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Attention lurking Greens: I'll make a deal with you.

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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:35 AM
Original message
Attention lurking Greens: I'll make a deal with you.
If your side stops saying: "There's no difference between Republicans and Democrats"
I'll do what I can to get my side to stop saying: "Ralph Nader cost Gore the election." Deal?

Grr.

I got into a debate with a Green Party candidate for Congress in WI-5 (Sensenbrenner's district; we have a good Dem running) at Drinking Liberally this week, and he trotted out that old, tired line.

So I made him the offer and he protested: "That's not true and you know it."

I responded, "well, neither is your line. It insults my intelligence when you say it, just as throwing Nader back at you insults yours. The Democrats aren't going to win any new members from the Greens by blaming Nader, and you aren't going to win over any new members from the Democrats by telling us we're just like the Republicans."

He then went on to say that Russ Feingold was going to get "Deaned" by the Democrats in 2008, and will join the Greens as a result. "He's laying the groundwork now," the guy explained. "He is very respectful to the Greens, and we like him too. You'll see."

:eyes:
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not a fair deal.
Here's the problem:

There's no difference between Republicans and Democrats: FALSE
Ralph Nader cost Gore the election: TRUE

(Note that Ralph Nader was not the *only* reason Gore lost the election. But it is ABSOLUTELY TRUE that Gore would have won Florida by a comfortable margin if Nader were not on the ballot. It is a matter of simple arithmatic.)
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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. See, I don't see it that way.
The best way I've heard it was:

Nader was basically Steve Bartman. Bartman didn't "cost" the Cubs the World Series; it was merely one thing in a long line of things that didn't go in the Cubs favor. If Gore had won Tennessee, he would have won. If he hadn't have distanced himself from Clinton, he might have won Arkansas and won. Most importantly, if there wasn't all of the B.S. in Florida -- from blocked access to polls to butterfly ballots to hanging chads to December 12 -- to begin with, Gore would have won.

Nader didn't walk in and order people to vote for him. Gore was not entitled to anyone's vote. It's the job of parties to field candidates for office -- that includes third parties. Nobody faults the other third parties for fielding candidates. Nobody bitched too hard about Perot in the 90s.

I could just as easily say Monica Moorehead cost Gore the election. She was the Workers World Party's candidate in 2000, and she received more votes than the official margin between Gore and Bush. And I'd have a hard time believing that anyone who voted for Moorehead would have voted for Bush if it was just a Bush-Gore contest. They either would have held their nose and voted Gore or stayed home.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. I'm not a sports fan, and I don't know who Steve Bartman is.
But I think you are misunderstanding my point about Nader.

I said that Nader was not the *only* reason Gore lost the election. You are correct that Gore could have won the election, in spite of Nader's presence, if Gore had done some things differently.

But this fact remains: if only one variable was changed about the 2000 election (remove Nader as a candidate in Florida) Gore would have won it.

(And, on a related note: I have never understood why Nader supporters disagree with the argument that Nader cost Gore the election. One purpose of the Nader candidacy was to influence the national election, and force Democrats to move left. By "spoiling" the election for Gore, Nader showed that the Democrats needed to take him seriously. It seems to me that it is in the interest of Nader and the Greens to argue that Nader *has the power* to change the outcome of a national election. Arguing that they are unable to influence the election in this way only deminishes their own ability to affect change.)
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Mr. Bartman, Sir
Was a fan in the stands, who at a crucial point in recent Chicago Cubs post-season play reached out and interefered with a ball in play that would have almost certainly been caught and ended an inning. As matters developed, the inning continued and the Cubs lost decisively....
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
31. Skinner, you of all people should know better.

You're the uber-admin and you've been doing this for years for goodness sakes -- by now I would think you'd be sick of this ongoing flame war and just as soon dispose of it. You don't do that by throwing an olive branch on the ground and trampling it.

Even if you stand firm behind your assessment that Nader "is to blame" surely you appreciate the positive power of forgiveness, and the negative power that continued divisiveness between Greens and Dems poses. For example, there was a fairly active "vote trade" going on whereby Greens in key states agreed to vote for Gore, in exchange for someone in a deep blue state voting green.

This sort of dialogue isn't conducive to that sort of relationship continuing.

Finally, last time I checked, even though you are clear that this is a Democratic website, nothing in the Democratic Party platform contains anything about discouraging third parties to represent themselves, preserving a two-party system or whatnot.
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. Gore could have done a TON of things differently
From forcing Bush to run on his poor record as governor of Texas to also distancing himself from Bush. Someone outlined how many times both candidates agreed on the issues in the same debates. I think it came out to 38 times.

There were a ton of things going on in America and the actions of both parties contributed much to the voter apathy. There was no discussion on the reprucussions of Clintons Welfare Reform bill. Nothing mentioned about the effects of NAFTA, GATT, IMF and WTO. There was also the raping of the tressury to corporations by both parties.

Gore never even spoke about the enviornment which was HIS KEY ISSUE.

There was a lot going wrong with that campaign and the poor voter turnout reflected that. At the time of that election I could have cared less. Looking back now, had I known a little more what the right was up to, Gore could have easily raised suspiscion about what Bush had planned for Iraq. Wolfowitz, Perle, Rumslfeld and Cheney were very vocal about what they wanted to do years before Bush got into office!!!!!

It wasnt like Gore didnt know anything about this stuff.

I voted and contributed to the Nader campaign in 2000 and I have no regrets about it. That presidential campaing was way too influenced by corporate cash. At the time I had many concerns about the economy as I was one among many left behind by the economic boom at the time.

I was working at the Boston Stock Exchange making $7.75 and hour and paying $750 a month in rent. There was nothing said about the many of us who were in the same boat working for billion dollat corporations making poverty level wages. It was Nader who woke us up and made us feel a part of something.

Something that Gore failed miserably to do. There was a lot to that election that went wrong. Ralph Nader was the only thing that went right. He gave us an outlet and a voice where we could be heard. That's what elections are for!!!! Getting your voice heard!!!!
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Ralph Nader cost Gore the election: TRUE
It assumes that every green who votes for Nader would have gone to the polls anyways and voted for Gore. That is a faulty assumption about greens, and one that I think can not be made. Most greens (or speaking for greens in Maine) are very wary of the political process, preferring direct action to political action. Many, when they do vote, cast protest votes. Many vote only for their local candidates of preference, choosing to forgo the national choices. For greens, having a national green candidate was a novelty, and one that drew many greens to vote for president that may have skipped the process entirely otherwise.

Your comment should read:

There's no difference between Republicans and Democrats: FALSE
Ralph Nader cost Gore the election: MAYBE

PS
The maine green party is currently imploding over the issue of political action vs direct action.
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Skinner ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Um, no.
You say:

It assumes that every green who votes for Nader would have gone to the polls anyways and voted for Gore.

That's not correct. It assumes that a tiny, tiny fraction of the people who voted for Nader would go to the polls and vote for Gore. (If you really need the exact number, I can dig up the "official" Florida tally and do the math for you. I seem to remember it was somewhere around one percent, but my memory could be wrong.) Assuming that a tiny fraction of Nader Voters would have voted for Gore is not a particularly radical assumption.
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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. So, in the spirit of that, lets just make it 2 parties and throw in all...
the mess in florida. Since we're using guess math I made some guesses:

Bush
Gore

2912790
2912253
Final Tally (w/diebold)

24355
48710
Nader Votes Broken Down Accordind to Nader analysis of how his votes would fall in 2 party election

2937145
2960963
Subtotal

8500
4000
Reform Party

8000
1500
Libertarian

500
1000
Natural Law

1000
250
Constitution

1500
1500
Other

10000
5000
Bush's Lost Panhandle Voters

3000
'Palm Beach Buchanan Votes'

750
4000
'Felons' that weren't

???
???
The 180000 uncounted Ballots

???
???
Uncounted Overseas Ballots

2970395 +/-???
2978213 +/-???
Grand Total


I find it very hard from this data to make any valid assumptions, other than Florida should get its act together. Of course, looking back I would have prefered that Nader voters had voted all Gore, I would also have preferred that a great many votes that weren't counted were. The only group that can be blamed for that debacle are the people in charge of Florida's electoral process.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. As A Matter Of Fact, Mr. Green
A poll cited by Nader himself indicated that in Florida, about half his voters would have cast ballots for Vice President Gore, about a quarter for Bush, and about a quarter would have stayed home had he not been on the ballot. Nader cited it to indicate not all his votes came at the expense of the Democrats, but the figures indicate that had he not been on the ballot, Vice President Gore would have received a comfortable enough margin in Florida, even allowing for all the other elements of chicanery the Republican state administration engaged in there.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Bullshit! The republicans were going to steal Florida no matter what
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 11:14 AM by LaPera
I'll help you get started for the still ignorant Dem's....

If Nader wasn't on the ballot they would of stole more votes and compensated...The democrats have no one but themselves to blame. You sound like the republicans who after all these years, keep pointing the finger at President Clinton for everything thats going wrong for the repugs.

Gore won Florida...But he didn't fight for it.

The fascist were going to fight to the death for brother Jebs state and would do ANYTHING to get their fascist ball rolling, and they did and now it's rolling at full stream! Nader or not, a Gore win or not!

The only thing that might have helped the Dem's was to have Florida Dem presidential hopeful, Senator Bob Graham on the ticket as VP...Edwards sure as fuck offered nothing, not even his home state!!!!!
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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. (Lieberman. Edwards ran with Kerry.)
Still, CT was an assumed win for Gore. I wish he'd chosen better too.
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Joe Lieberman - without 20/20 hindsight
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 11:39 AM by Apollo11
It was the only way for Gore to distance himself from Clinton's immoral and inappropriate behavior with a vulnerable star-struck intern and subsequent misleading statements on the issue.

At the time, Gore was Clinton's VP and so could not criticize the "big dawg" publicly.

But Senator Lieberman had publicly slammed Clinton's behavior, and so by picking him as a running mate, Gore could send a signal to the majority of Americans who strongly disapproved of Clinton's actions and untruthful statements.

But I know there are some here who still think that the sun shines out from Bubba's behind ...
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eyesroll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. I don't think the sun shines from Bubba's behind.
I do think he's a formidable campaigner and Gore distancing himself from him during the election did more harm than good.

Whereas most people disagreed with Clinton's actions, he still had high approval ratings (even during the impeachment).
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. FACT: Gore fought hard for 36 days.
Al Gore exhausted all the options that were open to him under Florida State Law.

The Bush campaign in Florida had everything going their way - including Governor Jeb Bush and Secretary of State Katherine Harris.

The mainstream media and public opinion polls were calling for "closure". People were told that the election was "basically a tie", and so many concluded "Well, the Dems had the Whitehouse these past 8 years. Now it's time to let the other guys have a turn."

The Republicans bussed-in Bush campaign people from Texas and congressional aides from Washington - not only to protest the recounts but to stop the recounts by any means necessary - including physical intimidation of people doing the recount.

Every night we saw pictures on TV of people holding signs "Sore Loserman". We were never told that these people were mostly paid by the Bush Campaign and by elected Republican officials to go down to Florida and hold those signs.

Democratic Senators were begging Gore to stand down and let it go. Most of them were not willing to fight.

Gore didn't let the American people down. The American people were not willing to stand with Gore and fight for every vote to be counted. If anything - it was we who let him, our party, our country and ourselves down.

Gore only conceded when the Supreme Court stepped in and stopped the recount in a 5-4 decision.

Gore concluded that there were no other options open to him under the Constitution that would have changed the outcome.

Even challenging the Floridian electors in Congress would not have prevented the inauguration of GWB. Not while the Republicans had a majority in both houses. It would only have led to more bitterness and recriminations.

But Gore told the world that he "strongly disagree"d with the Supreme Court's decision.

Gore lost that particular battle. But he has lived to fight another day.


In Gore We Trust :)
www.algore.org
www.draftgore2008.org
www.draftgore2008.com
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Correction. Gore won Florida and did fight for it. He won in the Florida
Supreme Court which ruled that ALL ballots cast in the 2000 Florida election be recounted by hand.

He lost in the Supreme Court, which, by the way, did not have the Constitutional authority to decide the matter. However, the Supreme Court is the last word in our Contitutional process.

How was Gore to continue fighting? Like the Black Knight who threatened to bite his way to victory once all his arms and legs were gone?
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
34. Yes
Why is Gore's miserable VP choice never held up as the reason for the outcome?
Lieberman offered nothing. CT has seven electoral votes and was safe for Gore.
Gore should have picked Senator Bob Graham

(And what about the 52 million registered voters who didn't even bother to show up?)
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
41. Your 'logic' is faulty.
First you say that the repukes would HAVE (not would OF) stole Florida no matter what, and then you say that democrats have no one but themselves to blame.

Can't have it both ways, dear.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Gore's inability to attract Green/liberal voters cost him the election.
That's how elections work, if we're going to be honest with ourselves. Someone who can't keep the left wing inside the Democratic coalition isn't electable. That's Gore's own fault, not Nader's.

And for the record, Nader never claimed there was no difference between the two parties, just that the differences were not as significant as they should be.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
15.  Pure crap
We TOLD YOU this was going to happen, but your room-sized egos wouldn't believe it. 3+ million votes and you could have had someome who would have LISTENED to you agenda.

Stupid stupid stupid.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Greens told YOU this was going to happen.
Gore was the one who chose to treat Nader like crap and run a centrist campaign that ignored trade and environmental issues. I guess Democrats could have listened and ran someone more liberal, but that was a decision Democrats chose to make. Democrats just have to accept what will happen when they run unelectable candidates who can't appeal to the left. That's today's political reality.

BTW, Nothing you typed contradicted or even addressed my post.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. So what, you base your decisions on anticipation or a chrystal ball?
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 12:21 PM by DainBramaged
Aw, poor baby, your ego's hurt because Nader was treaded like CRAP, my wrinkled old ass he was. If he hadn't pushed to get on ballots and accepted RNC money to do so, we wouldn't be having this discussion, Gore would be President, and 2500 of our sons and daughters, Mothers and Fathers, aunts and uncles, sisters and brothers would not be dead and 20,000+ would not be wounded and MAYBE we would have stopped Bin Laden before there was a 9/11.

Treated Nader right, bullshit. Pure bullshit. Troll elswhere. We know the outcome. It is reality today.

Oh before I forget, I didn't address any of your other post because it was as I previously said, pure crap.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. First, don't address me as a Green. I'm a Democrat.
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 12:27 PM by Radical Activist
So all the "you" this and "you" that doesn't apply to me. I'm a Democrat who thinks Democrats need to own up to political realities and our own mistakes instead of scapegoating Nader.

There are two groups of swing voters in America. The centrists who the DNC pays attention to, and the far left who are ignored. Gore ignored the left and it cost him the election. That losing strategy was Gore's fault. Own up to it.

If the Democrats had run a liberal, or if Gore had not ignored Greens and liberals then "2500 of our sons and daughters, Mothers and Fathers, aunts and uncles, sisters and brothers would not be dead and 20,000+ would not be wounded and MAYBE we would have stopped Bin Laden before there was a 9/11."

Gore did ask Nader to drop out near the end, but after a year long smear campaign of personal attacks, Nader basically told Gore to go fuck himself. oops. I guess they didn't see that coming.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. The Problem With That View, Sir
Is that the number to be appealed to in the center is much larger than that to be appealed to on the further reaches of the left, and that what appeals to the latter tends to alienate the former. Thus focusing an appeal in the direction you insist upon can be reasonably expected to result in a net loss of votes, as it will cost more in the center than it can gain on the left.

The real solution is for persons on the left to show some fire discipline, and engage targets in sequence, and in descending order of threat. The extreme reactionary elements dominating the Republican Party are the most dangerous foe, and must be defeated first. When this is done, it will be possible to engage elements within the Demcoratic Party that can be properly viewed as insufficiently progressive. But attempting to do the latter first will only guarantee the continued victory of the former.

"Can't nobofy here play this game?"
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. My thought
is that nominating a moderate/conservative for President who alienates the left is a losing strategy. We have to define any candidate who can't keep the left in the party as "unelectable" even if they do appeal to moderates. Its time to stop complaining about Nader and accept this new political reality.

I would like to find a candidate in '08 who is progressive but has the ability to appeal to centrist voters. Someone who can sell progressive ideals to a broader audience. I think there a few possibilities like Edwards, Feingold, and maybe even the new Al Gore depending on how his perspective may have changed. I don't think moderates who are unable to appeal to BOTH moderates and progressives can truly be called electable, which is something we have to think about with the Bayh's and Warner's of the world.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. The Problem, Sir
Is generally not the candidate; it is the all or nothing attitude of a fairly small number of persons situated to the furthest left portions of the political spectrum who view any courting of the center as consorting with the enemy. All of the persons you name have been denounced from the furthest reaches of the left, and if nominated, would be written off as appeasers and DINOs and the like by factionalists of the sort who supported Nader. At bottom, the problem is that there is a portion of the left that desires the results of a revolution without the employment of arms, and imagines this can be had at the ballot box. It cannot be had at the ballot box.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. The difference
between Nader's totals in '00 and '04 suggests that while there are some who will never compromise, there are also at least a few percentage points who will go either way, depending on who the Democratic nominee is. Wouldn't you say the level of third party voting on the left would be very different if the nominee were someone like Lieberman as compared to someone like Feingold?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Certainly It Would Be Different, Sir
But if Sen. Feingold were the nominee, you could rely on a great many attacks being levelled here against him, citing his votes for confirmation of various administration nominees and the like as indicating he was really just an "enabler" and represented no real choice, but would be about the same as the present administration if elected. The fact is that there are people in this world determined not to be pleased, and they really cannot expect accordingly much effort be made to satisfy them.

The fact is that the claim there is no discernable difference between Democrats and Republicans is a false claim. Even Prof. Chomskey, while viewing both as upholders of a system he would see radically changed, has stated that the election of Democrats instead of Republicans brings real material benefit to the ordinary citizens of the country, and is therefore to be prefered. There is nothing Vice President Gore could have done, in the 2000 campaign, that would have altered the extreme ideological stance of those elements who chose to adhere to this false view of our political life, or touched their lack of concern over real-life outcomes for their fellow citizens. They made their point that they could prevent a victory for the Democrats, and the country and the world is footing the bill for their personal satisfaction with their ideological rigor.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yada yada yada.
Defeat Booshe's minions and then you can spout about mistakes you perceived from the past.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
14. hear hear, FINALLY a voice of authority agrees with me
Shout it from the rooftops

NADER COST GORE THE ELECTION AND MIRED US IN THIS QUAGMIRE OF EVIL

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. Here's the problem I have with that ...
It's anti-democratic. The reason I'm a liberal democrat is that I profoundly support each person's right to be wrong, and believe it's our obligation to educate the VOTERS (each other), not blame candidates for getting votes or running for office. (Election fruad is a whole 'nother story.)

I'd like to see MORE people run for office. It's fundamental to my political values that people vote and candidates add to the political debate. It's fundamental to my political values that people participate. Participation doesn't confer privileges - it's a minimum requirement.

The Establishment Democratic Party wasn't apparently able to accommodate a significant constituency on the left and they voted FOR Nader. To speculate on what might have happened if Nader wasn't on the ballot is just another way to abdicate responsibility for the failure to address the very real values and principles of those who voted for him. I personally doubt those people would have even voted were it not for the alternative Nader offered for them to express their political views in their votes.

No citizen OWES anyone their vote.

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mainegreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. Oi! I don't lurk!
I lolly-gag about. There's a difference you know!
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. Sorry, I blame Ralph
I know people who would have voted dem if Ralph hadn't said dems and repubs are the same. Besides, one more name on the FL butterfly ballot can create a lot of damage. Even so, I gave him a pass for 2000. But, there was NO excuse for 2004, he now deserves my hate.

As for the greens, I always voted for them for local office, and will now refuse to. I am starting to hate them too. This board really opened my eyes to them, I don't see them as any more logical than the repubs. They only want to break the dems apart.

zalinda
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. Judging from the enormous number of Dem senators who
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 12:36 PM by coalition_unwilling
voted against the "Withdraw from Iraq by 12/31/06" amendment yesterday, I would say that Nader may be right about there being little difference between the Repukes and Democratic Party as it is currently constituted.

Actually, we need to withdraw from Iraq YESTERDAY, the stand a true opposition party would take.
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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. So, because some didn't vote your way
you want to destroy the dem party. Yup, Greens are soooooooooooooooo right about everything. They're know-it-alls, just like the repubs. I'm glad I stopped voting for them. I don't see them building anything, just destroying. Same coin as the repubs, just opposite side.

zalinda
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I'm not a Green, I'm a Democratic Socialist. And it wasn't "some"
Dem senators who didn't vote my way. Most didn't vote my way. Only 5 voted not to table the amendment, i.e., to set 12/31/06 as date certain for withdrawal of all non-training U.S. forces.
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Cappadonna Donating Member (303 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
35. Nader didn't Cost Gore the Election, but he still sucks as a Candidate
Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 07:05 PM by Cappadonna
The lame duck centrist campaign, Republicans playing dirty pool, Pappy Bush's legal cronies giving Junior the election AND (most important of all) OVER 55% OF THE ELECTORATE TWIDLING ON THEIR THUMBS AND WATCHING SURVIVOR COSTED GORE THE ELECTION!!!


  • <*>The Naderites didn't have the numbers or the message to really dent the Gore campaign, it was the fact that most of the American people couldn't be bother to get off their duffs, become knowledgeable about the issues and vote. Think of it this way, if the non-voting americans got off their duffs and voted for the #4 guy, we'd all be complaining about President Buchannan right now. Apathy is paramount to blind acceptance.

    <*>The candidates pretty much sucked wind. As we knew then and told everyone, George W. Bush was an immature, self-absorbed frat boy more interesting in killing brown people and making money for his backers than fixing our country. Its laid to bare, end of discussion. Under his ignorant watch, the financial capital of the world got bombed out, we started two wars for no good reason, we're in dept up to our eyeballs. And my personal favorite, we watched a city of 1 million plus get washed away to sea. Anyone who isn't convinced that Dubya has complete ass raped this nation and the planet with no Vaseline, is ethier an overpayed Neocon prick who doesn't get it, Bible thumper who would goosestep behind Dracula if he could quote a scripture, a CEO or mentally retarded.

    <*>Gore ran a limp wristed, don't-piss-off-too-many-soccer-moms-with-stock-dividends DLC BS. If the Gore of '06 was in the 2000 election we wouldn't be discussing this right now. Bill Clinton made a few more millionaires, kept us out of any serious conflicts and made the rich richer. That's it. If not for the neocons chasing his weiner, he would have been ho-hum president. Not a bad one, but change the nation at its core like Lincoln or FDR. He was a Goldwater conservative with a little bit of style. Hardcore progressives would call him a traitor and smiling killer. I would call him technocratic hack whose only political MO is CYA (or don't expose your penis, in his case.) Gore followed Clinton's waffling persona without his charisma. This activists were confused, moderates were bored, republicans excited about the reincarnation of Reagan and hippies searching for a messiah. Kerry did the same thing, and Hillary is going full steam ahead. They haven't learned that if you can afford Grey Goose, why settle for Smirnoff? Which leads to the last point....

    <*>And Nader was selling a half-ass incoherent liberal wet dream for hippies and disenchanted rich college kids who didn't actually care about real change. He was selling bullshit to people who would have lapped up anything to say that they were "thinking independently of the facist system, man!!" He was ego stroking and moralizing to sell more books & get more speaking engagements. And he took alot of well intentioned dorks for a ride. Hell, I was one of them in 1996. If he were REALLY serious about changing the country, given his intelligence, wouldn't he had ran for a Senate seat or as mayor of a mid size city? I'm a Connecticut native, and I would love to have gotten rid of Holy Joe in 2000. (Maybe Ed Lamount can pull it out this year.)

    I don't know, maybe Ralph could have shown people that he's just not a loud mouth hack starving for press coverage, but an actual serious political reformer who wants to see real change? He could have spoken about real reform and possible spoke in some places other than Ivy walls of colleges and high minded liberal meccas. How about Nader actually campaigning in the heartland, talking about the decaying infrastructure in rural American. Or taking both parties to task on the growth of Urban poverty by holding press conferences in places like Newark or Chicago's South side. Nothing would shock the nation more than seeing a Presidential candidate talking about anti-poverty campaigns and educational reform with crack heads running in and out of camera. And as an African American, I refuse to vote for anyone who doesn't take the issues of my community seriously.


  • The problem really isn't the Green Party, its the fact a) most Americans are more concerned about Brangelina than the fate of our democracy b) the Democrats,even for the sake of self preservation, refuse to stand up and say something and c) third party candidates are more interested in grandstanding and star fucking than real change. As a former GP candidate at the local level, I see far too many political stunts and far too little ground level old school realpolitik. How many open local government seats were either open or uncontested? Where are these left wing reformers during the school board meetings or on the public works commission? Where am I? Where are you?

    In closing I would say that Dems have to stop whining about Nader because his pissant 2% wouldn't matter if Gore was able to get people out to vote. The Naderites/Greens/Natural/Reform/Moonies need stop worry about the Presidency and just get a few dozen state rep seats and clean house in your hometown. And everyone get off your ass and vote. Bitch Less, Act More!!

    Peace -
    Capppadonna

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    Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 07:13 PM
    Response to Original message
    36. GORE WON Florida DESPITE NADER, imho
    Edited on Fri Jun-16-06 07:16 PM by Selatius
    If there was a fair recount of the entire state, Gore would have won Florida as not only the disputed counties be in play but ALL the counties in Florida. This would have been more consistent in light of the SCOTUS ruling that the recount violated the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment, which meant the recount had to be stopped. It did not mean that a new recount that recounts ALL counties and not just disputed counties was also illegal. If the SCOTUS decided to invoke the Equal Protection Clause to bat for Bush, then it is certainly possible the same tool could be turned against them by setting terms for a new recount more consistent with the clause, which is that all counties must receive the same treatment, a recount.

    There's several parties to blame for Florida, and Nader is only one of them.
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    autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 12:06 AM
    Response to Reply #36
    37. You're absolutely correct. It wasn't Nader, it wasn't the recount--IT WAS
    ...A RACE CRIME CALLED VOTER DIESNFRANCHISEMENT!!! It's been happening since "the Compromise of 1876."



    The fix was already in:


    SILENCE OF THE MEDIA LAMBS: The Election Story Never Told
    Greg Palast

    http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=33&row=2
    Thursday, May 24, 2001


    Editor's Note: Investigative reporting about voting rights violations in the U.S. have been page one news -- in Britain. Palast is fighting mad about the lack of interest shown by U.S. outlets in stories that are making waves worldwide. His report on what happened to his reporting is the latest media "whistleblower" story on MediaChannel, where this story first appeared.

    Here's how the president of the United States was elected: In the months leading up to the November balloting, Florida Governor Jeb Bush and his Secretary of State, Katherine Harris, ordered local elections supervisors to purge 64,000 voters from voter lists on the grounds that they were felons who were not entitled to vote in Florida. As it turns out, these voters weren't felons, or at least, only a very few were. However, the voters on this "scrub list" were, notably, African-American (about 54 percent), while most of the others wrongly barred from voting were white and Hispanic Democrats.

    Beginning in November, this extraordinary news ran, as it should, on Page 1 of the country's leading paper. Unfortunately, it was in the wrong country: Britain. In the United States, it ran on page zero -- that is, the story was not covered on the news pages. The theft of the presidential race in Florida also was given big television network coverage. But again, it was on the wrong continent: on BBC television, London.

    Was this some off-the-wall story that the Brits misreported? A lawyer for the U.S. Civil Rights Commission called it the first hard evidence of a systematic attempt to disenfranchise black voters; the commission held dramatic hearings on the evidence. While the story was absent from America's news pages (except, I grant, a story in the Orlando Sentinel and another on C-Span), columnists for the New York Times, Boston Globe and Washington Post cited the story after seeing a U.S. version on the Internet magazine Salon.com. As the reporter on the story for Britain's Guardian newspaper (and its Sunday edition, the Observer) and for BBC television, I was interviewed on several American radio programs, generally "alternative" stations on the left side of the dial.




    And now for something of a broader nature, this is from an extensvie analysis of 2000 data in Florida. The author, not a partisan, found that "spoiled" ballots occurred in areas where (a) George W. Bush won big (heavy Republican) counties and (b) where there were a large portion of black voters. This is heavy going but well worth review in terms of why we lost Florida. "Spoiled" ballots in Florida were in the tens of thousands.

    Not only is Nader NOT the reason we lost Florida, the recount isn't either. It was all in place before the election in terms of DISENFRANCHISEMENT through the "felon purges" taking real voters off the lists (voters who showed up!) and making sure black votes were taken off of the rolls through
    "spoilage."

    Whose Votes Don't Count?: An Analysis of Spoiled Ballots in the 2000 Florida Election

    Philip A. Klinkner, Associate Professor of Government

    Hamilton College 198 College Hill Road Clinton, NY 13323 315-859-4344
    http://www.hamilton.edu/news/florida/KlinknerAnalysis2.html

    As the tables indicate, the adjusted r2 is now quite high-the model explains over 92 percent of the variance in spoiled ballots. In addition, the percent of black voters remains significant. Finally, in areas where the combined result of multiplying the percent of voters who are black by the voter margin for Bush is positive, there is a positive correlation with spoiled ballots. To put it another way, not only does being black matter in the model, it also matters where you are black. Strongly Republican areas that also had a sizable proportion of blacks had a greater incidence of spoiled ballots. While this finding is only suggestive, it is exactly what one would expect to find in a situation where racial disenfranchisement is likely to occur--black voters are a sizable part of the electorate, but lacked the political power to ensure that their ballots are counted accurately and fairly.

    "In conclusion, this analysis offers two important findings:

    1. There is no evidence that higher rates of spoiled ballots resulted from such individual factors as education and literacy. Instead, the factors influencing spoiled ballots were systemic. Thus, rather than speaking of individuals who spoiled their ballots, we should speak of individuals who were placed in situations in which it was more likely that their ballots would be spoiled. Furthermore, this finding indicates that any effort to reduce the rate of spoiled ballots must focus on systemic solutions--improved technology, more and better election workers, and stronger efforts to investigate and prosecute any instances of corruption and/or racial disenfranchisement.

    2. Even after controlling for other factors, rates of ballot spoilage remain higher in predominantly black areas than in other areas of Florida. As the last model indicates, with all else being equal, for every 1-point increase in the percentage of registered voters who are black, there was a .07 percentage point increase in spoiled ballots.

    In addition, these rates were even higher where substantial numbers of blacks were found in counties with large margins for George W. Bush. All of this corresponds to and further reinforces the findings of the USCCR that there is evidence of racial disenfranchisement in the 2000 election in Florida. Consequently, it is important that federal authorities should investigate this matter more thoroughly.
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    leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:35 AM
    Response to Reply #37
    38. Thank You!
    for some truth and accuracy! ;)
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    skeeters2525 Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 01:05 PM
    Response to Original message
    40. No Deal
    I will always say Nader costs us 2000, along with Diebold.

    But I want the Greens to join the party, and that means we listen to them.

    Went to a Progressive Forum Weds and our guest speaker was the Green candidate for Governor in Illinois.

    This man had some great ideas, I always thought they were just about enviroment, but they had so much more.

    We need the Greens, Socialists, Moderates, Libs, EVERYFRICKIN ONE.

    Do you see what is going on in this Country. The battle is with FASCISM, and that ain't the Greens.

    My deal. I will work with the Greens locally and want their support nationally.
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    depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 02:41 PM
    Response to Original message
    42. If the party would stand up for traditional Democratic values
    Edited on Sun Jun-25-06 02:43 PM by depakid
    and stop enabling the far right and legitimizing their policies and their extremist nominees, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Simple as that.

    Cross over and vote with the far right (like 5 or 6 Senators and 42 Congress critters consistently do- with impunity) and it'll create a widespread perception of ambiguity- or wrose, betrayal- and a political vacuum.

    Which in this case is being filled by Greens, independents and people who just won't think it's worth the bother to vote.

    Political science 101.

    After 6 straight congressional losses, you'd think the Dems wouls have passed that class.
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    ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-25-06 03:01 PM
    Response to Reply #42
    43. I've been saying for some time now
    that the Democratic party does, in fact, have the power to keep another "Nader" from happening - it's just not in the way that the enforcers of party purity think.
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