With respect for and to Rep John Murtha (D-PA) ........

.... there is currently very active another thread about something Paul Hackett said about John Murtha on AAR yesterday.

In that thread, in which I participated, one point seemed to keep coming up ..... unbridled praise and defense of Murtha.

And that's a good thing and I say 'keep at it'.

But .......

Can anyone say they even knew John Murtha's name before he spoke out about the war?

Does anyone know, or did anyone at least have a sense of, the totality of his voting record in Congress?

Would he be the darling of the Dems were it not for this **one** issue?

I'm not here to condemn Murtha or to praise him, particularly. I'm just wondering how many of us know clearly who he is and what he's always stood for. I can say that I had never heard of him. I didn't know his voting record. He came up on my radar at the same time he came up on everyone else's radar ..... when he spoke out on the war.

I respect the guy and maybe more because this recent stance of his is so counter to the totality of the man - and therefore so anquished and principled. But I suspect he would be viewed far closer to ... say .... a Lieberman than to ... say .... a Kucinch, were it not for that stance. I can say for sure that's how I would have been viewing him.

edit for clarity, not substance

it'll give you a good idea of where he stands on things.

I looked it over briefly...he seems to be a typically moderate Dem. :shrug:

http://www.vote-smart.org/npat.php?old=true&can_id=H3460103&npatform_id=328

.... but I'd place him on the moderate to conservative side of things. Increase defense spending and limits (but NOT elimination) of a woman's right to choose.

I don't have the ratings, but I think has voted republican more than people here realize.

On Edit:

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=H3460103&type=category&category=Liberal#How

He seems to be "somewhat" progressive, but I think based on the results of the surveys, he is one of the more conservative leaning dems in Congress. The area of PA he is from, also tends to be quite conservative.

In broad terms, he's on the conservative side of the Dem scale. This is also the right place to represent *his* constituents.

Again, this is not to put him down in any way, shape, or form.

This thread, while mentioning Murtha, is far more about ***us***. And our choice in, and support of, heros.

speaking truth to power is what we need so badly right now.

My central point in this thread is about heros and darlings. Murtha is the hero du jour. Don't take that as a criticism of him. It isn't

*Do* take it as a point about heros' followers.

we're hungry for them.

We need a leader and a rabid pack of followers right now to be effective. Trouble is, sometimes we're too smart for our own good.

Totally agree- Murtha's stand on the haditha atrocity speaks to the very heart of morality and the sorts of values that used to be the soul of the nation I love.The swift-boating of this honorable warrior and public servant is the sort of thing that could tip me over into active, dare I say it, hatred of the repiglicons and all they bow down to.Generally I'm pretty laid back but some things just get to be too much.

He is the antithesis of showboaters like Biden (yes, I know he is in the Senate, but you get my point.)

He speaks with conviction, unlike some who speak mainly to listen to the one thing in the world they love most...the sound of their own voice.

I suspect there are other hidden gems like Murtha. It's time for the "big-name" Dems to stand back and give these unsung heroes their time in the spotlight.

BTW, you can check out his voting record here:

http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=H3460103

He's what I would consider a conservative Democrat, but overall, the guy is a huge plus for the Democratic party. In fact, I would love to see him replace Pelosi as Speaker of the House if we can take control of Congress in 2006.

... not one word.

And I had seen his record. But that link is useful. Thanks. I'd put him pretty much in the middle of the conservative Dems ..... not a bad thing .... but not a likely candidate for the Darling of DU.

on issues that he has not been on the right side (IMO) of before. I respect a person who has the good sense and humility to change his mind. I don't expect to agree with him on much else.

He is not a demigod. No worries about that. He, however, deserves better than being trashed by an ambitious defense lawyer. Hackett can do his job and campaign for his client's innocence until proved guilty without taking pot shots at a man who was brave enough to put a face on this disgrace in Haditha.

not a word of it ..... and I hope you didn't take my comments in your thread as disagreement. It seems you and I heard two different interviews. What I heard was his (H-man, not Murtha) call-in to Schultz' afternoon show, not the later thing you caught.

when they were supporting him in the OH Senate primary.

However, I'm not sure why this is a relevant question about Murtha. People at DU aren't arguing about Murtha as a total candidate. They're merely congratulating him for being right about this issue, which is completely appropriate. Furthermore, Hackett's criticism of Murtha isn't about where Murtha is on the spectrum of Democrats (and wouldn't that be interesting if Hackett, of all people, wanted to talk about whether Murtha is far enough left!). Hackett is, in fact, criticizing Murtha on this particular issue.

We can save the questions about whether Murtha is the best Democrat for his district when that question is relevant -- when he has a primary opponent. For now, the question in your OP sort of deflects attention from the issue at hand, at that's whether Hackett has fairly characterized Murtha's criticism of the US's actions in Iraq.

and as I stated upthread.

For some, what you say is true ("People at DU aren't arguing about Murtha as a total candidate. They're merely congratulating him for being right about this issue, which is completely appropriate."). For others ... not so much.

For what its worth, I used Murtha as an example, but not as the point.

And I would dare say that Murtha, himself, has new respect for what dissenters go through, now that he has felt the backlash first hand.

I expect that Mr. Murtha has shifted left as legitimately as Dean was moved left by his primary campaign supporters - it's a real life experience you just can't ignore.

probably the best lesson one can learn

..... I trust your views on things ...... what was your opinion of him before he assumed his current 'darling' status? And how did you come to know of him?

benefits and pensions. Senate vets and Congressional vets would coordinate legislation.

I was a Cspan junkie back in the 90s.

Murtha was a guy you still respected much in the same way there is much to respect in a Robert Byrd. Though you can't agree with them on 20% of the issues, you're glad they're using their position in support of the 80% you do agree with.

I am a lefty who has a long record of supporting what others call DINOs. Many of my LA activist friends in the 90s could never understand my faith in "that Dino, Dennis Kucinich" and why I would send his campaign money. I felt I knew his heart and trusted that there was a real liberal there and understood his pro-life and pro-flagburning amendment positions - he was a true reflection of the first generation American, WW2 vet constituency he represented.

I'm glad I trusted his heart - he proved me right in the long run.

:thumbsup:

.... as this thread was not intended to diminish John Murtha, neither was it in defense of Paul Hackett. In fact, there's not even a moral equivalency between the two. Murtha is a long serving Dem congressperson who's earned every right to his seat. Hackett is an upstart firebrand who, on a good day, is a loose cannon. But on *this* day, he's just a private citizen who is free to say any damned thing he wants.

We need to reconsider the idea of judging good Dem candidates based on their PR value only.

We also need to accept that in some cases, we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water when it comes to criticizing members of our own party.

Not all Dem incumbents are lazy, good for nothing, DLC loving apologists. Most of them are pretty damn good and we should think twice before trying to kick them out of Congress and replace them with people we don't know.

.... did you know that before he came to the fore or did you discover that after the fact?

he is and always has been a conservative Dem, kind of a hawk actually. Very big on defense spending and making sure our troops and vets are treated well. Very good at bringing the money back to the home district, too. Lotta pork coming in from DC - sooooo wheeee!!

He's been outstanding on the latest issues with the war, but prior to his recent stances, he would have never been liberal enough for a lot of Dems. But as a critic of the current war, he's unimpeachable, no matter how hard they try to besmirch him.

He is from my hometown area, so I've been aware of him for around 30 years or so. A spotless record as far as his personal life, for whatever that's worth.

Your comments are pretty much what I would have expected to hear from someone who knows him well.