How in the hell do you get charged with "murder" in a "war zone"?

Knowing that the other guy is out to kill you? I guess there are no "free fire" zones in Iraq? Also, I know there are "rules" even in war, but doesn't it sound a little naive and peculiar? And when somebody is shooting at your ass, how are you supposed to make "moral" distinctions? Just asking...

where nothing shocked me anymore.

accordingly.

Circumstances don't change the results.

And when you in a firefight, all moral distinctions go out the window. People with good morals wouldn't be shooting at each other.

d1

Would that do it?

.....where you "can't tell the difference between friend and foe" as I've heard it said.

noncombatant. Taking revenge for the death of a comrade by shooting innocents will do it.

Those little kids that ended up dead in their pajamas weren't gun-toting insurgents.

Your question is a bit naive. Have you ever served in uniform? You'd understand Geneva and ROE if that were the case.

I know a lot of stuff goes on in the fog of war, including killing women and children. I remember hearing GIs say right after Tet '68, "Kill the little gooks, they'll just grow up to be big gooks..." And all rationale and a moral compass went out the window. This was just before My Lai. I think we may have similar situations in Iraq. I know it's murder but there are times when it's not so easy to distinguish...especially with 19-20 year olds...just saying.

wheelchair, and the entering of homes, and I thought your query was in that context. My experience is limited to Gulf1/Rwanda/Bosnia. It's quite true that in Vietnam you'd see a situation where they'd send a small child in with a grenade every now and again, and then there are the situations in Palestine where a kid will show up at a checkpoint in a vest, but from initial reports we are hearing (and these could change, granted) these cases don't seem to equate with any "free fire" scenario. The servicemembers seem to be putting forth a "hot pursuit" defense related to their house-to-house search; it's too early to say how well that will hold up. Their lawyer will also have to find a way to establish that the statements they gave to the PIOs were made under duress and "with guarantees" (i.e. you are GUARANTEED the death penalty if you don't spill your guts), and then work to have them tossed from the CM. Absent that, they're going to jail at a minimum, and likely for a very long time.

Also, this is more of an urban war, unlike Vietnam. None of that tromping through the jungles and the rice paddies. It's more Somalia-esque for the majority of forces there. There is some countryside work being done in Anbar, but the bulk of the forces are in urban environments or trying to keep vast stretches of paved roads free from IEDs.

I state the above more facetiously than anything else. War is murder. War is not a game that we sit at home and watch on TV as our fighter jets drop bombs down the chimneys of little huts in the country. There are people, women and children, -innocent people- being murdered every day in war. It is sad that we personalize the war with a single GI but we cannot "personalize" it with an arrogant, sadistic leader? I'm not saying that war should never happen but war should happen as a last resort. This war was not a last resort and the people that support it, even those in our own families, are murderers.

I can't call him LEADER, because he's displayed absolutely no leadership qualities that I've perceived, and I do know a little something about the subject, as I imagine you do as well.

I realize it isn't a popular view here, but I DO have great sympathy for these kids who find themselves scared shitless, who were conned by the recruiter, who had no other options, and they wake up in the sandbox with seventy pounds of shit on, toting a weapon and realizing, to their horror, that it isn't a video game. It's an environment that is ripe for serious errors in judgment, for fear to take over, for revenge to rule the day. They did not ASK for this, the Monkey did. That said, if they've behaved outside the ROE and Geneva, they can't be excused.

And I also have profound sympathy for the Iraqi victims of these excesses, as well as the people caught in the middle just trying to stay alive...getting shot at by all sides, or blown up in exercises in vengeance between warring parties. They sure as hell didn't ask for this shit either.

And ya have to wonder how long the nitwit will continue to think it's OK to spill American and Iraqi blood in exchange for Iraqi oil....I swear, he doesn't want to leave until he gets a goodly amount of that oil out of the ground. That's why those kids are there. Screw freedom, screw democracy, he wants the oil, and he wants it now.

And the insurgents will keep blowing the pipeline to prevent him from getting his way...it's a fucking mess. I don't think it's gonna get better any time soon, either.

where the troops are accused of murder. On the surface it's a no brainer, children especially are a no no. Again, until some sort of truth comes out as to their mission, previous experiences with the locals, who really knows? Wars are a dirty business.

Troops that are on their 3rd tour know more about the rules of the Iraq game than any of us. We need to get out. It looks like there are very few rules in Iraq now, with the infiltration of the bad guys into the ranks of the so called good guys. Even the Iraqis don't knows?

because of everything else they're going through?

The same argument could be made of kids growing up in the ghetto.

Are we now at war with the Iraqi people? When did that happen?

Indiscriminate killing of innocent citizens should never be condoned.
But your point is well taken. That is precisely why we are against all war. Right?

I think it will hurt us in the election if the folks find out that they were under fire.

And Democrats keep calling the Marines murderers.

I admit, I don't know the details but...

is murder...we are not at war with the Iraq people and now we are in an occupation...

As far as I know, Democrats have only advocated investigation and trial. Your post is complete nonsense and you can kiss my ass!

6th Paragraph


Just Google

Murtha +murder and read the ABC story.

Remember I'm not saying they didn't do it but Democrats calling them murderers is going to hurt us if the folks find out that they were under fire.

holds a great deal of respect and clout in the Services. It was strictly adhered to regardless of the Unit I was assigned to.

Whether it be a killing from our side or like the savages that tortured and killed the 2 soldiers, murder is murder and needs to be dealt with. If we allow our people to act like fools, we lose all moral ground.

Wart is horrendous enough, killing innocents adds to the diaster.

and burn the meat from their bones, that is acceptable in the war theology. However, you are not permitted to do it on a personal level . There are rules we must follow.

the rules.

Rules don't define morality; rules define "legality". It's merely saying we bombed a mosque or a hospital is a statement saying nothing about either morality or legality. Presumably the rules (usually) are intended to somehow parallel morality, but that's a difficult task. The soldiers aren't charged with doing something immoral, but doing something illegal. They may have followed the law and been immoral, or been moral and yet done something illegal; odds are against the latter, if the law's written well.

But remember ... you can't legislate morality.

Or so I remember reading.

However you want to slice it.

initial attack. The usual power grids and water distribution was targeted as well. With some of the munitions used, the degree of accuracy was very high, and there should have been absolutely no collateral damage. But to target schools is so repulsive, it goes far beyond the pale for me.

With all of that said, since the inception of this plan, I have been against the war in Iraq. I will readily admit that I supported going in to Afghanistan to find bin-Laden, (not to just take iver the country). But, that turned into another situation where thousands died for nothing. I believed we had intelligence on the whereabouts of bin-Laden, and his capture would have put an end to the entire situation. We had world backing at that point, and no one expected this jerk of a president to expand the situation beyond getting bin-Laden initially. I now feel great empathy for those who have been irreparably damaged because of the support I could have withheld...:(

I do not joke of war, it should always be the last act after all else has failed. Those that have never seen the ravages, nor smelled the acrid odors of war seem to be the ones who continue to call for it...they should fight this war...it would end within a week; for cowards cannot sustain what the brave are forced to encounter by those cowards.

*sigh*

I don't know about this place anymore.

and shot them,,, I call that murder....

"Kidnappings" instead of "Captures"

is so much different than say, "capturing" VC and cutting their throats, cutting their testicles off and stuffing them down their throats, I guess?? Where are the flowers and the hugs?

Every person we kill is a civilian and most are just fighting against an occupying army. Every Iraqi death should be considered murder IMO.

competent to be in the military. Murder is murder and as we have seen, the US forces in Iraq have more then their share of cold blooded murderers.

BTW we are NOT at war.

...... your question was rhetorical.

Let me go a step further in my guess ...... the guys who do the most egregious acts are, in fact, heinous murders, but that the rest who kill are immunized by following their orders to a combat zone to commit technical murder and that the *actual* murderers are the ones who, by proxy, order murder committed under the guise of an illegal, unwanted, ill-advised 'war' of choice.

Have I guessed about right?

But the people that sit back here in air-conditioned offices on their big fat asses that let them do it in their names are not innocent either. They are just as guilty as the soldiers, imo...

... in my reply: ".... the *actual* murderers are the ones who, by proxy, order murder committed under the guise of an illegal, unwanted, ill-advised 'war' of choice."

A blank check from their supporters..

When you repeatedly shoot the unarmed disabled old man, and then try to make it look like he was
an insurgent by planting evidence on the body, i'm thinking it's murder.

Were they murdered? Or were they simply "collateral damage"? Just curious?

What a damn fine euphemism that is. Rumsfeld-speak for 'tough shit'. Dehumanizing.

To my way of thinking, 'collateral damage' would be ... I dunno ... knocking down the door when arresting a kidnapper holed up in a cheap motel.

How deplorable that, as a nation, we've come to accept 'collateral damage' as a term, knowing full fucking well it means **people** with their guts splattered on the wall behind them.

tens of thousands of civilians...some sucked into the firestorm from a thousand yards away. The horror of these and other situations were not known at the moment they happened, but horror is a word that expresses well what happened. It was seen as collateral damage at the time, however, both of those attacks, and several others, were war crimes in my opinion. They were both used to take down the morale of the population, and certainly did not do as anticipated. Just as those who went through the Blitz in London, it steeled the population for the long haul.

The deliberate targeting of civilians should always be seen as a crime, regardless of the circumstances. As for Zarqawi and the children that were there with him, I believe Zarqawi was a legitimate target, the children were not; and it is unlikely that the children were known to be there w/him at the time.

To be frank, I would have been delighted if Zarqawi was captured rather than 'targeted'; but I don't run the show...and this was one evil guy who deserved justice, regardless how that justice was meted out.

I think dragging an unarmed, wheelchair bound man who had surrendered out into the street and pumping him with multiple round would indeed constitute murder.