Conversation with a co-worker about the war...

Today someone brought up the local officer who's refusing to go to Iraq. One of my co-workers though the whole thing was about personal publicity (I'll bring up the subject with her another time. I don't think she's an idiot, at least--maybe she'll listen).

The other guy, a 21 year career army veteran, thinks he's a freeloader. He joined up, took advantage of the army, and is now refusing to do his duty. I pointed out that he may just think the Iraq war is an illegal war, and (believe it or not) his comment was "who says so? Did the U.S. government call it that?"

I replied, "of course not. Why would they?"

His response? "My point exactly."

He was getting a bit riled, and I was flabbergasted by his responses. He said that "your oaths bind you to follow the Commander-in-Chief's orders."

I asked. "Even if they're illegal?"

"Yes."

"That's exactly the situation the German soldiers had during WWII. Soldiers have a legal and moral obligation to refuse unlawful orders."

He was winding up like a spring-loaded toy about this point, so I agreed to let the matter drop.

I know that ALL career military people aren't brainwashed, but I find that a lot of them sure as hell seem to be. What's the dividing line? Education?

It's easier to get in the pointed comments in writing--people actually have to take a moment to think of a response. In spoken conversation, if the other person shuts down their listening apparatus, you're just wasting your time. This guy didn't want to hear anything that didn't correspond to his beliefs.

SOLDIERS HAVE A LEGAL AND MORAL OBLIGATION TO REFUSE UNLAWFUL ORDERS. And the only thing they have to go on is their own conscience. They can't look outside themselves for this determination--certainly not to the very government that's asking them to do these questionable things.

:banghead:

Why is this so hard to understand? This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that makes some of us very suspicious of the military. "Just following orders" is a STUPID FUCKING EXCUSE.

We were told we did not have to obey illegal orders which included orders that violated the Geneva conventions. Of course now the new Army training manual conveniently omits any mention of Geneva.

add; Smedley Butler knew the difference

They signed up for the service because they trusted our government to risk their lives only as a last resort and to protect our country. Iraq is neither. Bush and his cohorts lied to these soldiers and betrayed them by using them for a needless selfish PNAC ideal that has nothing to do with protecting America.

It sickens me that they somehow successfully used the propaganda to create the fallacy that the neo-cons support the troops. They used them, betrayed them, did not sufficiently arm them, did not sufficiently protect them, and cut benefits.

I found myself drowning in potential responses...I couldn't pick one out of the dozens that flashed immediately to mind. He actually threw out the "Freedom isn't free" line. I wanted to scream. "No, it's not free. But how in the FUCK does Iraq have anything to do with OUR freedom?"

He sends me e-mails and calls me with stupid things. When I respond, he dismisses me by saying I am angry. He actually said the other day that he did not understand why I did not like Bush--"he has the terrorists on the run." It takes everything I have to remain calm. He sounds exactly like Fox News. I have to work with him, so I just ask him to stop sending me his propoganda.

yeah, right into the nearest crowded area with a fucking bomb strapped across their belly.

"If this is success, I'd hate to see what failure looks like."

My oath was to defend the Constitution and the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic. I was required to follow the LAWFUL orders of my superiors.

does it not? I just couldn't believe he tried to say that the government had to say it was an illegal war for it to actually BE an illegal war.

Say, WTF?

Many men refused to fight in the Korean war. Some even went to prison.

Many people have too much fear to face facts. Some just do not have the courage emotionally to face the truth about what horrible things are being done in our country's name.

Like abused spouses and children who will only rationalize and defend their abuser, they want so much to believe in the 'kind father' who is wise and caring looking out for them. If they keep believing, they never have to become fully adult. 'Daddy' will make the decisions, keep them safe, provide.

So long and they believe that myth, they never understand freedom. They will talk about it a lot, but they never understand what it means, and they will never experience it first hand.

And she sounded as brainwashed as your co-worker. She refused to believe that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, even when Randi played a tape of the boy king saying as much. :puke:

On the other hand, Ed Schultz asked Marines to call in recently to talk about Haditha. I didn't hear all of them, but the one guy who called in while I was listening said not only would he disobey a direct order to shoot innocent civilians, he would do whatever it took to stop a fellow Marine from doing so, even if it meant shooting him. Moreover, he said Marines are taught NOT to follow illegal orders, that if they do they are committing a crime.

Guess your guy missed that part of boot camp.

Thats not what they're taught in basic, though. If you are given an order, you are to assume that its a lawful order - unless you are told otherwise by a higher authority.

He's in one of the military branches. I think either the Army or Marines. But I parked next to his car at a family reunion and his bumper stickers said things such as "I support our troops AND our President." That was the one that stuck out to me but there were many others like it.

For some reason he started talking about the military and how I should join (I haven't seen him in a very long time so he has no idea what my political beliefs are). He went on about how we are doing such a great job in Iraq and I just got chills down my spine. I was rather saddened to see that someone could be so brainwashed by his time in the military and become a sheep.

"In a war prosecuted by the terminally ignorant for the benefit of the disgustingly rich?

"Where do I sign?"

Yeah, I'm a bastard. Legally.