openly campaign against the right-wing than Dean and has done more than Dean to speak up for the rights of workers and the homeless, not to mention that he's done more about election fraud. Dean may have made stump speeches out of Selection 2k but he wasn't the only one, as evidenced by what Kucinich has said a couple of days ago. Also throw in what he has done with regards to voting machines and you have someone that isn't just talk.

Dean is now taking on the religious hypocrisy and linking it to their policies.

I am happy that Kucinich is doing such a wonderful job. They all should be doing this.

Dean is the frontrunner and yet he is taking the religious right head on.

if God is an influence in your life, He is always an influence in your life, not just when you need help, south of the Mason Dixon line.

When I'm visiting my urologist, I don't talk to him about my golf swing. My golf pro, on the other hand, has little interest in my prostate.

as part of his message since early summer- That people in VT and CA have to care not only about schools for their own children but for schools for each other's and for those in Alabama and Texas- In order for the country to really be doing well, we all must be doing well.

If he uses different terms in different regions to say virtually the same thing, I commend him for making the effort to communicate with *all* of us in ways we can understand.

Your allusion to Dean supporters being hypocritical is unnecessarily insulting.

i said they should lay off using the term. i didn't say they were.
if you need clarification..dean is the hypocrite.

and you can call him names.

I can live with that.

In the spirit of the season.

You have to speak to people in Kansas in a different dialect than you do in, say, New York. The message is still the same, just like all religious faiths basically have the same premise. Dean, I am sure, has given a lot of thought to religious matters, seeing as he had to go through a process of conversion to Judaism. Confusing his addressing issues according to their geographical importance unfairly undermines his intention to be a candidate for "all people", as in "we the". There are different issues being prioritized in different regions, and there always will be. Dean SEES that.

"seeing as he had to go through a process of conversion to Judaism"

Dean is a congregationalist. His wife is Jewish, and their children, when given the choice, chose Judiasm, although they didn't have to 'convert' since they are considered Jewish through the bloodline of their mother.

Dean says he prays daily, although he doesn't attend church regularly.

he might be sincere. But to mention Jesus only while campaigning in the South raises suspicions.

I hate the religious right much. Anyhow, it is not a bad thing IMO at all for Dean to show his religious side. Hell dude been looking at some speeches made by Bobby Kennedy, in his one about the death of MLK he brings up let us say a prayer for our people and our nation, remiscent to DK's prayer for America I think. The religious right is top of the right wing scum in my book, I am glad Dean is taking them on.

Unless Dean switches his position and says he want to maintain tax cuts on the middle class, he's still going to lose no matter what else he says.

Of course, if it's framed the way you state it, he will lose. But if he frames it as "would you rather have universal healthcare or tax cuts" or "would you rather have lower property taxes and lower tuition for you college student or ..." then it will be a winner. Most middle class people got/get very little in the way of tax cuts and it was more than offset by the increases in local and state taxes increases that resulted.

Also, I like "would you like to have the same tax rates and the same economy that Bill Clinton had?"

"would you like to give up on Social Security and Medicare by creating horrendous deficits for our children or give up your tax cuts" "would you rather have the money to fight terrorism or have your tax cut"

He must and will appeal to the "better angels of our nature" not the greedy selfishness which the republican radicals feast on.

Dean doesn't say "I wanna raise taxes to the middle class."

It's the other candidates and their supporters who don't care if the hurt a potential nominee that do the dirty work for the neo-cons.

Dean loses unless he backs of his middle class tax hike position.

as being self righteous. He is the biggest finger pointer in the race.

made up by a handfull of viciously hateful folks, angry at Dean's success. Not like I havent seen this before.

Christianity", he will lose. Bush's ability to use his faith as a political tool knows no equal, and no one should even fall into the pit-hole of trying to "better" him on this score. The only thing that will happen is another "win" for the Republicans.

what planet are you on? Bush's "ability" is having the media in his pocket, he doesn't have the ability to con Barney the Dog. Without the media, he's shit.

thought he didn't want to make these things a focus in his campaign?

I might :puke:

Those words have been taken out of context so often that it's easy to lose sight of the fact that what Dean was saying is that we let repukes divide us by making everything about God, Gays and Guns. He wants to bring to the discussion unifying issues such as education and health care. I don't expect Dean will be using God, Guns and Gays to divide.

(on edit: spelling -- some of it, anyway.)

it's just getting confusing.

we'll have to wait to see what he has in mind for the gays...

But, I'm sure once that is realized, inuendo and derogatory statements about gays won't be far behind.

for the God, guns and gays stategy to work, he must embrace God and guns, as he has already done and distance himself from gays.

i bet you knew that already though....

signed one pissed off bear...waiting for the third shoe to drop.

NFM

here comes the third shoe?

the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" and "inasmuch as you are doing it for the least among us, you are doing it for me" and "go into a closet to pray" and "get the pharisees out of the temple"...etc. That's Christian ethics without the supernatural element.

to enter the kingdom of heaven than it is for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, I believe he'd best leave that verse of scripture out of his speeches.

is "taking them on?" I don't think so. He can't out-God Bush. The Religious Right is not going to vote for Dean, and no one else bases their votes on the candidates religiousity. As for invoking Bill Clinton's going to church, did that avert a single attack against him? Not that I remember.

By the way, where was Christ's example when Dean was advocating keeping 65 yr. old people standing behind cash registers for another five years?

You cant reason with a bully until you make them respect you.

I think one of the reasons they continued to ruthlessly attack President Clinton and Mrs. Clinton was because the Clintons felt it better to take the "high road" with the right winged crew who was spreading every fire that they could try on the Clintons.

One thing I think that whole situation revealed, if you pretend somethings not happening or that its not there, that doesnt mean its going to go away.

And various experts confirm that with bullies, if you ignore their actions, they most often will see that as fear or a green light to continue to harass the person until the bully gets what they want and/or need.

Dean has to invoke religion to appeal to the rest of the Dem party.

About 1/3 are angry hate-mongering "Bush is a nazi" types.

But another third are religious and are perplexed at the way the Dem party has come to embrace secular humanism.

Dean has to reach out to the rest of the party, or they will stay home in November.

And its not going to work for him. People everywhere are now starting to question his credibility and lack of intelligence on foreign policy.

As can be seen by some of the replies here.

Jimmy Carter campaigned openly as a Christian in 1976, and it didn't hurt him any. Unfortunately, the fact that he acted like a Christian in office probably contributed to the Pharisees beating him in 1980 :(

Jimmy's Christian message resonated well in a country that was recovering from the corruption of Watergate and the carnage of Vietnam. I have a feeling that if it weren't for the lies of the corporate media, a lot of people might be reacting in a similar way to what Dean says here. Because the current corruption in the government is far worse than Nixon and the carnage of the alleged "war on terror" will only get worse with another 4 years of Junior.

No doubt the Religious Reich Pharisees will attack Dean hard, probably using his signing of the civil unions bill to paint him as "the antichrist" (because they're always insisting that homosexuals are to blame for everything from 9-11 to their failed algebra class in high school). For Dean to contrast the actual teachings of Jesus Christ with the hatred these idiots spew was a great "pre-emptive strike" against idiocy.

Some may want to let the Repubicans slide on this, but I'm glad Dean isn't going to do that.

about Christ and his teachings. Even the right wing radicals. So they may decide to be "born again" Deaniacs. :)

you disagree with this strategy.

fine.

we are sooo screwed.

I continue to see Dean as an interesting candidate. If he can get his message on this to a majority of voters I do not see it hurting him and possibly helping in the South.

The only thing to remember is that religious charity is not connected to government policy in this country. In other words the republicans make a strong case for individual charity. Can Dean use his religious experience to make a case for changes in government policies? Or is this just a less ambitious political tactic?

Let's be clear about how this sort of thing works in practice, with the born-again fundies:

They have a personal relationship with their Savior. They are born-again, bathed in the blood of the lamb that washes away all sins. Sooooo, they go an do whatever the hell that they want, no matter how heinous, then they call 1-800-JEBUSSAVES and speak with The Big Guy and gain expitiation for whatever it is that they have done, and they send more money to their televangelist du jour.

It's a hell of a racket.

for me too. My point is that while I like what Dean says, I think this is a tough road for him to hoe.

And you can't call people hypocrats obviously.

I used to cringe every time I heard Bush I with his "thousand points of light" bs. It was such empty rhetoric, no real effort to do anything about real problems.

you wrote:
The only thing to remember is that religious charity is not connected to government policy in this country.

dean sez: "It's not a bad thing to have churches involved in delivering social services, but I think the president has used it to reward certain churches and make it less likely for others churches to prosper," he said.

so it seems as long as government money is given to all religions fairly, he's all for it.

fine, except that some atheists and agnostics might not like the idea of even more of their tax money going to churches.

to any church organizations. Again there is the question of whether Dean is playing politics or seriously promoting an agenda.

Church organizations should raise there own money. Tax money should be used according to public policy that we all have a say in.

So your point is well taken.

Cheers

rather than the "who's saved and who's not" club membership aspect. I am very comfortable with that and don't believe in the supernatural aspects of Christianity.

The Bush republicans wouldn't know Christian ethics if it bit them. They are all focused on who's allowed into the club and who's not. Sort of like their preoccupation with their country club by-laws.

www.networklobby.org
Network is a Catholic Social and Economic Justice Lobby organization.
Very good resource on issues.

when he calls the Republicans on their own hypocrisy.

They have had a free ride for too long.

Since a new post with this message would probably only survive in a forum where I don't spend much time, I'm slipping this in here and hopping at least a few of you will see it.

I just want to say what I think many of us think: that despite our confrontations on DU, we are all brothers and sisters in this together.

I wish each and every one of you peace and love.

- Herkey Fishbine

thanks for that nice message. I echo it to all.

Thank you.

the 2004 election will no doubt be very interesting if he gets the nomination. He'll probably continue his reckless, of the cuff, verbal attacks, alienating most Indys and moderate Repubs. But maybe, just maybe, we'll finally have an open discussion about the REAL condition of this country.

within the democratic party if Dean gets the nomination.

It may all be academic though. After 4 more of * this will be a one party nation. Sure the Pukes will allow a few puppet Democrats in the government, but they will be powerless and under the control of their right wing corporate masters. The theocratic robber barons running things will have to make sure the country maintains some external trappings of a democracy, just in case those pesky international human rights groups get a whiff of totalitarianism from these here parts.

for an open discussion about the REAL condition of this country.

yours seems to be Howard Dean and you don't even seem to be "for" anyone else.

they just want to attack because they are incapable of producing anything positive of compelling in support of anything, so they attack those who can and do... like Dean.

I think if someone is too ashamed to say who they support, nothing they say about other candidates is worth a damn.

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Oh wait, Dean is the doctor. ;-)

and to quote Wesley Clark.

And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office: men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condolzeezza Rice, Paul O'Neill--people I know very well--our president, George W. Bush.

and more Poop...

You've been alerted for comparing Dean to a Murderer.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

This sort of rhetoric is not called for.

Dean said a few things about Christ and charity, Christ and justice.

I see nothing wrong with that.

I am an atheist, but have found great inspiration from the words of religious progresives like Dr. King, etc.

It is Xmas, after all.

How about a little charity and grace, at least today?

God told him to attack Iraq an issue for the 04 campaign. The very idea Jesus would tell anyone to kill other human beings is absurd. Most Christians are unaware of bushies claim to this divine guidance.

If Bush did what Jesus would have told him to do, US soldiers would not be in Iraq.

By the way, welcome to DU!

I find it horrible that some people here have stooped so low as to use this issue in this way.

This was a great article. I am proud of him.

Also I will bet if I called someone a nutcase in two different threads I would be deleted very quickly.

I quote from the article:

"MANCHESTER, N.H. -- Presidential contender Howard B. Dean, who has said little about religion while campaigning except to emphasize the separation of church and state, described himself in an interview with the Globe as a committed believer in Jesus Christ and said he expects to increasingly include references to Jesus and God in his speeches as he stumps in the South."

At least he's blatant about the motivation for the new emphasis, no prevarication there.

The Religious Right does not believe in the seperation of Church and State. They want Theocracy. Nothing less is going to satisfy them, and Dean changing his style is not going to garner their votes.

I am anti-organized religion and believe very strongly in separation of church and state and I didn't have any problem with Dean's actions. I wouldn't have a problem if any of the candidates did this, even Bush*. Dean's statement about Jesus was completely appropriate. He is talking about reasonable religious behavior, not this crazy right-wing stuff that Bush* and his group have been doing. He is not pandering. And he isn't trying to shove his opinion of Jesus down anyone's throat, like a lot of RWers do. However, there are a lot of religious people in this country who would not feel comfortable with a president who didn't believe in God, so I think that all of our candidates are going to have to at least address their beliefs. He does state that he believes in separation of church and state. But, of course when Dean does it, he becomes Bush*-lite.

Taking on the right wing by becoming them?

Yeah, he cares for the least...change the age for SS, reduce Medicare benefits...Oh, but he's changed his mind...NOT!!

being Christian with being Republican. There are many progressive Christians out here in the real world who are tired of being taken for being members of the Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson fan club, just because they are Christians. Thank you and Merry Christmas.

for votes. Don't you think that cheapens one's faith? It also unfortunately smacks of *, who probably really does think he's God's chosen one, soliciting support from the true nutcase believers.

those Harlem Church photos from his campaign? That's about as bad as pandering gets.

You seem confused my dear Scott. See, if Dean talks about religion it's "pandering". If Clark does it, it's perfectly acceptable. If one quotes Clark in a criticism, that is "using Republican smear tactics". If one does same re: Dean, it is a perfectly acceptable method.

War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
We have always been at war with Eurasia.

Got it now? ;-)

Julie

over and over and over and over and over again. You keep assuming if you see black people, it must be Harlem.

For more details, see my post upthread responding to your first attack on Clark in this thread.

I would make.
1. There is a political angle to this. It is in the context of a political campaign, after all. However, I think it is just an effort to keep from being tagged as anti-religious. He is not trying to stuff his religion down other people's throats like some on the right wing try to do.
Which gets me to point 2. This is also an attempt to re-expand what we in this country consider Christianity. For a long time, with the help of the media I might add, the Christian Right has been able to put the message out there that they are the only Christians in this country. I for one am glad someone is standing up and saying that's not true, just by saying that he's a Christian too.
So, no I don't think he's pandering or cheapening his faith.

and of course you turned his post into something about religion.

As you can see from the following excerpts from a detailed, footnoted article about how Dean ran Vermont, Dean is far more right wing than left wing:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"Throughout the 1990s, Dean’s cuts in state aid to education ($6 million), retirement funds for teachers and state employees ($7 million), health care ($4 million), welfare programs earmarked for the aged, blind and disabled ($2 million), Medicaid benefits ($1.2 million) and more, amounted to roughly $30 million. Dean claimed that the cuts were necessary because the state had no money and was burdened by a $60 million deficit.9
....
Most of the Democrats in the legislature rebelled against Dean over the budget cuts, and he ended up depending on Republican votes to pass most of his proposals. At the time, a local Vermont newspaper wrote, "The biggest items on Dean’s agenda for next year are likely to provoke more opposition from the Democrats than the Republicans. Nevertheless, Dean said he feels no particular pressure to deliver the goods to his party or to promote the Democratic agenda."15

In the mid-1990s, Dean even aligned himself with the likes of Republican Newt Gingrich on his stance on cutting Medicare. He opined at the time, "The way to balance the budget is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut everything else."16
....
The Rutland Herald described how one protestor, Henrietta Jordan of the Vermont Center for Independent Living, "said it would be much fairer to raise taxes on people with expensive homes and cars, children in private school and a housekeeper at home than to cut programs that helped the 66,000 Vermonters living with disabilities."17 Dean responded callously, brushing off the pleas of Vermont’s most vulnerable by saying, "This seems like sort of the last gasp of the left here."18"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



my comment: I really find the Dean quotes above quite disturbing. The quotes and the article's detailed, footnoted enumeration of his tightfisted reign in Vermont should be engendering serious doubt in the minds of Democrats about his true political leanings.

The rest of this article is here:
http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml

when he said,"This pandering sickens me.Taking on the right wing by becoming them?" I thought that he was talking about Dean's religion since that is what this thread is about.
A point I would make about Dean's budget policies is, that the state can spend alot of money on the poor when times are good, but when times get bad it won't have any money to give people when they need it the most.

in order to find someone who attacks Dean... that's no beter than quoting drudge or Rush.

It shows how far one has to distort and misrepresent the facts in order to prop up baseless attacks.

Pandering, pandering, pandering. Sick stuff.

Rather I see Dean planing to do with religion the same thing he did with the flag... saying this does not belong only to the right wing.

Religious and republican are not synonymous.

You can be religious and be a democrat. That's not pandering. Dean is a religious guy... he's just not an asshole about it and doesn;t usualy focus on his faith.

However in the south, more folks want to know about a candidate's faith. I see nothing wrong with talking about it as a way to show that dems can be religious too.

www.liberalslikechrist.org

Thank you. O8) :toast:

as an example of "Christian" thinking. If you have looked at only a bit of the site, you may not have seen this.

As it is now structured, the site will never convert a conservative Christian to liberalism. It is also highly offensive to Catholics with his bitter attacks on the Catholic Church which ignore problems existing in other churches.

Sadly, his idea of showing why Christians should be liberals appeals to everyone at DU -- "Yeah, let's make those right-wing assholes see that Jesus was a liberal!" -- but his other idea of showing why liberals should be Christians is never mentioned here, because Christianity is not really too popular with many DUers.

Welcome to DU, MFlorence! I hope you won't be discouraged by the Christian bashing that goes on here. There are some of us who are Christian liberals but we are a minority. Perhaps Dean's support of Jesus will change that. ;-) At least his supporters are voicing support for religion now, which is welcome.

""Christ was someone who sought out people who were disenfranchised, people who were left behind," Dean said. "He fought against self-righteousness of people who had everything . . . He was a person who set an extraordinary example that has lasted 2000 years, which is pretty inspiring when you think about it."

He acknowledged that he was raised in the "Northeast" tradition of not discussing religious beliefs in public, and said he held back in New Hampshire, where that is the practice. But in other areas, such as the South, he said, he would discuss his beliefs more openly."

Once again he states who he is and what he intends to do and why....but people are trying to make political hay out of it, as if there were somthing wrong with discussing subjects with people in the way they are most comfortable. :shrug:

In fact Dean is so religiously tolerant that his wife and children are Jewish.

Can you imagine a right wing fundi who would tolerate his wife and children having a different faith than him?

Go Dean!

Dean is doing a very fantastic job of taking back that which the right wingers have co-opted, like the flag patriotism, and not faith.

Good for Dean! Let folks know that they can be religious, patriotic, flag waving Americans and still vote democratic. Do not let the right wingers claim sole rights to those things... even if some folks on Du want badly to help the right wingers do so by attacking Dean for being religious.

Since he is Bush Lite.

so there

Take a look at these disturbing Dean quotes, and tell me that Dean is anything but Right Wing:


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"Throughout the 1990s, Dean’s cuts in state aid to education ($6 million), retirement funds for teachers and state employees ($7 million), health care ($4 million), welfare programs earmarked for the aged, blind and disabled ($2 million), Medicaid benefits ($1.2 million) and more, amounted to roughly $30 million. Dean claimed that the cuts were necessary because the state had no money and was burdened by a $60 million deficit.9
....
Most of the Democrats in the legislature rebelled against Dean over the budget cuts, and he ended up depending on Republican votes to pass most of his proposals. At the time, a local Vermont newspaper wrote, "The biggest items on Dean’s agenda for next year are likely to provoke more opposition from the Democrats than the Republicans. Nevertheless, Dean said he feels no particular pressure to deliver the goods to his party or to promote the Democratic agenda."15

In the mid-1990s, Dean even aligned himself with the likes of Republican Newt Gingrich on his stance on cutting Medicare. He opined at the time, "The way to balance the budget is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut everything else."16
....
The Rutland Herald described how one protestor, Henrietta Jordan of the Vermont Center for Independent Living, "said it would be much fairer to raise taxes on people with expensive homes and cars, children in private school and a housekeeper at home than to cut programs that helped the 66,000 Vermonters living with disabilities."17 Dean responded callously, brushing off the pleas of Vermont’s most vulnerable by saying, "This seems like sort of the last gasp of the left here."18"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



my comment: I really find the Dean quotes above quite disturbing. The quotes and the article's detailed, footnoted enumeration of his tightfisted reign in Vermont should be engendering serious doubt in the minds of Democrats about his true political leanings--he is clearly Right Wing.

The rest of this article is here:
http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/dean.shtml

stereotype of an elite seculr N'eastern ultra-liberal and all attempts to overcome this are anologous to Michael Dukakis in his tank.

these pathetic attempts by dean to overcome his natural unappealing self serves as a reminder.

?

How is this like Dukakis and the tank? What is the connection?

With Bush pandering to the Ten Commandments/ Fire & Brimstone Christians and Dean (or whomever) advocating a Sermon on the Mount view of Christianity.

New name for the Bush Corporate Cronies: The Money changers.

If Dean is as compassionate toward the poor and less fortunate, why does he blame the poor for being lazy and drug-addled? He even says "We don't need Liberals like Marian Wright Edelman telling us what to do." Gee. Such statements are closer to Bush than most Democrat's thinking. It certainly doesn't sound like someone who "Represents the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party."

... and Dean, with good reasons aside, is following them into it. Republicans are masters at creating wedge issues, and Jesus Christ (lord help us) is one of them.

Rest assured--he knows what he's doing.

Dean's a pandering sham.

it is such a big deal for Dean to reference his faith? He is allowed to do that.

Howard's right on the separation of Church and State.

I love me that old time religion!

How did you miss Kucinich, then?