Who do the DLC/New Democrats think is going to work on the Ground

for them in '06 and '08 if they cut off their "Grassroots Activists?" If they keep attacking the Howard Dean reformist wing of the party who is going to be out there knocking on doors?

They may think they can sit back and rake in the "Fat Cat Money" hire Bob Shrum and the usual failed flunkey/lackey's...because they think Bushies are imploding on their own...but how do they know that will win seats back? Do they really care as long as the Machine is fed from election to election and they can stick the money in their consultants pockets and collect money for their Think Tank activities?

Haven't we learned anything in over a decade of failed election after failed election?

F*ck 'em!

TC

It worked before, kinda.

Either I have someone I can vote for enthusiastically or I stay home. No more lesser of two evils again.

TC

both 2000 and 2004.

They stuck us with candidates that they chose FOR us based on some mythical "electability." What ever happened to the real political conventions when states reps gathered to nominate candidates and then make a choice? Nowadays, the DLC TELLS us who will be running for office even before we get to the convention.

They did not fight one single bit for the stolen votes and misused voting machines in 2000 and 2004. They paid off their consultants and gracefully accepted defeat.

Donna Brazille, Democratic consultant and DLC member was on C-Span this morning. She appeared with some guy who is President of a group called the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. Between the two of them you couldn't ask for better Republicans.

BTW, notice the name of David Mays's group, THE FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES. This is how the Republicans make it appear that this is a Democratic Group. They have a habit of naming groups in such a way that the group appears to be supporting the very opposite of what they REALLY support.More "Framing?" And then Mays says that he and Brazille agree on many things. He claims that his non-profit group is non-partisan. Yeah..Right...and a bear has feathers too.

the whole job, that grassroots activists aren't needed, just write us a check and don't let the door smack ya...

It's part of the attitude that has lost them all 3 branches of government, that disdain for rank and file party members, the people who have JOBS instead of careers and the people who contribute ten bucks at a time and eat beans three times a week so they can afford to do so instead of corporate types and lobbyists who expect a real return on their investment.

If Dean doesn't manage to win this particular struggle, the party is kaput, over, done with, go plant a lily over it.

the way politics works these days. So, the more ads the candidate buys, the more money the strategist makes. Doesn't matter if the candidates wins or loses, just if he/she buys a lot of ads.

That TV ads and mailings are all they need and field work isn't important.

Those of us out here on the Internets donated for "MoveOn.org's Ads" and the Networks didn't show them...CNN, I believe showed one or two a few times, but there was NO BUZZ.

HECK...the Networks and Cables refused to show ads from the United Church of Christ, FGS (Pun) because it didn't "fit with their policy."

Forget Ads...with this M$M Lockdown we won't get any ads any more unless they are ads we are FORCED to APOLOGIZE FOR....

It's really disgusting. It's so LOCKDOWN now...we will be lucky to get a Debate...unless it's Joe Biden (Media Darling for the Russert Whores) with Joe Lieberman (who might decide it's HIS TIME once AGAIN!)....Sheesh.

Have they come out against grassroot participation?

They are almost interchangeable. Also, if you go to the New Dem site, it looks almost exactly like the DLC site. The Blue Dog Dems are also in the same mix.

If persons who consider themselves "grass-roots activists" want to turn the Republicans out of office, they will work towards that goal in support of the Party's candidate in their district and state in the fall election season. If they do not value that goal, then they will not do such work. It up to each such person to decide what he or she values, and act accordingly.

supporting Lieberman's Independent run (if Lieberman decides to go that route). It's discouraging to those of us who've worked to try to get election reform to see articles like Bobby Kennedy's not be supported by leading Dems. It's discouraging to see Howard Dean disparaged by Wealthy donors (the Rappaports) for not getting more Dem Youth involved in the party when my experience has been working here in my own state that the Dean and Kucinich "Youth" were the ones who were out there pushing for change, canvassing and organizing on college campuses and instituting "Drinking Liberally" groups that could get the College Age and 20,30 somethings involved in an informal way. The Dean/Kucinich Youth worked with us "oldies" to have "Meet Ups" where we could connect with each other and network and start organizing Precincts, here in my Red State.

I could go on...but the Dem Establishement (New Dem/DLC) has done nothing for the party grass roots for decades. We didn't even have "voting lists" in my state of Dems until a Dean supporter took out his own time with other volunteers and went through the old paper records to put the files on a CD and that's how we got organized to work for Kerry when he became the nominee.

I could go on...but there are many of us here on DU who aren't just "keyboard warriers" ...we were out there getting involved and working to energize our party. Working for election reform...and trying to keep the voting machines without a paper trail out of our state. We were successful in that but got little help from the establishment Dems in DC who don't want to talk about it (with the exception of the Black Caucus and a few Progressives).

If those of us who have worked on the ground have had problems with the DLC/New Dems then we have a right to express our observations...one would hope. I've been a Dem all my life....it's time for us to start winning again...and we aren't going to do it with a bunch of corporate beholden insiders who don't want to "rock any boats." Hell...they couldn't even defend Kerry's boat in 2004 so how can we expect they will defend against attacks on any candidate whether it's their chosen one or the progressives choice.

:rant:

It remains each individual's choice whether or not to act. It is hard to see what not doing campaign work would achieve that was of any benefit.

an environment where it has some "nurturing" environmental factors. If I go to my local Garden Center and buy a plant and bring it home hoping it will flourish and grow...would I stick it in a pot left over from last year's soil and leave it outside hoping it would "fend for itself?"

Or...would I bring the plant home and place it in a pot with some "new soil" worked in with the soil from past plantings and a healthy dose of fertilizer or compost (if I was a good organic gardener) and give it some Sun, Water and check on it daily?

If I left it on it's own and didn't tend to it, the plant might still flourish if the Sun, Rain and enough "old nutrients" were left in the soil.
But would any good gardener hoping for success leave a plant on it's own to the elements that might be harsh and "unpredictable" and the soil which might have been "depleted" and not much use any more?

(I don't have time to do a better more pulled together analogy...but this one seemed to come to my head as appropriate.) Take it for what it is...but I think plants and soil and nourishment are what our Dems are in sore need of these days after so many years of drought and lack of any nourishment or even encouragement to grow.

Even "weeds" have harsh conditions where they cannot grow, though. But, I do understand that they tend to flourish under harsh conditions.

Gotta tell you, though....that most of us don't see ourselves as "weeds." We leave that analogy to the Religious Right who seem to be the most stinky and prikley of weeds that take over the garden because they weren't "thinned or rooted out" when they "got outta control."

Repugs are the Weeds that should have been pulled out of the Garden long ago as vile things that would take over and leave nothing but themselves left in a fallow garden devoid of birdsong, flower and joy.

Weeds......nasty things if left on their own.

"Grass-roots" activists could take lessons and inspiration from them. Weeds come to predominate where-ever they find root. It takes determined and unflagging effort even to crop them back; they cannot be eradicated. Grass makes a comparatively poor emblem; the lawn grasses most think of on hearing the term are delicate things requiring much coddling, and wholly unable on their own to stand up to weeds....

through millions of years (if biologists are to be believed) and adapating to the harshist of conditions and pesticides. They survive on while civilization goes through many ups and downs.

Democracy is fragile. It will never be a weed or a cockroach. Only the Hitlers, Emperors, Dictators, Conquerors and other vile evil doers through the ages seem to come back again and again and again.

I stick by my analogy....Democracy and Flowers need loving care. Or, we are left with the fallow garden where only the vilest of weeds with stench and thorns survive.

I could have done your analogy and said we need to be strong and thrive like weeds and crowd all else out. But, it was harsh and not appropriate to Democracy...and that's why I didn't choose it. I chose the fragility and romanticism that our little experiment in Democracy signifies.

I do not want to be a WEED...they are VILE THINGS.

So...I have nothing else to say about this...because I differ, and this is going way beyond what anyone here could make sense of but you and myself. :D

But I really do like weeds....

before we started this discussion we didn't define what your version of a weed is as opposed to mine.

So, therefore, the discussion was based on us not starting off with what we each define a "weed" as.

To some, dandelions are weeds to be exterminated by a "lawn service" or ORTHO WEED BE GONE. Yet, they are an excelent source of Vitamin C and other nutrients.

And, even "weeds" have a place in society...(those prickley, thorney, foul smelling ones that I find offensive) But, some insect needs those weeds to survive and loves the very qualities in them that I would not love in my garden.

But...I assume you got the "BIG PICTURE" in some way even though we had differing base lines in our view of "WHAT REALLY "IS" a WEED!" Your WEED might not be "MY WEED."

But...there's a "principle" somewhere in there.

Peace and :-)'s.....really....

One man's weed is another man's posey.

"I...uh...feel like I shoulda brought posies...."

Joe Pyeweed and Goldenrod which are really quite beautiful; and in my mind, so are dandelions. I also have tons of books on insects, including INSECT PESTS which includes a whole bunch of illustrations of cockroaches. Why am I saying this? Well, tonight I am too tired to add any of my own political analogies; just saying I'm enjoying this particular turn in the conversation, between you and KoKoO1.
:)

All of DU does not worship Dean as some do, all of the activists on the ground are nowhere near as anti-DLC as most of the out of touch keyboard warriors on DU and the blogs are.

PS, the DLC is doing nothing in '06 besides trying to strengthen our numbers and help gain us majorities in both houses of congress. Might I remind you that some major DLC players like Hillary Clinton are going to be re-elected handily, further aiding in our quest for a democratic majority.

As for '08, if you don't want a DLC candidate to become our nominee, then do your best to convince the primary and caucus voters to go for whoever your choice is. Donate as much money as you want to whoever you want, but don't you dare try and lambaste good democrats on this board or anywhere else for having their own opinions and beliefs about how we should win.

Grassroots in our Red State for REFORM! We all worked together and we worked for Kerry/Edwards when they were the final nominee.

I've always been clear on DU that I donated to both Kerry/Edwards and Kucinich (because I supported Kucinich's stand on Iraq) but I did the ABB Route to get a Dem in.

We were all stripes in my state...even Greendogs...we pulled together.

But, now we are on our own...looking for something better than what we've been given in the past.

Just adding...

for him? I know he lost TN in 2000, but remember that he went back there for a while to teach and mend fences. I assume that people who met him quickly saw the media characterization was wrong.

Perhaps that is when it started for you.

...that they're all out canvassing everyweekend. I think each one thinks the other is doing it so they stay home and whine about the DLC.

;-)

Worked 1/100th as hard on elections as the "Left" Progressives I know do, there would be an overwhelming Democratic majority in both Houses, a Democratic President, and no doubt a Democratic majority in most State Houses.

As for the snide commentary, my own - and the Progressives I work with - Election season starts about March - excepting, of course, 2004 - THAT election work started before the 2003 elections.

I saw an article in the wind up to '04 saying that some Democratic leaders are toying with the idea of contracting out volunteer work. It is supposed to be more effecient, given how "expensive" each volunteer is in training, advertising, food and freebees, but it hardly seems Democratic.

it's volunteers.

The Repugs have already done that. :D....And WE are NOT REPUGS!

thread...

The question comes to mind particularly when some here dismiss the "fringe Left" or what some here call - hilariously - the "hard" Left - ie., those who expect our Reps to actually work for the people, not the Corporations.

I don't know what it's like in areas with powerful Democratic Party structure, but where I live (an area that has mostly tended Repub) it was the Progressives who came together in 2004 under the umbrella of ACT - America Coming Together - who worked 24/7 for a year to help elect Kerry.

Many - if not most - were not Democrats but Greens, Working Families Party, Blanks - and among those who were registered Dem they were from the Dean/(and here more)Kucinich wing of the Party. They were MOVEON, USAction, Environmentalists, Peace Action people who called into Swing States, door-to-doored locally, gave money, endless time...

Every time we are dismissed as useless, I wonder what would happen if we took our time and our money and our feet and our talents and just....went home instead of working for Dem candidates? Because we don't work for the DLC vision of the Democratic Party.

I was beginning to wonder if my situation in my state was unusual compared to other DU'ers.

And, your mention of all the other groups: environmentalists, peace action, ACT and Greens. They were here on the ground working for Kerry, too, in my state. That group is still active, holding vigils, organizing community action on issues that matter to Dems. It's a much broader coalition than our Dem Party. Maybe one day it will lead to a third party...if we can't seem to get more support from our "establishment" Dems. But that's a long time away and we don't have much time to waste given our perilous time with the Bushies in charge. Of course if one group of Bushies go, there's the power structure that put them in charge behind them working to continue the Neo-Con legacy/dynasty.

If a candidate wants to hire, for example, a campaign consultant, and they hire outside firms to print pamphlets, or make TV/Internet ads, etc. That's all fine and dandy, the reason is that they usually have to ADMIT they are professionals that are getting hired for a job, no more, no less. Even hiring people for districts with lack of volunteers is also, technically, ethical, as long as they do not misrepresent themselves, and claim to be unpaid volunteers, but have to admit they are paid employees, at the very least.

Ethical considerations sometimes trump "efficiency" particularly when it comes to volunteers etc. Problems occur when money is earned on that level of politics. While it would be GREAT way to motivate people to register others to vote by paying them, to be honest, I really don't want to go there. Tammany Hall was notorious enough, figured Democrats would learn from THAT type of corruption.

Tammany won elections....

If a job is worth doing, it is worth paying someone to do it.

almost as many elections as they won, mainly due to their own corruption. Also, plenty of thier politicians ended up spending time in the slammer for the same reasons.

It does not mean thre is nothing to be learned from their successes.

privatizing volunteers is concerned, if the DLC has anything to do with it, those hired hands will all be Republicans.

All Democrats should ask themselves WHY the Republicans began to tout Hillary as our 2008 presidential candidate the day after the 2004 elections. Hillary is the Republican choice for Democratic presidential candidate and the fact that the DLC supports her should tell you something about that group and who gives them their marching orders.

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And those speakers would be Mark Warner, Hillary Clinton and Tom Vilsack--three of DLC's Al From's "our candidates"--the other being Evan Bayh. From said this in a Washington Journal appearance on October 25th, 2005--..."our candidates--Clinton, Vilsack, Warner and Bayh"--in that order.

http://www.ndn.org/annualmeeting/

Markos Moulitsas, who said at the Kos convention that he was close to endorsing Mark Warner, will be participating on a panel on Friday after Hillary Clinton speaks at 9:00AM.

big time.

He won twice, was the only dem that has won in a generation.

I mention this because of your comment about learning from failed elections.

By the way, I opposed him in the primaries in 1992, I couldn't stand him, but he won and turned out to be the best president in my lifetime.

Because his base was stabbed in the back by him through him using his Democratic majority to pass "free" trade and their lack of passing any univsersal health care while they had the power to.

The public had grown tired of the entrenched power in Washington and the corruption. There was a massive anti-incumbent movement.

The events had very little to do with Clinton and almost everything to do with Democrats controlling Congress for the better part of 30 years.

No you liberals haven't learned anything, electoral failure after electoral failure. You think you make a big difference by being a "liberal activist?" People hate activists.

I'm sure glad we went with another liberal, John Kerry, in 2004. Another presidential election fuck-up, courtesy of the "reformist wing." Or rather the extremist wing.

Who do the DLC/New Democrats think is going to work on the Ground for them in '06 and '08 if they cut off their "Grassroots Activists?" If they keep attacking the Howard Dean reformist wing of the party who is going to be out there knocking on doors?

1. I knock on doors and I'm a new Democrat.
2. The Democrats in my organization vary on the spectrum, but most of us knock on doors.
3. Who knocked on doors before "Howard Dean reformist wing" was around?

Haven't we learned anything in over a decade of failed election after failed election?

Clinton (DLC) won twice.
Gore (DLC) - did he win or was it stolen?
Midterms 2002 - did Dems win or were the elections stolen?
Kerry (DLC) - Did he win or was it stolen?

There is exactly ZERO (zilch, nada) evidence to support the following crutches:

1. Ross Perot allowed Clinton to win.
2. The DLC caused ANY election losses.

Humphrey, McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis, and Kerry all had their elections STOLEN! They were all stolen!! And even though the DLC wasn't formed until 1985, they were probably involved with all of them in some way, with their neoconservative co-conspirators!!!! Holy shit!!!

They were both DLC.

How can it be that one day on DU, those elections were stolen. The next day, they lost for being DLC?

Kerry outright lost. To one of the greatest morons of the 20th/21st centuries. It's no one's fault, but Kerry's.

I believe Ohio was "predestined" for Bush by Diebold and other factors.