Why no discussion

on the immigration bill from yest? I don't know what to think about it and was looking for info.

There is no honest effort whatsoever in the Senate bill to secure borders or reduce illegal immigration.

In contrast, there is an overpowering effort made to offer blanket amnesty, or earned amnesty to as many illegal aliens as possible, as well as increase future immigration as much as possible.

The end result will be worsened border security and greater suppression of American wages by the flood of new illegal immigrants into the country.

The Democratic Party may well lose any advantage they had in the November 2006 elections as a result of their complete sellout of the middle class and American workers.

I will vote for the opponent of every one of those who support this Amnesty farce. And I will actively contribute money to Senator Feinstein's and Boxer's opponents.

Their vote is a complete sellout of the American worker and is completely unacceptable.

Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

:applause: :applause:

I disagree with Howard on this issue..

I think the HOUSE bill is much better.

David

I think the House bill is better as well. I haven't heard what Howard Dean has said recently, but I was completely against his immigration position previously.

Illegal immigration suppresses wages. The addition of 7 million workers to our currently employed 143 million workers can't help but suppress wages. Supply always decreases price, in this case the price is workers' wages.

For more on this see Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

Scratch the guest worker program and the deportation.
The real bill should be secure the border and deal with what we have here now. Once we are certain we have absorbed the last 10-20 years of immigration we can consider more immigration. Wouldn't that make sense?
Of course no one proposes this so we are given a choice between 2 lame options.

I think we should 1st make sure we keep the problem from worsening, before we do anything with those already here. Prosecute employers for illegal hiring, secure the borders, and ditch the "guest worker" travesty.

What possible justification could there be to allow more workers in when we have this 12-20 million that we don't know what to do with now.

First things first. Let's ensure that the current 20 million doesn't become 40 million, 60 million, or 100 million. We can deal with everything else later. But we can't do anything to make an already bad situation worse. Though I have many reservations about the House bill, at least it shouldn't radically worsen the problem, like the Senate sell-out would.

Just remember, Bush's ONLY motivation behind doing anything about immigration was to get
his "guest worker" program implemented. Let's not give him that victory, because it would be a disaster for working Americans, suppressing real wages even more than they are already being suppressed.

Just say NO to S.2661 (The Senate's Immigrant Amnesty Bill.)

Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

Check out the following thread. There are over 196 responses and 9 votes for favorite topics. I think I actually posted the Senate vote tally there myself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2635672&mesg_id=2635672

Also, if you're interested in seeing an outside thread, see Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

Let me repost my previous letter with corrected links. A thread discussing immigration, that includes the Senate vote, can be found at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2635672&mesg_id=2635672

The "outside thread" link I previously posted was broken. Here's the repaired link:
Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

....Senator's or Representative's office (I'm not sure whether they said Rep or Senator) and the receptionist apparently claimed "There isn't going to be any real immigration reform, get over it."

The caller claimed she was left with the impression that the eventual aim is not to have a border at all anywhere in the western hemisphere. She went on to say something about the fact that it doesn't matter whether the majority of Americans like the idea or not.

Of course I can't vouch for how truthful the caller's claims are but it sure sounds plausible in light of what is actually going on in the House and Senate these days.

Did anyone else hear this particular caller?????

Something about this autonomous zone that will exist in the NAFTA region ... supposedly was some meeting in 05 with chimpo and the other leaders ... Check out any neo con site and you will easily find links ... I think the whole story is smoke personaly

to get away with NOT appointing conferees I don't think the American People will let them get away with it...

The Senate is smirking and doing whatever the fuck they want on this because only a small portion of them is up for reelection. The House on the other hand is getting a dose of reality since every single one of them is up for reelection and know they may get tossed out on their collective asses.

The most facinating thing about this debate.. is the fact that some are trying to turn this into a LIBERAL/CONSERVATIVE debate.. which it is not... Either you support BORDER SECURITY/ENFORCEMENT OF IMMIGRATION LAWS... or you don't.... this issue has NOTHING to do with LIBERAL vs CONSERVATIVE....

and being a Democrat or Republican is not going to help any candidate that is one the wrong side of it. The Congress knew that the people were pissed, but they had no idea how much and have been taken by complete surprise. The last time that Congress misread the voters this badly in an election year was 1994 with the Assault Weapons Ban. It was a bloodbath! Just like this year is going to be.

..if you take that attitude then you have to admit to yourself that you firmly believe the GOP stalwarts are the ones out there fighting for your rights and dignity as a working class stiff. This is just one issue.
Note the GOP stalwarts fight for your dignity by cramming through a billionaire tax cut and are already wording the next one.
Truth is ... they all like the idea of cheap labor.
That blows, but forced to choose, I will take the pandering of Ted Kennedy, doing the wrong thing for the right reason ... over Bill Frist who is just plain wrong.

Maybe this is just ONE issue.. but it is certainly one issue that congress needs to hear from each of us as individual Americans on.. Here is my OPEN LETTER TO CONGRESS>

I welcome comments and suggestions about my letter....

David

one issue. Take a look around. What is different today than yesterday (or last week)? Nothing right? Unless you were expecting the gestapo to be cruising the streets rounding up people who dont have the right stamps on their papers than the immigration issue isnt anything more than the gay marriage one was a few years back.
Its the group of issues, immigration, offshoring, falling wages the like, that we need comprehensive reform of. How we get there from here I dont know...

I'm sorry I did not see the provision in the House Bill calling for "rounding up people who don't have the right stamps on their papers"... we are talking about enforcement of our borders, and immigration laws... I don't know how you got there...

If you pass a bill saying people are felons then obviously we might expect someone to exercise those arrest warrants? Isn't that a reasonable expectation of the outcome of the avenue?

Not really.. since I am a Law Enforcement Officer... I can answer that with a little bit of authority... If I arrest an illegal alien on another charge, (which I do frequently), most common scenario is Driving under the Influence, Driving Without a License, Fraudulent Use of Tag, No Insurance, fleeing and eluding, leaving the scene of an accident...etc...etc.. I would simply add the additional charge, and let the process work

Remember I am TRYING REALLY HARD TO DIGEST THIS MYSELF ... :)
But ...
Why is it these people come here? Yeah, work hard, better life blah blah blah. I dont buy that although its part of it.
I see the number one reason these people come here is because its common knowledge noone will do anything about it. Sort of like if I go for a walk through farmer freds orchard I know that I shouldnt eat his apples but what the hay right, noone is going to make a big deal about it ...
So now, AFTER THE FACT, sometimes by decades, we decide to get real tough and round up everyone retroactivly? Isnt that like doing a catscan on my stomach and executing me because 15 years ago I ate some apples because at the time noone cared?
Hmm .. weak argument but you see what it is?
I figure if I am going to be out in the fall pumping democratic candidates I have to get my mind around their rational and there is a middle here, I just dont have my mind around it.

I know several families right here in my community who have been here for years and were just recently deported. This issue being on the front page has definitely kicked our local INS office into gear.

Is that a bad thing..? Are you upset abut that?

The kids are US citizens, the parents are not.

Should we reward those who break our laws?

Do you have a family? Would you do ANYTHING you had to, including crossing the border illegally, to take care of them?

I know I would.

Our policies (NAFTA and CAFTA) have destroyed the economies in most Central American countries. Did you know the Mexicans no longer make money from growing corn? Do you also know that immigration laws were changed under Reagan making it nearly impossible to immigrate here from Central America legally? But you can still come here legally from Europe. Do you think that is fair?

Do you also think it is fair to deport Central Americans who are brought here on buses by employers like Tyson Foods and WalMart, who when caught, are fined piddly amounts (which they appeal instead of paying), instead of punishing the employers who bring them here?

Having laws is one thing. Fair laws is another and so is fair enforcement.

This whole breaking the law argument ignores the fact that much has been accomplished in the history of this country by those willing to break the law through civil disobedience. Throwing that tea into Boston Harbor was against the law. Cindy Sheehan has broken the law several times in the past year alone.

Yet we demonize poor Hispanics who are literally forced into breaking our laws to survive. Can't you see anything wrong with this picture?

we should just get rid of our borders completely and say EVERYONE IS WELCOME TO AMERICA ? I am very sympatheic to those who live in poverty in other countries but we just can't welcome them all to America.. if we do, America will be just like every other country...

i tried posting a jpg of my letter but is was rejected you can type this in your browser to view it

www dot angelfire dot com slash biz4 slash davidosborne slash letjpeg.jpg

or the PDF file is..

www.angelfire.com/biz4/davidosborne/imgletter.pdf

and eliminate the REASON they come here. We also need to make it nearly impossible for undocumented workers to be hired by predatory employers. They come for the jobs, not the free health care or social services (which they aren't eligible for anyway). Make those jobs impossible to get and a large portion of the problem is solved. When a manufacturing plant in the neighborhood where I work closed, the Hispanic population declined dramatically; they went back because their jobs were eliminated.

I also think we have an obligation to fix NAFTA so they can at least grow corn in Mexico again and make a profit from doing so. We made the mess, we need to clean it up.

I will reserve debate on NAFTA and CAFTA for another time.. This debate is about immigration.... and what I hear you saying is that we need to fix other Countries economies so they are just as prosperous as we are? ... and until we do, we need to OPEN OUR BORDERS for their citizens to come here?

If I am misinterpreting your position please let me know...

And NAFTA and CAFTA are a large part of the reasons they can no longer find work in their native countries.

Haven't you noticed how they have flooded across our border in the last decade?

So you can't ignore NAFTA and CAFTA.

And I will admit I supported both NAFTA and CAFTA. I have changed my mind, but you know what they say about hindsight.

Thanks I finally opened it okay.

I respectfully disagree with you though. The House bill would make me a felon for helping these human beings so I can't possibly support it. Most of us in the 'helping professions' are adamantly opposed to the House bill for that very reason. It was, however, the way we got excited about this issue. At the pro immigration rallies I attended here in my community, there were hundreds of social workers, medical workers, teachers, etc in attendance. We most likely would not have shown up in such large numbers had it not been for Sensenbrenner's bill. So he did manage to create a rather large group of supporters for the immigrants. I doubt that was his intent though. :)

I ask you again..Do you support OPEN BORDERS.. let everyone who lives in poverty come to America?

If you do, I respectfully say that you are being unrealistic...

I don't believe that providing care or "help" as you put it makes you a felon... in fact in makes you a very decent human being.... but we can't ignore the problem

It makes any US citizen who aids an undocumented worker guilty of a felony. I'm glad you think I am a decent human being, but (no offense) your opinion won't matter. I will still be committing a felony if that law is passed. And that is enough for me to refuse to support that law.

No we can't ignore the problem. I already told you I believe the answer is in going after the employers who hire the undocumented workers. I also think we should promote fair wage legislation and put teeth in that law. There is a contractor in my community who is paying day laborers $1.00 an hour to do construction work. That should be a felony, rather than what helping professions do to help them.

Get rid of the jobs, and they will stop coming. I know the immigrants. I am sure they will go home if they can't work here.

Think about this - if you are an employer and you have to pay a fair wage, who would you hire - a US citizen or an immigrant who doesn't speak English?

I also think the borders need to be more secure, but I doubt a wall or a fence will accomplish this. I also think we need to secure our ports. Remember the terrorists who flew planes into the WTC did not come here across the border. They came on planes and ships.

I tried breathing that logic into an immigration thread recently and was labeled a racist...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1302029#1302049

We simply do not have the infrastructure. The sewer system in Los Angeles fails on a regular basis, sending raw sewage into the ocean and sometimes the streets. This is easily predicted during tourist season when our population swells.

Turning ourselves into the next third world country will never help anyone else. We must strengthen our own country before we can offer help to others or we will all be in the same boat... one that is sinking fast.

That's because they had been here illegally for years.

Do we let bank robbers go if they've gotten away with it for years and we later catch them? Do they forgive parking tickets if you just never pay them? Do they forgive you for cheating on taxes if you've already gotten away with it for years? Are there any laws (other than immigration laws) that we just ignore because someone has gotten away with breaking them for years?

It's true that this is one issue, but it's one that could actually be settled in favor of the American worker.

I'm all for repealing CAFTA, repealing NAFTA, withdrawing from the WTO, and raising the minimum wage. But none of those worker sell-outs are going to be altered in the near future. Immigration, however, may very well be addressed in the near future. That's one thing that puts it at the top of the list of concerns of middle and working Americans. And there's nothing that is suppressing wages as much as having illegal immigrants taking 7 million of our current 143 million jobs. The number of jobs estimated to have been lost to outsourcing is less than half of that.

Illegal immigration is the biggest tangible factor suppressing American wages. As such, it is the biggest factor affecting the economic wellbeing of Americans at present.

Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

I agree that being a Democrat or Republican will not help on THIS ISSUE !!

Congress is caught between doing what their constituents want (i.e., the voters), and what their rich Corporate donors want. They need Corporate donations to finance their media spin, but they need the voters to elect them.

Now it's down to whether the Corporate media propaganda machine can convince enough voters to vote against their own self-interests. Unfortunately, they've had pretty good success with this in the past. However, it may be different this time.

Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

So I guess I don't fit into your little box. :)

Have you expressed your opinion to your elected representatives?

but I haven't heard back yet - not even a form letter.

Good for you.. Have you read my letter?

http://www.angelfire.com/biz4/davidosborne/imgletter.pdf

I replied in another thread.

Can you just post it here?

It is a PDF so I will have to try and convert it to a jpeg..

The senate bill would allow millions more immigrants and give amnesty to most of those already here.

The effect on working class americans is well documented, and as others have noted, the decline in construction industry jobs will disproportionately displace those immigrants and cause large stress on both our social infrastructure and further depress wages.

Liberals who (in theory) represent working americans would not put up with this, imho.

I think we all agree that the SENATE Bill is unacceptable.. I happen to think that the House Bill is workable.. Do you?

I just sent my brick
http://send-a-brick.com/buybricks.shtml

I had not heard of this project !! GREAT IDEA.. I might just send a brick of my own.. I have a few in the back yard I get spruce up...!

David

I never thought I would hear myself say that, but--the Senate bill will hurt our economy and lower the wages of hard-working Americans who are barely making ends meet and I am furious with Ted Kennedy, Reid and all the Dems who voted for this bill.

On this issue I'm not a Democrat or a Republican---just an AMERICAN who is concerned about out-of-control immigration and border policies.

Politicians who voted for the Senate bill are opportunists shilling for corporate donations at the expense of the American worker. It's all political; compassion has nothing to do with their motives.

... I am glad to stand with you on THIS ISSUE !!


David

I completely agree with you. I, too, am an American concerned about how the Senate Amnesty Bill will destroy the American worker, unless the House can block it. I'm also furious with the Dems who voted for this bill, especially the 2 Democratic Senators from my own state, Barbara Boxer & Diane Feinstein. They won't be getting my vote again.

The Senate bill:
1) allows illegal immigrants who have been in the country five years or more to remain as legal residents, and eventually become citizens, after paying at least $3,250 in fines and fees and back taxes and learning English.

2)Requires illegal immigrants in the United States between two and five years to go to a point
of entry at the border and file an application to return.

3)Calls for deporting those in the country less than two years.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
People say it would be impossible to "round up" 12 (or 20 or whatever) million illegal aliens and send them home. It seems equally impossible to me that they will be able to "round up" all those in our country illegally then determine into which of the above categories each of them falls. Will we have to investigate the background and money trail for each immigrant? Would any of them admit to being in the country less than 2 years? This system seems destined to fail and I think the Senate is well aware of that...

is on target.. if you agree.. let you elected officials KNOW IT !

crimes.