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Them darn illegals be driven down ma wages!!!!!

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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:18 PM
Original message
Them darn illegals be driven down ma wages!!!!!
Lets have a look at this claim shall we?

The majority of immigrants that come here illegally are
employed in which sector of the economy? Agriculture?

Let us take a look at the laws on the books!!!!

[The following are examples of employees exempt from both the
minimum wage and overtime pay requirements:

Executive, administrative, and professional employees
(including teachers and academic administrative personnel in
elementary and secondary schools), outside sales employees,
and certain skilled computer professionals (as defined in the
Department of Labor's regulations); 1

Employees of certain seasonal amusement or recreational
establishments; 

Employees of certain small newspapers and switchboard
operators of small telephone companies; 

Seamen employed on foreign vessels; 

Employees engaged in fishing operations; 

Employees engaged in newspaper delivery; 

Farm workers employed on small farms (i.e., those that used
less than 500 "man‑days" of farm labor in
any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year); and 

Casual babysitters and persons employed as companions to the
elderly or infirm. 
The following are examples of employees exempt from the
overtime pay requirements only:

Certain commissioned employees of retail or service
establishments; 

Auto, truck, trailer, farm implement, boat, or aircraft
salespersons employed by non‑manufacturing
establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to
ultimate purchasers; 

Auto, truck, or farm implement parts‑clerks and
mechanics employed by non‑manufacturing
establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to
ultimate purchasers; 

Railroad and air carrier employees, taxi drivers, certain
employees of motor carriers, seamen on American vessels, and
local delivery employees paid on approved trip rate plans; 

Announcers, news editors, and chief engineers of certain
non‑metropolitan broadcasting stations; 

Domestic service workers who reside in their employers'
residences; 

Employees of motion picture theaters; and 

Farmworkers. 
Certain employees may be partially exempt from the overtime
pay requirements. These include:

Employees engaged in certain operations on agricultural
commodities and employees of certain bulk petroleum
distributors; 

Employees of hospitals and residential care establishments
that have agreements with the employees that they will work
14‑day periods in lieu of 7‑day workweeks
(if the employees are paid overtime premium pay within the
requirements of the Act for all hours worked over eight in a
day or 80 in the 14‑day work period, whichever is
the greater number of overtime hours); and 

Employees who lack a high school diploma, or who have not
completed the eighth grade, who spend part of their workweeks
in remedial reading or training in other basic skills that are
not job‑specific. Employers may require such
employees to engage in these activities up to 10 hours in a
workweek. Employers must pay normal wages for the hours spent
in such training but need not pay overtime premium pay for
training hours.]





So farm laborers are exempt from minimum wage laws!!!!!!! So
someone please explain to me how one can drive down wages for
farm laborers when they are not required to pay the minimum
wage.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Replying only to the last part...
It's possible that the farm laborers are being paid EVEN LESS than they otherwise would without minimum wage protection. And it'd be hard to understand the corporate preoccupation with illegal immigrants if they did not in fact depress wages like that.

Now, how great is that effect? I dunno - and I doubt it even has to be much for the cumulative effect to be worth it to big business.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Piecework rates
The farm laborers get paid by the amount they harvest, generally. When they're new to the job, that's less than minimum wage. Once they get their speed up, it can be more.

However, most piecework rates are set so that the average worker will get just about minimum wage when he's working at top efficiency.

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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Yeah, but who's to say what the pieces would be worth otherwise.
It's a what-if that even hardened economists should be afraid to tackle because of what Rumsfeld helpfully calls 'unknown unknowns', the things we don't even know we don't know.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. Corporate employers thrive on desperation. If they weren't making
foreigners miserable (forcing them to accept absurd working conditions) they'd be making Americans miserable.

It doesn't have to do with paying low wages (since they'd do that no matter what). It has to do with making sure people are miserable enough to work for those wages.

If there were no illegals, I don't think they'd settle for not having anyone. They'd just press their senators to further destroy health care and unions in America so more Americans would need to work those jobs.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
2. Because of supply and demand....you know,
just what corporations claim drives prices....12 million extra people willing to do menial labor drive DOWN the price of menial labor just as surely as only 5 competing oil companies drive UP prices.The lack of minimum wage guarantees has little to do with this-if no one will pick your lettuce at the wage you offer your choice is to let the produce rot in the field and go bankrupt or raise wages and either raise prices or cut profits.....Mexican labor is used to short-circuit the same market forces the corporations claim to worship-hence their dupe-Bush-proposes a "guest worker" program to insure his corporate buddies need never face the same harsh economic realities that the corporations unleash on the general public......
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. There is some use of it to short circuit supply and demand
But farm labor has always been low paid work. No one in the history of this country ever broke into the middle class by picking grapes and tomatoes.

Supply and Demand effect those that are desperate for work much differently than it effects middle class jobs.
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lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. Farm labor has alway been low paid work because its been done by
migrant workers (largely from Mexico) for decades.

There was an analysis I read some years back which said that if just 5 cents more per pint of strawberries went to the worker, it would more than double the worker's hourly wage, making a huge difference to the worker. And the consumer would hardly notice an increase in 5 cents per pint. The problem is that all the people in between make a percentage, and if the worker actually got the extra 5 cents, by the time the strawberries were priced in the store, the increase would be almost a doubling in the price.

By the way: buy organic strawberries, not conventionally grown. The workers in organic fields are paid more on average (although some of the bigger factory farms can be an exception to this).
More importantly, strawberries are one of the top 12 foods labeled "worst" in terms of pesticide exposure; these foods are the ones to focus on when you can't buy all your food organic because of the cost; also, the chemicals which are still being used in the fields are among the worst for the workers.
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unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
27. Exactly
Corporations and big business bypass the "free market" effect of a limited labor supply by illegally expanding the labor supply through hiring of illegal immigrants. They're happy to charge the "market rate" for their goods, but they hate paying the "market rate" for labor. They want a free market only when it's in their best interests. If it's not, they try to undermine the very free market they espouse. For the most part, Corporate America hates free markets, despite claims to the contrary. They favor free markets only in the few instances where it's to their benefit. And paying the "market rate" for labor is not to their benefit.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. This may interest you...
Edited on Mon Jun-12-06 11:04 PM by Breeze54
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back206.html

Dropping Out
Immigrant Entry and Native Exit
From the Labor Market, 2000-2005
March 2006
By Steven A. Camarota

Advocates of legalizing illegal aliens and increasing legal immigration argue that there
are no Americans to fill low-wage jobs that require relatively little education.
However, data collected by the Census Bureau show that, even prior to Hurricane Katrina,
there were almost four million unemployed adult natives (age 18 to 64) with just a high
school degree or less, and another 19 million not in the labor force.
Perhaps most troubling, the share of these less-educated adult natives in the labor force
has declined steadily since 2000.


Snip-->
•There is some direct evidence that immigration has harmed less-educated natives;
states with the largest increase in immigrants also saw larger declines in natives working;
and in occupational categories that received the most new immigrants, native unemployment
averages 10 percent.


• While most natives are more educated, and don’t face competition from less-educated immigrants,
detailed analysis of 473 separate occupations shows that 17 million less-educated adult natives
work in occupations with a high concentrations of immigrants.

• Some of the occupations most impacted by immigration include maids, construction laborers,
dishwashers, janitors, painters, cabbies, grounds keepers, and meat/poultry workers.
The overwhelming majority of workers in these occupations are native-born.

• The workers themselves are not the only thing to consider; nearly half of American children
(under 18) are dependent on a less-educated worker, and 71 percent of children of the
native-born working poor depend on a worker with a high school degree or less.

• Native-born teenagers (15 to 17) also saw their labor force participation fall —
from 30 percent in 2000 to 24 percent in 2005.

• Wage data show little evidence of a labor shortage. Wage growth for less-educated natives
has generally lagged behind wage increases for more educated workers.

A national unemployment rate of 5 percent is irrelevant to the current debate over illegal immigration
because illegals are overwhelmingly employed in only a few occupations,
done mostly by workers with only a high school degree or less.
In these high-illegal occupations, native unemployment averages 10 percent —
twice the national average.
Moreover, the unemployment rate does not consider the growing percentage of less-educated
workers who are not even looking for work and have left the labor market altogether.
It would be an oversimplification to assume that each job taken by an immigrant
is a job lost by a native.
What is clear is that the last five years have seen a record level of immigration.
At the same time, the unemployment rate of less-educated natives has remained high
and the share that have left the labor force altogether has grown significantly.
Wage growth has also generally been weak.
Thus it is very hard to see any evidence of a labor shortage that could justify allowing
illegal aliens to stay or to admit more as guestworkers.
Rather, the available evidence suggests that immigration may be adversely impacting
less-educated natives.

The statistical findings of this study are consistent with other research that has looked
at the pattern of immigrant job gains and native loses in recent years. <--snip

More at Link.....
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. they're not just in farm work
they're in construction, manufacturing, retail and other sectors.

And your point about farm work is lost on me. What does the minimum wage have to do with it?
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. 24% are in farming, fishing and forestry
That leaves 76% spread out across other sectors of the economy. But 24% is the largest percentage in that sector. The next is 17% in "cleaning".

These statistics are taken from a link posted by one who opposes immigration.

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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. Jesus Christ! Do you have to post the same falsehood twice?
At least you didn't delete the sentence that you're conveniently ignoring. You deleted an entirely different one:


"The following are exempt from the minimum wage and overtime pay requirements (of FLSA)
Executive, administrative, and professional employees (including teachers and academic administrative personnel in elementary and secondary schools), outside sales employees, and certain skilled computer professionals (as defined in the Department of Labor's regulations);...

The following are examples of employees exempt from the overtime pay requirements only:
...

Farmworkers."


If you'd posted the entire section (which you've twice declined to do) it becomes clear that your basic premise; illegal immigrants are only taking jobs which are not subject to minimum wage, is to put it delicately, bovine feces.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Then explain what this means
"So farm laborers are exempt from minimum wage laws!!!!!!!"

Is this
a) correct or,
b) bullshit
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Farms with over 5 employees are not exempt from the minimum wage
You don't have to accept my premise, you have to accept the site from which you got the information says what it says. "Farm labor is exempt from overtime pay requirements ONLY."

http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/minwage.htm#who
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Heres what it says
Farm workers employed on small farms (i.e., those that used less than 500 "man‑days" of farm labor in any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year); and


Who's guilty of creative editing?

It clearly states 500 man days of farm labor in any calendar quarter of the PRECEDING CALENDAR YEAR!!!!!!!

http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/minwage.htm

I'm not wasting my time with a liar. There are planty of others that I can have a conversation with about this.

Have a nice day!!!!
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yup. That's what it said.
500 man-days during the fall quarter (harvest season) for the typical farm is 6 or so people.

A farm which employed 6 people (or in other words "more than 5") full time (farms don't typically have the weekends off) is required to pay minimum wage.

As a practical matter, if the farm employed 50 illegals, for all practical purposes it's exempt from minimum wage, or any other labor laws.

I guess you picked "B".

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lindisfarne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Your premise is flawed. If the illegal labor wasn't available, the job
Edited on Mon Jun-12-06 11:30 PM by lindisfarne
would usually still have to be done. Whether or not the job requires minimum wage pay is irrelevant.

Pay would go up and prices would rise. Some things would be automated (someone else on here posted a few weeks ago an example that lettuce farmers haven't automated because labor is so cheap but if wages rose, they were prepared to automate), for some areas, wages would rise, and perhaps some small percentage of businesses would decide to close because of labor costs.

People would stop getting cheap cheap lawncare services, and would either pay more, or choose to mow their lawn themselves (in Southern CA a huge percentage of the population pays someone to mow their lawn, compared to MN, where very few people do (and those that do generally hire the teenager down the road)).

I don't anticipate the US being able to absorb all of the world's poor, so why favor the very small percentage who come in illegally because they have the money to pay someone to smuggle them across the border, while others don't have that money?

The solution is advocating policies which improve the economic status of people in the world's poorer countries (not WTO-type policies), and enforcing laws, both at the point of the employer and the illegal immigrant.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
19. Why don't you tick off Southern working class voters some more?
Un-funny fake accent, ignoring their problems, supporting breaking the law.
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. How do you know I'm not from dixie?
But really thats not here not there.

Whats really gotten your feathers ruffled is you can't prove me wrong. It's really that simple.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
31. I neither care where you are from, nor do I believe it is relevent.
Edited on Wed Jun-14-06 02:25 AM by w4rma
Anyway how do you know **I'm** not from dixie? (I am, btw)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I want a return of MY democratic party
The one that as the legends tell STANDS FOR CIVIL RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!

That is what I see the role of a democrat being. We are the party that stands for the poor and downtrodden (at least we are supposed to be). If the people in this party are not going to stand for poor I'm going to speak out. Especially when the facts get in the way of the rhetoric!!!!!

We have a lot of work to do. I am not going to allow all the work I've done in this party get sidetracked by xenophobic rhetoric that's meant to pit the working class against each other. Wanna see how Republicans get people to vote against their class interests? YOU"RE SEEING IT HAPPEN RIGHT NOW!!!!!!

I refuse to allow anyone to paint desperate people as theives in the night "stealing" someone elses jobs. That is just despicable and it breaks my fucking heart to see so many Democrats follow along.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. And this rant has to do with
an affected Southern accent how? :wtf:
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Qualify how my use....
of a southern accent is somehow bigoted?
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ItNerd4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
22. Supply and Demand
It's simple: If supply outweighs demand, prices go down. If demand outweighs supply, prices go up.

Thus, if supply of labor is greater than the demand for labor, labor rates go down.
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. This seems to be the common response to this
That doesnt justify NOT paying someone the minimum wage. The Min wage was encated to short circuit supply and demand. Supply and demand when applyed to labor is brutal and harsh.

This is why we have a minimum wage. It boosts the floor up so companies have to compete for labor at a high rate. Its much diferent when you have one company competing for labor at 30 cents an hour and the next company offer 32 cents an hour.

Now if we make the floor $5.15 an hour we are talking about something else. Yet when talking about illegals and the 24% that are in farm labor as driving down wages we can see that the talking point is ridiculous. Corporations today have other ways to shrot circuit supply and demand and it comes in the form of collusion and union busting.

But we need to look at wages and the laws that are on the books as well. Immigrants didnt lobby to pass laws so that agriculture could get a break on the minimum wage.

Corporations are responsible for driving down wages, not labor!!!!
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unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
36. No, it is your talking points that are ridiculous
"Yet when talking about illegals and the 24% that are in farm labor as driving down wages we can see that the talking point is ridiculous."

No, in fact, your point is ridiculous, as is the whole premise of your OP. Increasing the supply of anything reduces the price. Period. Increasing the supply of labor, through illegal immigration, suppresses the price/wage of labor. That's even more true if there is no minimum wage to prevent their decline. That applies to farm workers, bricklayers, engineers, physicians, fortune tellers, mercenaries or any other job you can think of. Swell the supply of labor in any field, and you'll reduce wages.

Illegal immigration is driving down wages because it increases the supply of workers competing for those wages.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

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unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
26. Are you serious?
"So farm laborers are exempt from minimum wage laws!!!!!!! So
someone please explain to me how one can drive down wages for
farm laborers when they are not required to pay the minimum
wage.
"


What does 'not being required to pay the minimum wage' have to do with illegal immigration and wage suppression?

If there's no minimum wage, then there's nothing else to determine wages other than the market price of labor. So the effect of increasing the "supply" on wage suppression would be even worse.

Once again, illegal immigration increases the supply of labor. An increased supply of labor reduces the "price" of labor, just like it would reduce the price of any consumer good. Reducing the "price" of labor means reducing wages. If there's no minimum wage, the suppression would be even worse. Employers can pay workers even less than minimum wage. If the market rate for labor in an industry is less than minimum wage, and there is NO minimum wage, it allows them to pay workers even less. Again, this means wage suppression will be even worse without a minimum wage.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Did Illegals lobby to give agriculture an exmemption?
<<<<What does 'not being required to pay the minimum wage' have to do with illegal immigration and wage suppression? >>>>>>

Figure it out. Dismissing a fact becuase you don't want to believe it is indicative of the fact that you have other motivating factors in your ideology. Much of it centers around Social Darwinism and xenophobia. Do you blame people who have children for driving down wages?

You still have yet to qualify how your "kick them out" rhetoric is going to raise those wages. If you are of the opinion that the minimum wage has no effect I'd like to see you put your money where your mouth is and advocate that we get rid of it!!!!!


Your supply and demand theories do not apply to people who are desperate for work. It works the same for those who are in need medical services. The supply doesn't matter for those who have no choices. You could have 20 poor people versus 2,000,000 poor people, it doesnt matter. They will all take whatever job they can get.

But your more interested in scapegoating rather than placing the responsibility where it belongs. Never mind that it was immigrants in this country previously that fought and had their lives taken from them so you can have some semblence of a middle class lifestyle.
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unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. You're clueless
Edited on Wed Jun-14-06 04:39 AM by unlawflcombatnt
You're OP is nothing but a format to allow you to again call everyone who disagrees with you a racist or a bigot. It makes no sense whatsoever. If workers aren't covered by minimum wage, which is your statement, then the only thing affecting their wages is market supply and demand for labor. Anyone with any common sense understands this.

Not being covered by minimum wage makes the wage suppression caused by illegal immigrants even worse. You have NO point here.

Again, all this post has done is give you a vehicle to post your hate-filled, race-baiting, nonsensical garbage one more time.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."



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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
30. Where did you get the idea that most illegals are in agriculture?
Please give me the link that shows where illegal immigrants are working, in which industries. I'd be very interested to see that.
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RedTail Wolf Donating Member (372 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 02:49 AM
Response to Original message
32. Denigrating Southerners is not the way to make a point
I am from the South and am frankly sick of my party ignoring us and some even making broad generalizations about us. we need a 50 state plan to take this nation back...Nuff said

By the way I am sick of immigrants taking jobs that many people down here would love to do at a decent wage! Used to be a corner in town where you could pick up day labor for yard work, whatever. A few years ago that corner wa brimming with poor white and black american's ...now it's 95% latin, so I just don't buy that they do jobs poor American's wont do. The fact is, they will do them at half price!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
34. kickin!
great "conversation".

:D
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