Republican Logic (An Oxymoron)

By Nancy Greggs

Huge tax breaks for people who already have more money than they can spend in their entire lifetime will stimulate the economy, because now they’ll have more money to spend.

Buying cheap goods from China is good for the American economy, because the people who have had their jobs outsourced to China can only afford to buy cheap goods.

A president who lies to the nation about a sexual liaison with a fellow consenting adult should be impeached. A president who lies to the nation about going to war should be re-elected.

When Jerry Falwell uses his pulpit to shill for the Republicans, he’s an influential party spokesperson. When the IRS knocks on his door, he’s a tax-exempt man-of-the-cloth.

If you joined the military, you were in Iraq to protect your country. But if you return home and run for elected office as a Democrat, you were in Iraq to "pad your resume".

If you fight for America, you are protecting freedoms like the First Amendment. But if you exercise your First Amendment rights, you are anti-American.

When a panel of judges stops votes from being counted in Florida and installs a man in the White House, they are upholding the Constitution. When a panel of judges in Florida upholds the law and decide against Terry Schiavo’s parents, they are activists.

According to Rumsfeld, keeping Gitmo detainees standing for hours is "uncomfortable". Rumsfeld developing writer’s cramp from personally signing letters to the families of fallen soldiers constitutes "torture".

When children see Janet Jackson’s breast for five seconds on TV, they are learning wanton, sinful behaviour. When children hear Pat Robertson calling for the murder of duly-elected leader, they are learning good Christian values.

According to our military analysts, the soldiers currently serving in Iraq are not targets for the insurgents; they are securing the country. According to those same analysts, we can’t send any more soldiers to Iraq to secure the country, because we’d just be sending more targets.

We can’t announce when we’ll be withdrawing from Iraq, because the insurgents may decrease their attacks and simply wait out the clock. But we can’t train Iraqi troops so that ours can withdraw, because of the constant attacks by the insurgents.

The terrorists hate us because of our freedoms. Unless we allow those freedoms to be taken away by our own government, the terrorists have won.

When thousands of scientific experts declare global warming a reality, we need more study before we can act. When we get information from a single source named Curveball, we must take action before it’s too late.

It makes perfect sense for the IRS to spend millions of dollars tracking down citizens who cheated the government by fifty bucks on their tax return. Investigating where millions of taxpayers' dollars have disappeared to in the 'fog of war' is absolute foolishness.

When warned that Social Security will be in trouble within the next four decades, the best course of action is to totally gut it immediately. When warned that Bin Laden plans an attack on US soil, the best course of action is to adopt a wait-and-see attitude.

When Americans see billions of their tax dollars going to Halliburton, they are appreciating the enormous cost it takes to wage a war. When they ask how that money is being spent, they are nit-picking.

Ann Coulter is an outspoken woman of style and charm. Hillary Clinton is a mouthy bitch. Al Franken is a crackpot who is using the airwaves to mislead the American people. Rush Limbaugh is the calm voice of reason.

When Dick Cheney told someone to fuck off on the Senate floor, he was, as promised, bringing dignity back to Washington politics.

When TV journalists show videos of Administration members saying something they deny having said twenty-four hours later, those journalists are engaging in ‘revisionist history’.

When millions of Americans march in anti-war demonstrations, they are a ‘handful of people’. When a handful of people support an anti-gay marriage Constitutional amendment, they are an ‘overwhelming number of Americans’.

Republican logic -- now, there's an oxymoron -- sorry, I meant OXYMORAN!

R

Edit: voted it up.

Great work!

Redstone

Here's something I posted on Salon about a year ago. Some have found it to be a useful model -- a shift in perspective that can make it easier to deal with/dismiss "them."



Related discussion

What an EXCELLENT piece!

::applause:

i consider myself an average middle class conservative.as far as what you're saying about the stance on how the gov't deals with issues,nobody can really tell who's a liar and who's not. everyone gets their info from somewhere, and everyone thinks their sources are the right ones on both sides.the way i see it is,away from politics, our fundemental beleifs usually started in childhood. these days,republicans are not representing the population that elacted them.so it doesn't really hurt that much when they're bagged on. iv'e heard many misconceptions about what conservatives beleive in or outright lies, maybe out of anger. most conservatives want to get married,have kids,work hard for our money,do a little better each year,and raise our families away from poverty. earn money, spend money,and pay fair taxes, which is what a country needs to be prosperous.teach our kids to do the same to help insure the future.work hard,play hard.we're not angry,hateful,sex maiacs, self loathing people who are trigger happy and want to kill everyone.i've heard it all.racist,homophobes,sexist,hitlers etc. i wrote an entire page of names i've heard which none are true.we have no reason to be angry we make our own lives for ourselves no matter how good or bad.we are the silent majority of conservatives that no one hears until election day.we try to keep the gov't out of our lives as much as possible.
please,dont bash me too hard,i know i'm kind of in a lions den. p.s. ann coulter is pretty harsh,and does seem pretty bitchy!

The labels -- liberal, conservative, progressive, right, left -- have become so loaded they have lost all objective meaning.

We are NOT dealing with a divide between left v. right positions on "issues."

We are dealing with fascists v. anti-fascists; insiders v. outsiders; weakness v. strength.

80% of Americans are in 100% agreement on countless things. When there is so much agreement, why can't we seem to make the changes we all want?

One reason is that we have stopped talking about the specifics -- stopped actually describing and discussing our common concerns -- and instead have gotten lost in a game of labels.

Another reason is that ordinary people have been pushed out of their own game -- politics has became a game that is played exclusively by "professionals" and people are treated like game peices, or spectators, not participants.

When ordinary people connect with each other and work together, their common concerns and common experience grounds them in the real world. When we connect with each other, we find that we tend to work for our common interests -- interests which may have nothing to do with what the professional politicians, strategists, talking heads, or pundits think we care about.

When ordinary people see themselves as spectators, not participants in solving our common problems, they are no longer grounded by common experience. When we are disconnected spectators, we are vulnerable to manipulation.

When Hackett was forced out of his race for the Senate, it kicked off a discussion of some of the forces at work -- forces we must recognize if we are ever to address the problems that concern a vast majority of us. A couple posts from that discussion:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2463516

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2463516&mesg_id=2464945

RE your comment: "Most conservatives want to get married, have kids, work hard for our money, do a little better each year, and raise our families away from poverty and pay fair taxes, which is what a country needs to be prosperous."

I couldn't agree more. My post was aimed NOT at my fellow citizens, but at THIS Administration and the elected representatives who support it.

This Administration DOES NOT represent the American citizenry, Republican nor Democrat, Liberal nor Conservative. It represents ITSELF and the people and/or corporations that feed it money.

May I ask you to please read one of my previous articles -- I would TRULY appreciate your comments. You can send me a Personal Message here at my Inbox at DU -- and I'm serious; I would love to hear your input.

The link is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2370863

Always good to meet a reasonable, civil, out-in-the-open conservative. Three interesting things about your post, I thought--first, you say "as far as what you're saying about the stance on how the gov't deals with issues,nobody can really tell who's a liar and who's not. everyone gets their info from somewhere, and everyone thinks their sources are the right ones on both sides." I know it's not easy, separating the facts from the bullshit in this day and age--mostly because Bush and his flying monkeys are doing their level best to lie, mislead, conceal and confuse on everything from the Iraq war to NSA spying to those secret energy meetings Cheney held with Ken Lay and the boys from Exxon/Mobil. If you start with the operating principle that EVERYTHING Bushco tells you is a lie--and again and again this has proven to be the case--then you're on the right track.

You also say: "most conservatives want to get married,have kids,work hard for our money,do a little better each year,and raise our families away from poverty. earn money, spend money,and pay fair taxes, which is what a country needs to be prosperous.teach our kids to do the same to help insure the future.work hard,play hard." Funny, most liberals/progressives want pretty much the same thing, with a pinch of social justice and eco-awareness thrown in.

Third thing: "i've heard it all.racist,homophobes,sexist,hitlers etc. i wrote an entire page of names i've heard which none are true." Well, here's the thing. When self-identified conservatives try to play the wedge-issue game by stirring up anger at Latino immigrants, that strikes me as outright, unabashed racism. When they pretend that defending marriage against the scourge of gay couples who want the same rights and privileges under the law as everyone else (as guaranteed by the Constitution) is the most pressing issue before the Senate--that seems to me patently, cynically homophobic. And when they tell me that corporations have the same rights as individuals, and that they're spying on me for my own good--well, my friend, I've read enough history to know the beginnings of fascism when I see it. And I won't even bring up conservative icons like Limbaugh, Coulter and Horowitz, and the legions of mouthbreathing morons who worship the chairs they fart in.

But hey, welcome again. I hope you stick around a while. You can learn a lot here, if you keep an open mind.

i most likely feel the same as the people yelling at the mexican immigrants whos country is run by drug mafia,and no functional gov't .but they dont know how to express themselves properly.yelling at them only makes things worse. first,they sneak across the border,which is the same as breaking and entering. then,they obtain fake social security numbers and possibly ruin some one elses life in the process.hang out on the street corner to get a free job.have teir kids for free.take teir kids to the emergecy room for free,which is why my health care is skyrocketing,and 60 emergency rooms have gone bankrupt and closed down in southern calif.no car insurance,which also makes my rates go up. they leave acres of trash on peoples property they walk through.the money they make ,they send it back to mexico to their families.they dont want to become americans,they dont want to learn english.i've seen many working and i know they work hard for les money,but that seems to be the only contributions they offer to make this country more prosperous.the bads seem to outwiegh the goods.they take out of my pocket for social reasons including welfare.i think many come here because they already know they can get whatever they want for free. i like mexican people they're hard working family people in general,i just dont like the sneakyness and illegal things they do that affect me. as far as gay marriage,i have a very open mind but,that doesnt mean anything goes.i think gays do have equal rights to get married (to the opposite sex and have kids like nature intended ),just like we do.i see being gay as an unnatural attraction,which is to anyone or anything other than the opposite sex.like when a grown man is sexually attracted to young boys,it's an unnatural atraction.ther is no rehab.there is no rehab for me being attracted to women.(i'm man by the way.).if it were legal for men and young boys to have sex, they would be making the same fight about marriage.and so on and so on.it would never end.i dont hate gays,my drummer of three years is a lesbian with three kids.it's kind of ironic but i dont treat her any different than anyone else,i just dont agree with it. hitler took away guns,freedom of religeon etc. he had a plan of ethnic cleansing to create a master race before he got into power.he was an athiest who thought he was god.literally.he said so.the jews were hard working people who contributed to society but he wanted them dead .he thought they posed a threat.he even had his own people killed if they didn't agree.he was insane. our president means well,our military arent a bunch of trigger happy thugs,they are very proffessional.what i dont understand is why we are the world police.why we have to come to the rescue around the world.if a country is threatened by another,here comes the world police.i think all of our presidents have wanted to keep an eye out all over the world for any threats that may arise because there will always be crazy people who want to wipe out entire races around the globe. i will most likely always have different views than you guys,butas long as we can continue to have civil disscussions! it's kind of long ,sorry if i'm boring everyone.

And your views are pretty much the conservative "mainstream" in much of southern/rural America, God knows. I can't speak for anyone else--the range of liberal/progressive opinion here at DU runs from the center-right-Clintonians to the full-on Marxists--but here's my take on immigration, gay marriage and fascism. First, on immigration: when I go to Los Angeles to visit my in-laws, the ONLY people I see doing any kind of physical work are Mexicans/latinos. Yard work, construction (even skilled jobs like concrete finishing, framing, plumbing and drywall), house cleaning, childcare, restaurant work of all kinds, farm labor of all kinds, trash collection, on and on; whatever the job, immigrants from Latin America do the work, while the white bosses sit in their fancy pickups talking on cell phones. Without latino immigrants, it seems pretty obvious that SoCal and the rest of the southwest would come to a screeching halt, and the agriculture, food processing and construction industries in particular would suffer enormously. These days, our economy runs on cheap labor--cheap Chinese labor overseas, and cheap Mexican labor at home, to do all the stuff we can't import. We all know about exporting U.S. jobs overseas to cheaper labor markets--it's called outsourcing. What we do here at home, by importing millions of cheap, illegal workers, is every bit as intentional--call it "insourcing" if you like. Basically, the ag and construction industries are like giant vacuum cleaners, sucking millions of undocumented workers over the border to work hard jobs, for wages set well below what most of us gringos would want to do the same jobs. The benefit for industry is obvious--they reduce their expenses (and increase their profits) considerably by hiring illegals. They don't just save money on wages, they save by not giving benefits (like health insurance), not paying into unemployment, not paying workman's comp claims, and so forth. That's why the corporate wing of the Republican party wants nothing to do with any attempt to stop the flow of undocumented workers into the US, unless it comes in the form of a "guest worker" program--also known as "amnesty." One of the big negative effects of the current system are, as you point out, the drain on local resources, largely caused by the employers' failure to provide health insurance. But there's also the slow, inexorable undermining of the domestic wage-base caused by bringing in millions of immigrants that will do jobs once done by Americans (everything from what once were high-paying union construction jobs to gutting and cutting in a Tyson plant). We're starting to see that effect the domestic work force in the form of decreasing wages for several years now under the Bush administration. How do you fix it? How do you turn off the giant vacuum cleaner? It seems like a no-brainer to me. How about we enforce existing labor laws as they apply to employers, increasing the penalties if necessary so that the fines for breaking the law are significant, even for big companies? Shut off the switch, pull out the plug, turn the damn thing off--no more giant sucking sound, pulling all those people over the border. As for immigrants "not wanting to become Americans or learn English": for most illegals, under the current system, becoming a citizen is not an option, and opportunities to study English are few and far between; who has time, when you're working twelve hour days and trying to take care of your kids?

Gay marriage: thirty years ago, I was a homophobe--like most American boys in those days. Like everyone else, I sneered at the few effeminate boys in my high school. I never engaged in any kind of physical abuse of those poor kids, though some of us did, and when it happened I did nothing to stop it. Not my proudest moment(s), and something I regret to this day. Since then, after a couple of career false starts, I've pretty much made my living as a writer. I've spent a lot of time around other writers, visual artists, composers, you name it, and most of my life in big cities where such people tend to congregate. Along the way, I've made a lot of wonderful gay/lesbian friends--smart, kind, responsible, loving, adult people, many of whom have been in committed relationships for years, some of whom have kids, houses, the whole deal. Sorry, but there's nothing unnatural about them. They love who they love, and it's ultimately their right to do so and absolutely none of my goddamn business, and I don't think it's any of the government's business, either. Nor do I think that the institution of marriage is in much need of government protection, and if it is it ought to be protected from people who want to get divorced, not from people who want to get married. Equating gay people with pedophiles is grossly unfair and a completely false argument: how are two adults who love each other but happen to be gay or lesbian the same, in any way, as an adult who victimizes children? Shame on you for making this obviously bogus comparison, and for trotting out the ridiculous slippery-slope argument the religious right uses whenever it wants to conceal its almost comical homophobia (comical if it weren't so hateful). I hope some part of your brain realized how nonsensical it was as you were typing it.

Fascism: Here are the 14 defining characteristics of fascism, as identified by Dr. Lawrence Britt, who examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottoes, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/The_14_characteristics_030303.htm

Take a look at these, and then tell me we're not well on the way to becoming a fascist state under Bush.

whew ,thats a lot of stuff.

1.nationalism.if we dont have borders language and culture,we dont have a country,it would be a lawless free for all.of course there has to be limit .
american flags have always been a sign of what we fought for in the beginning.the nazi flag was not the national flag of germany.therefore it didn't represent the people,but one man and his ethnic cleansing military.

2.human rights.most people in america frown on obvious human rights violations on both sides.and usually will stand up for them .in most communist countries', leaders are rich and the people are poor and beat down their poeple or even open fire on their own people if they show any opposition.it's normal practice.our military would never turn on our own people.our military and our president has sent aid to many countries.
deliberate angry beatdowns or shootings of "innocent" people dont happen very often,and if they do,the reporters are hanging on their shirt tails.

3.rallies against our ememies.the more people show internationally that they are against a president in a time of war,the stronger it makes the enemy.the enemy was about to give up in vietnam until jane fonda climbed on the ememy's gun and pretended to shoot down americans,and john kerry giving his lies about things he never saw.when asked about it,he studders and changes the subject.it gave them incentive to keep killing us.and boy did they.
we were trying to stop communism from spredding.

4.military supremacy.wars are expensive.if we had a weak military,we would be a lot more vulnerable because in this day and age there are many people that hate christians and jews and western culture all together and will stop at nothing even blowing up their women and children to kill us.if we left now,osama and his merry men will claim victory and will never,ever stop blowing people up and slowly sawing off heads of non followers in the name of allah.they're already all over the world,living as normal people just waiting to end western civilization.but,they are being flushed out of the woodwork.

5.rampant sexism.family institutions are the building blocks of all societies.father to teach discipline and leadership,and mother to teach warmth and compassion.the formula that most people hope for but today is getting harder to find.bush's cabinet is made up of almost half women and ethnic backgrounds.

6.controlled mass media.the gov't has sensorship or should i say,laws and boundaries against vulgarities but the media can say whatever they want about the president and his politics.every single day when i turn on the radio and t.v.,the first and only thing i hear is how many soldiers or innocent people died in a blast.the other day nbc,s mike boetcher was covering a blast that happened after al-zarquawi's death,that killed 11 or 13 people.he said it was in retalliation of zarquawi's death.then was asked if there was certian confomation of a retalliation and mike stuttered and said ah,ah,no we don't.just one recent examples.reports from the military of all the rebuilding of hospitals ,schools,electricity,water supplies etc.,never,ever get reported.the enemy knows it,and they smile and know they have freinds in the american media.

7.national security.if you leave your front door to your house open or unlocked,and i tell you that you'd better prepare for a home invasion or robbery or you could possibly lose your life as you know it, it should make you more cautious. fear of what could happen is what keeps us from getting our throat cut.

8.religeon in gov't.christianity has been under fire more than any religeon in the country.the aclu seems to be fighting it on a daily basis.founder roger baldwin quote:"communism is the goal".i read it myself.which makes sense to why they are fighting for freedom from religeon with every cross in the desert to taking god from our money.bush is letting everyone know he's a god fearing man because he beleives there is a higher power than himself.which is probably why he stumbles on every speech.he seems weak and humble.wheather or not god exists,beleiving brings peace.look at some of the most hardened criminals who found total peace with god even if they were executed.it gives people more to live for other than flesh and himself.

9-10.corporate power.republicans my have big corporations backing them,but almost all labor unions back the demmocrats wheather the workers want to or not.also the richest lawyers in the country,the aclu.the democrats are also trying to start letting convicted felons and nonamerican citicens. i cant wait to see what gets voted on then.both sides have their major backing.

11.disdain;arts ,intellectuals.we need as many smart people as possible to run the country in the future as well as creativity.i see a lotless interest in education with the kids nowadays.it's kind of scary.at least in california. i was in high school in houston in the 80's ,and most everyone studied during the week and partied on the weekend with almost no dropout rate. here and now,they want to party all the time with a 20 to 30% dropout rate.iv'e never seen any adults that dont like intellectuals or someone good at art.

12.crime and punishment.if our police forces show weakness,criminals will rule the streets and neigborhoods.the criminals today are more messed up in the head, viscious and absolutely no conscience than ever before.our police are almost fighting for theier lives daily.THEY must work in fear of what they are up against or they could die. sometimes they go too far,and they go on trial.if the criminal in question never broke the law in the first place he would never have been in that position.i obey laws so i dont get into that position.

13.cronyism and corruption.absolute power corrupts absolutely.all rich politicians are corruptable in my opionion.both sides have proven that time and time again.

14.flatulent, i mean fraudulent elections.again iv'e seen records on both sides using dead people etc.illegals have started stealing identities around here and voting.also ,one man went to vote last week and they said he cant because he aready did.thats not exactly fixed but voter fraud will always be there.they wont allow drivers licence checks in california for voting.that could solve a lot if they did.

in l.a.,undocumented people move in by the masses,white people feel like they're living in mexico so they move out.not because they wont do the work but because they dont recognize they're home anymore.being the only english speakers around .i apologize for the young boys scenerio but as long as i fundementally see being gay as an unnatural attraction and goes against natural mammal survival,then we will never agree.i still treat them like everyone else.out sourcing and cheap labor could ultimately turn our country into a third world nation.i dont agree with it.that is definately greed at its highest level.how much money does a person need?billions and billions? how well off do they need to be? any way,this has been a nice challenge and it took me 3 hours to type it with two hunt and peck fingers,i'm gonna go get some popsickles!!!

I come here to get away from f***ing conservatives...you own the White House, Congress, the Supreme Court, the voting machines, the media - STAY AWAY FROM HERE...and learn how to use paragraphs for chrissakes

gooooood,gooooood.i can feel your anga. go ahead strrrike me down,then your journey to the dark side will be complete.

with that much unprovoked anger and rage,tells me you were either beaten,molested,or abandoned as a child and you're desperately trying to fit in.
it's o.k.,if you need a shoulder to cry on,i'm a good listener.

I LOVED both pieces! I did read your other piece Nance (LOVED that one too!) and I think the one ingredient that all three pieces are missing is the absence of truth in our mainstream media. Whether the truth hurts one side or the other shouldn't matter. What matters is that what is being told is the truth. Without it, how can we make informed decisions? How can we accept the decisions made by our fellow citizens if those decisions were based on falsehoods?

Both conservative and liberal truth seekers should keep on the mainstream media. What each side needs is the integrity to catch and comment not only the lies about their side of an issue, but the lies about the other's as well.

. . .tested against objective reality, objective reality gets buried and doesn't even seem to exist to some people.

We rarely see reporting that goes beyond "X says Y, Q says Z" (It would be nice if the so-called "reporters" started acting like real JOURNALISTS who actually take the next stap and point out the fact that X is lying and Q is not.)

.

No wonder I feel sick to my stomach all the time since this mis-administration took power!!!

:puke:

Right on Nancy! And Pat_k, your mini-piece spells out what I've been cooking on for years. I look at my family and my neighborhood and it fits.

To me there is NO justification for killing women and children and grandparents (no matter what color their skin is or what religious order they ascribe to or what political entity they've been born into, and on and on and on.

To me there is NO justification for unverifiable vote machinery. Without verifiable voting, there is no choice.

To me there is NO justification for ANYone retiring with a $400,000,000 personal retirement package (Lee Raymond, CEO Exxon).

And it goes on and on and on.

But to my neighbors, across the street, there are justifications for each one of these. They treat my daughter with caring and kindness, yet have no compassion of any kind for children who get killed or maimed by our MED's (Manufactured Explosive Devices) because they are "insurgents" or "rebels" or "fanatics". Can someone please tell me in a way that I can viscerally understand how this is accomplished in someone's brain? Pat_k's close and I can logically understand the argument but my heart, my gut, my soul has no understanding of this tortuous "logic" at all.

Thank you Nancy for your excellent post!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

. . .to really "get it."

In the above post, I use the "photographic memory" comparison because a friend of mine has a photographic memory.

When he was small, he was mystified when he discovered that other people forgot things. It just wasn't something he could fathom.

Just as I will never really "get" what it is like to remember everything -- absolutely everything -- it is tough for him to imagine what life is like for us "forgetters." He has simply learned to set aside any expectation that other people remember things. He has learned to ask whether or not someone remembers a particular event when the event has some meaning or relevance to the interaction.

A similar example is a mathematician friend. He has tried to describe to me how his mode of thinking is fundamentally different -- and how, when he is among other mathematicians, he feels "at home" in a way he doesn't experience anywhere else. I can understand THAT his mathematicians mind sees the world differently, and I can observe how that difference affects his behavior, but try as I might I will never know what goes on in his head.

Perhaps these are not very good analogies, but what I mean to convey is the notion that there are many characteristics that affect how a person operates in the world, and when we don't share a particular characteristic it's hard to imagine being with/without it.

When beliefs define "reality," what would you test them against?

Some of us -- the folks I label belief people -- really do just "soak up" the thoughts and beliefs held by others in their social circle. Because the thoughts and beliefs they soak up define their "reality," testing those ideas against reality is inconceivable.

At any given moment, the beliefs ARE reality and assertions to the contrary must be wrong. There is no objective reality outside the beliefs.

The nonsensical notions that emanate from the beltway bubble have been "soaked up" by people who have simply spent too much time immersed in beltway society. Even people we think should know better fall victim.

Note: Because knowledge people don't necessarity TEST all the notions they adopt -- they can often look like belief people. It is knowledge that the ideas are TESTABLE, even if not tested, that distinguishes a knowledge person from a belief-peron.

For belief people, it is not about ideas at all. It is about people. When confronted with a "wrong" idea, they don't go after the idea, the go after the people who promote the idea.

There are wrong people and right people; not wrong ideas and right ideas. The people you soaked up your beliefs from, and the people who hold the same beliefs you do at a given moment, are the right people, and that is it.

What is REALLY tough to "get" is that the beliefs, and the reality defined by them, can change on a dime -- even from moment to moment. The right people can turn into the wrong people, or the right people can flip, in an instant.

We can only know this because we see it happen. The processes that cause the phenomenon happen in a "black box" that we just can't penetrate.

But, we can observe the inputs and outputs to that "black box."

When you set aside expectations and just observe, it becomes evident that, for a belief-person, specific beliefs exist in isolation. Today "everybody knows" (or an authority figure says) the sky is green, so the sky is green. If tomorrow, "everybody knows" (or an authority figure says) the sky is purple, then purple it is. That's it. No fuss, no muss.

No need to "educate" or explain why it's purple today when it was green yesterday. No need to make the case that the sky is green. It just is -- until it is declared to be a new color.

The beliefs are not only unconnected to founding premises, they are isolated from each other. Conflicting beliefs comfortably co-exist.

You know you are dealing with a belief person when you find yourself saying, "Now you are saying X; but a minute ago you said Y? It can't be both!" to a person that seems completely unfazed by the blatant contradiction in the simultaneously held beliefs.

People for whom the assertions of others are theories; and for whom there is an objective reality out there against with those theories can be tested, may never fathom the "belief-person" process. We can just suspend our knowledge-person expectations, observe how it operates, and try to figure out how we might need to change our own thinking or behavior in response.

Dealing more effectively with belief people

1. Ignore them.
   
   For the most part, we are FAR more productive when we ignore the reactionary-right. When we worry about how they will react to us, we waste our energy on them and foul up our own thinking. If we target and try to "inform" them out of their beliefs, we'll be frustrated. (Just as you would be frustrated if you expected a cat to act like a dog, you will always be frustrated if you expect a belief person to act/think like a knowledge person.)
   
   If we focus on shifting the people who are just a little off the reality/truth track -- or who harbor beliefs that undermine our ability to make progress (see this document for examples of such ideas) -- we can change the dynamics in a way that will eventually sweep up a large proportion of the folks who currently believe the fascist propaganda.



2. If you can't ignore them, make some changes in how you communicate.
   
   To deal with the belief people we cannot avoid more effectively, and to preserve our own sanity, we need to make some changes.
   
   Some of the changes are captured in the following post, which is an annotated version of a typical belief person/knowledge person exchange (July 20, 2005 exchange between Al Franken and Mark Luther -- the Franken Show's resident dittohead)
   
   http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1440587&mesg_id=1441121

As always!

Woke up this a.m. feeling, for want of a better description, ill. Reading this improved me tremendously; I now realize that the stress and frustration are beginning to affect me physically. It is great to have so many frustrations expressed so logically, succinctly, and elegantly!

Great job!

:-)

The Right to Bear Arms is the freedom that protects all the others, but when the government engages in warrantless wiretaps and searches & seizures of our homes, it's all okay so long as they don't take our guns away.

like those right wing comments

and not just boards filled with dems.

You're the best! This should be distributed as the Democratic "talking points"

Great stuff Nancy.

--IMM

I don't know how you do it, Nance - such clarity of mind to cut through SO MANY of the distractions, distortions and fallacies. It is an ill logic, indeed.

I've had a few head-shaking thoughts of my own (some of which you touch on above) whenever my feeble mind has untangled a few of the many Republican logic pretzels. Some examples:

Regarding the (willing, for some) sacrifice of liberties at home as we bomb for democracy abroad, some Americans seem to be saying: "Yes! Lock us up, so that we may be free!"

And, speaking of bombs, the "logic" of "We'll kill you so that you can be free" (which seems to be the current MO in Iraq) has never made sense to me. Killing for peace. Um. OK. :crazy:

And lastly, the death penalty has never made any sense to me. Every time it is administered, the lesson (to me) seems to be: "You killed someone. Killing is wrong. So we're gonna kill you! Got it?"

Um, well, no. But then again, I've always been from the "turn the other cheek" New Testament Biblical school as opposed to the Old Testament "eye for an eye" BS. After all, two wrongs don't make ya righteous!

Anyway, thanks for the great post!

Someone who sells off America's great national parks, forests and wildlife refuges to the highest bidders is a wise conservative. One who seeks to conserve our heritage for future generations to enjoy is a wide-eyed free spending liberal.

:applause: