To all the American Idol detractors, have you ever considered

are few things beyond it's mindless, distraction value that you're so quick to dump into various threads?

The first one is that anytime you paint with a broad brush, you cover people who don't deserve it and probably don't appreciate being called stupid - which closes them down to anything else you have to say - party of Big Tent indeed, just as long as we're all in lockstep agreement.

But here's the really important point that you missed. The majority voter on the show are 13-16 year olds - not old enough to drag to the polls this year - but they are being trained that their votes can count for something vs their parent's cynical view that one vote won't make a difference. Thank about the future of that - where people think their vote will actually count. And if they are already getting 'invested' in a particular entertainer - and that entertainer talks out in a few years like Clooney or Dixie Chicks - what a tremendous influence that could have.

Maybe you didn't see this report just released about the folks your deriding for being so apethetic:



They are paying attention, they are pissed at what is happening. And calling them stupid vs building them up as they get involved is completely counterproductive to me.

(inspired by previous thread http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2646695&mesg_id=2648317

I enjoy the show and I am far from stupid. I teach gifted kids all day and the majority of THEM like the show. It's good entertainment. If you like music, it's fun to watch the progress of these young folks.

Anybody who labels it "stupid" is narrow-minded. (and stupid! ehehehh) Just say "it's not my thing" and be done with it!

How's that?

Really - it's not a bright show. I see more talent at the local nightclubs than on that show.

And, I understand that people need a break and use mindless shows and entertainment to take said breaks; however, what bothers me and other DUers is that the news media is covering this more than more important issues and more people are throwing their whole lives into it instead of demanding better for themselves.

That's the rub, Grannie.

It's not that I really CARE that people watch the show - it's that the vast majority of them don't do anything meaningful (not you or your kids, or my lovely friend Patsy Stone, of course).

:hi:

And some of them scream their songs. I mean, what I'd like to see is a sing-off of great cathedral choirs doing classic chamber pieces. But that ain't gonna happen!

And I agree..it doesn't warrant more than a five minute update and maybe more on Entertainment Tonight. It ain't news!

Might have something to do with the FUBAR state of the nation.

What % of political voters watch American Idol? My guess is it's below the national average.

Correlation /= causation.

between the American Idol voter and the electoral-politics voter. The idea that American Idol teaches kids to vote, and they then go on to vote in elections is an interesting hypothesis. But I think one could argue equally persuasively that the predominance of user friendly pop culture absorbs interest that would otherwise have gone in a more-constructive direction, thus making people heavily involved in pop culture less likely to get involved in politics.

I'm unsure whether either of these ideas holds any real water, I don't believe any study has been done to prove or disprove either possibliity. Nor do I, in my own opinion, think either of these possibilities is necessarily the truth. I'm just pointing out that there are other sides to the story.


Full disclosure: In fairness, I think I should point out that I don't watch American Idol, and I think it's insipid. Thank you.

if they can vote on their cell phone!

So wouldn't only being able to vote once, in an election seem pointless to them?

"And now a word from our new sponsor DIEBOLD!" :rofl:

But I don't waste time telling other people how much I hate their entertainment choices. Actually, since I haven't seen AI, I don't hate it!

Some may not understand why I'll be wondering all summer about that marble foot with 4 toes.

by a guest, that the average voter is middle aged.

Since I've never watched American Idol I have no comment on the show.

As clearly demonstrated by the flash animation movie linked below:
http://www.youtube.com/v/1N_aJr3C-Qo

everyday and these "idols" couldn't even hold a candle to 99% of them. It represents nothing I can get behind, such as corporations letting preteens setting the market bar at such a low level that real artists could never achieve commercial success and earn a living as a consequence.

originality goes entirely unrewarded.

it is cover or die. I think that's what keeps folks watching...the familiar music, and hearing it interpretted differently. Or badly.

I can walk into any karaoke bar in my region and find the same talent.

the guy who won this year has been a fixture on the Alabama bar and club circuit for years. He's collaborated with Keb Mo and James Brown among others. And the runner-up last year had also been struggling to make it for about a dozen years. And Chris Daughtry had been singing in a Christian metal band too. They all write their own songs too.

are propelled to the top immediatly, singing the same crap, just recycled.

why it's mocked. I haven't watched it but I would if I felt like it.

No one has to do highly intellectual or political activities all of the time. In times of political stress I think it is good to have an escape, to not stay in high stress. If this show does it for some, that's great. People should enjoy themselves, it's good for us.

I wouldn't mock what the outlet is as long as it doesn't hurt someone.

But I'm perfectly capable of watching Survivor and caring about my government and Constitution, both at the same time.

but mostly because I'm afraid I might like it and get hooked on it. I have enough shows I just HAVE to watch: Prison Break, 24, The Unit, Sopranos, Big Love, House...

It's just not my cup of tea. I have no problems with others watching it. My problem is the amount of media coverage it gets. It has become more important to the television "news" stations than other things that have greater, long term implications for the health of our democracy.

I do get what you are trying to say, and I can see that your point of view has a lot of validity. I'm just angry that CNN and MSNBC will cover American Idol as if it was more important than anything else going on. They us American Idol to help dumb down America, and that's just a shame.

in voting and caring about the performers,

when the American Idol winner disappears after two years because the show failed to jump-start their career, will these kids come to see the time as wasted?

It's a fad. It will go away. Its effect on the nation is nil.

I think the increase in voting is because of young americans' fear of perpetual war, the rumors of a draft, etc. They are the first generation to grow up on-line. They are more aware and better informed, despite the corporate media, that my generation was at the same age when there was another war and an active draft.

I hope the upcoming generation can accomplish what my generation aspired to, then abandoned.

http://realitytv.about.com/od/wherearetheynow/ss/idolwinners.htm

you can read about each one and see where their careers have been and are going. I'd have to say that AI has brought them tons of success. Top numbers on album charts and single charts, grammy awards or nominations, Broadway shows, TV movies ect....

the "music" aspires to the maria carey/celine dion MOR wing of cash-machine pop. vocal theatrics, no soul.

1. if you enjoy it for the music, you have bad taste.

2. if you enjoy it for the drama & the 'human interest', you need a life.

3. if you enjoy it for the schadenfreude, you need to turn off the TV.

pane et circenses - distractions for the american plebian class.

and don't give me 'its just mindless escapism' - there's lots out there more edifying - meditation is also 'mindless'.

both my 17 year old & 20 year old watched it. they fall into categories 2 & 3. they heard the lecture, but they get to make their own choices.

in that genre'. They do Broadway, Burt Bachrach, etc. Kind of odd hearing those songs from kids that young. But I guess you don't watch it so you wouldn't know that.

However, it IS a distraction after a long day tending to other folks' children. I can put my feet up and watch something where nobody dies.

And I am nothing if not plebian.

T-Grannie (Queen of the Plebes)

it turns my stomach. caterwauling.

it is solidly middlebrow, and frankly, intended for people who don't like music that much.

It is intended for people who like THAT kind of music. And who might think what YOU listen to is caterwauling.

For example, I love anything baroque, but don't play me opera. I can't abide it. Highbrow as hell. So highbrow it shoots right over my head. And while I admire the Dixie Chix and their politics, I think THEY sound like cats! Different strokes.

Pop music is called pop because it is popular, of the people.

i beleive there is good & bad, and that standards exist outside of individual taste.

i will never admit that there is any equivalence between tripe like kenny g & sublime artistry like coltrane. between john williams & beethoven. between celine dion & aretha franklin. between motley crue & led zeppelin.

probably because there is no such thing as too highbrow for me.

opera was pop in its heyday.

It grates on my nerves. One thing I have found as I get older is that I appreciate more types of music more. I have come to love bluegrass because it is the music of the area where I live. And while it has roots in other countries, in this form, it is so American.

Never heard Motley Crue, but grew up on Led Zeppelin. I generally don't like screamers like Dione, and I don't care for "curley cues" like Whitney Houston puts in everything. And oh, dear God, my kids loved 1990's punk and ska. Ska was okay. Punk was...there are no words.

And if I ever go to hell I will know it because they will be playing Stravinsky. And I'll bet you like him? I guess I need melody. Less is better for me in music. I don't even like some Chopin because it is just too much up and down the piano. But a well sung "Danny Boy" or "Red is the Rose" will put me on my ear. (if I'm tipping a few, that is!)

but it sounds like we are both 'Lyrics' - lovers of melody. when the thread gets lost in modern classical in favor of invention & novelty of form i lose interest. late stravinsky seems so... multi-vectored. give me erik satie anyday.

i know my spouse is not - we may love some of the same artists, but if i discuss lyrics, she'll say she never paid attention to the words. to songs she's head a 1000 times. it stuns me. she likes rhythm and tonality. we disagree on bob dylan & neil young beecause she can't stand the SOUND of their voices, songcraft aside.

the 'curly cues' are what i hate about modern pop - melismatics. i love that word.

When I have, it's been for the "mindless entertainment" factor - especially early-on when the William Hungs are on parade. But I don't set my clock to it, nor do I set my VCR. My kids and I took an interest the year of Clay Aiken and Ruben Studdard. I was mildly interested this year because Taylor Hicks was NOT the standard cookie-cutter cutesie-poo girl. It was nice to see an older (and gray-haired, at that) candidate win one, for a change. In this cosmetic world where it's young and pretty (and usually blonde) that gets you places, this outcome was kinda refreshing, I must say. The pretty-girl runner-up will do JUST FINE, thank you. Those types usually do. She'll replace Mischa whateverhername is on "The OC" or get her own TV show on "E" or something, based on her youth and nice looks and pretty hair. I think it was Kimberly Caldwell - one of the also-rans from the Studdard/Aiken year - who's done very well (has her own show now), and I thought she was a self-centered brat-child. But she was one of the dime-a-dozen crowd: young and pretty and blonde (extra points for blondeness) and had nice hair, so she was bound to get picked up by somebody.

One thing that galls me is how someone like her gets all kinds of great stuff out of this, while I know musicians and singers and performers who can sing/act circles around little twinkies like her, and they don't get any breaks at all. They've paid their dues - in many cases enough dues-paying to cover people like her who haven't, and they're FAR more deserving. But she'll have the TV show and they won't.

I wish this weren't such a superficial society. When I was pregnant and found out it was gonna be a girl, all I prayed for was that she be pretty - because I knew THAT would help her go places if she wanted to. I didn't care if she was dumb as a rock. But it's because we live in that kind of world. I am grateful that both my children are growing into eye-candy territory, and actually, they both have brains to go with it. They'll have their problems throughout their lives, but at least THAT won't be one of them. Like it or not (and believe me, I DON'T), you have an edge if you're pretty in this world, and in this society in particular.

As to the voting issue - they're encouraged to vote early and often. I wonder what that teaches them. But if it gives them ANY notion at all of the importance of voting, maybe that'll translate to such things as political contests. If they give a damn. But that's the catch. WILL they give a damn about a conventional election as opposed to voting for the next "American Idol"?

2.I don't need a life.
3.I'm not German.

As much as I enjoy CSpan and the cable news shows, thank goodness I don't have to watch them 24 hours a day.

Now that AI is over for another season, I will miss the sillyness of the tryouts and the weekly competition of the kids singing their hearts out. But most of all I will miss the phone calls during the show from my daughters and my grand kids as we all like to "critique" the performances amongst ourselves. I think that is the real secret of American Idol. It seems to be a show that all age groups enjoy.

... about voting. However, it is the mean-spiritedness of the show that I cannot get past.

They actually go out of their way to show clips of sad deluded folks who think they can sing, just so Simon can make a sarcastic remark. Hey, if making smart-assed sarcastic remarks is a talent, I should be making millions. :)

Beyond that, the music, like most radio-play pop music of our era, is insipid, pedestrian crap, and I actually feel sorry for folks who choose to eat hot dogs all the time when the steak is out there if you just look for it. When I was young, the steak got on the radio. Now, mostly only the hot dogs do.

It's true, it is not particularly noble to denigrate people for their entertainment choices. Or is it? To say that there is a value difference between some forms of culture and others might be elitist, but to say that all of it is of equal value is ludicrous.

the folks they make fun of early in the show? Some of them are pitiful. I usually don't start watching it until they are down to 12 or so.

I really don't think of it as a form of culture, per se..using the word to mean high brow entertainment, art, etc. What interests me is the progress the kids make in their skills. Also I am interested in how the public appears to perceive the various "types." It is always surprising when some of the least attractive ones (like this year's Kevin, who was a real nerdy type, very petite, with glasses) survive for so long. They apparently get very loyal fan bases. One thing I rather enjoy is hearing pop music covered by other artists. More than once I have taken a liking to a song I've heard for years (for example Levon by Elton John) when I hear it sung by another artist. And that's nice.

It is also something I can talk to my students about, and that's good.

Now, when I click the CD changer in the car I'm NOT playing the latest finalists from AI. It's likely to be Bach, Bach and more Bach.

But I do like American Idol.

- I sing in a local choral group and we all love AI. It is our pre-rehearsal topic of conversation. We will discuss song choice - dynamics - pronunciation - the individual pro's and con's of each contestant such as too much vibrato for one, too little breath control for another, bad key changes, etc. Then we all try to figure out who will go home and why.

Genre's ranged from show tunes, music from the 40's, Elvis songs, Stevie Wonder - the list goes on and certainly hasn't been boring. It was fun to try to figure out what song suited which singer best and I really enjoyed hearing how each singer would put their own signature on songs that we've all heard 1,000 times to make it uniquely their own. Sure, some were better - or worse - than others and I always felt bad for the contestant that "had a bad day".

Will AI change the world? Not my world but it certainly changed the future and opened opportunities for several young men and women. They provided me with a few hours of harmless and non-fattening entertainment per week which I very much appreciate. And, I wish each of the contestants success for the future as they certainly worked hard for it!

SO true! That one should be said, read, and spread - a LOT.

in a more seemingly rational fashion.

I admit my post went to a place I didn't intend it to go. Poor wording? Poor tone? Poor connections? Poor framing? Whatever the reason, it went off track.

But I stand by my original intent.

AI, or any of the shows in that genre, or their viewers, are really not the issue. The issue is the seemingly collusive and considered morphing of these new reality shows into the 'news of the day'. AI differs mainly in the notion that the public gets to vote for the winners.

To look back a bit, I don't think anyone had anything more in mind than creating a cheap-to-produce show that sold lots of consumer crap. But when Survivor took off like a rocket. The imitators followed. As the buzz developed on Main Street, it was a quick leap to make the fake reality more real. It wasn't long before Survivor cast-offs were on what once were news shows. I watch the CBS morning show for no better reason that it follows my favorite early morning local news show. Some time ago, in place of actual news, there appeared a whole mini-Suvivor set and the 'newz' person sat down for what was to the unaided eye, a serious newz type interview with the cast-off du jour. Every week. Letterman, on the other hand, saw the silliness of it all, and refused to allow his show, unlike all the other talk and news shows on CBS, to be used as a cross-promo platform; Dave kept the 'survivor' off stage and interviewed the person in a very dismissive manner. The survivors no longer seem to be on his show.

Now, all of that can be - and probably should be - relegated to simple cross-promotion for the network's entertainment division. But in the last year or so, it has become so much more. Actual news shows, unrelated to the network carrying the actual fake reality show, have begun to give some serious coverage to them - as if they were, in fact, news. And that's kinda scary.

There was a report here on DU that MSNBC gave 45 minutes of coverage to American Idol. I didn't see it, so I can't vouch for the report. However, in watching MSNBC later in the day, the coverage was surely there. Not one 45 minute block, but certainly for a few minutes each half hour. Now, AI is a show on Fox's entertainment channel. Why, one might ask, was MSNBC covering it? The news value? That case can be made, to be sure. But the incredible depth and frequency of the coverage was much more akin to cross promotion than coverage of what, at best, is a popular culture story. And it surely could not have been for ratings, as some suggested. Were that the case, one would also have to see promos for the upcoming coverage. There was none. MSNBC was simply showing the tripe as .... news. I didn't watch, but I suspect CNN did pretty much the same. Fox covered it as well, I assume, but that's different. Its their show.

Further, just a week or two ago, there was a whole 'newsworthy' flap about some voting irregularities in the prefinal round of AI. Some 55,00 (I think it was) votes went either uncounted or wrongly counted due to some 'communications failure'. Does anyone not see the tragic irony in that? This 'irregularity' was not only covered as a news fact, it was ***investigated***. I'm sorry, but that is simply so far over the top that my hair hurts just thinking about it.

So you see, we have the media making harmless - and larely meaningless - television entertainment into serious news and even making an arcane bit of phone voting into a front page story.

For me, redemption was a follow-up story away. A comparison of that screw up with the 00, 02,and 04 cycles, with a look forward to 06. Responsible news would have done that.

So, there are only two conclusions that seem to follow. First - I am completely off base and need to check myself in. Second - I am not mistaken and there is, in fact, some collusion, intentional or otherwise, in making this tripe pass as news.

Bread and Circuses as Shiny Things. Intentionally so.

And if the intent is there, it was, as I said above, not the original intent. Rather, if the intent is there, it happened when 'someone' noticed the whole genre, noticed what was happening to its popularity on Main Street, and decided to try to make some use of the phenomenon. We know other events have been so capitalized upon. I see no reason to think this might not be the same case.

And people are following it.

It represents, if **nothing** else, a competition for any message we might wish to put forth.

A few people in the en fuego thread I started challenged me to compare this distraction to the distraction of sports. Was the AI finale not just the same as the Super Bowl? Or Game 7? Or the Belmont? Or the Stanley Cup?

In a word: No.

Sports' distractive nature is rightly worthy of its own thread. What seems germaine to this issue is that sports is virtually as old as mankind. Except for the big events, it occupies a set segment in the nation's newz delivery systems. It is so institutionalized that, indeed, it doesn't distract. It is, quite simply, just there.

AI, Et Al, is new. It can be argued that it is a growing insidious form of distraction. But if it is harmful for other than its inherent nature, something can be done about it. My thread was intended to ring that alarm bell.

It didn't.

For that, I am sorry.

.... need to turn in your angry clown logo, mister. :) :) :)

most watched show (Superbowl, NBA finals, Masters, Will & Grace Finale) then I can understand the "media" reporting about it. Their job is to increase advertising revenues - through whatever buzz and hype they can muster up. No non-Fox station can afford to ignore it, they might lose veiwership to a competing station that is covering. At the least, it's certainly more "newsworthy" than Scott Peterson, Natale Holloway and all the other absolute non-issues that get totally overblown

Remember the initial reports when the guy was shot by an Air Marshall on the plane because he had a bomb? Every single station was covering it - absolutely breathless and "live, breaking". I think it was Jon Stewart that compiled all those initial media reports together that really put it into perspective - every single reporter was reporting "we don't know what is happening, but something is and we'll be right here live to find out"

Corporate ownership of the media isn't really any different than most of the other corporate crap we have to deal with these days - all of them are totally focused on stockholder returns THIS fiscal quarter, with no thought to how it impacts the business long term - the return of the robber barons.

And it's not like the corporate M$M is only reporting AI (and clones) as "news" - look at how often we don't get reports about things like the DSM, any exploration of the lies that led us to war. I think your frustration with this issue goes way beyond AI - AI might be a symptom of the problem moreso than the cause.

it's pretty much tripled the damage MTV has been doing to utterly destroy music. It's complete shit. It's viewers are being fucking morons and most of them are fucking morons, who need to get fucked.

what comprises American Idol is real talent.

Either way, you're right, they are being taught how to vote in the American system. Not only to they think the candidates have talent but that they are real music. The analogy here is so stunning in that they are voting for corporate whores.

Kinda like our candidates in this day and age.

A bit like this process ...

To do so would be to stretch the limits of inference and credibility.

an American Habit for young people.

You've got it backwards.

the show sucks,is a fraud and is sympotmatic of our celebrity obsessed,dumbed down society.

be as bad for our youth as Elvis was? :eyes: The OP has a good point.

I agree that calling them stupid and apathetic does nothing. We need to stop marginalizing and start making positive foreward movement. Young voters are not nearly as bad as all that.

REMEMBER CLINTON on MTV???
IT WORKED!

If that happens I will go on live TV and pee my pants. 73% in a midterm? Yeah right.

especially in young people. People need to vote in REAL ELECTIONS.