Is it possible for Jewish Americans to look at Israel in a rational ....

...and unbiased way? Understandably, there is a bond that cannot be denied. It is about the survival of their people.

But how many Jewish Senators can you name that voted against going into Iraq? (I think there was one?) Most thought it would make Israel "safer". This was paramount in Joe Lieberman's vote, in my opinion.

And why does Barbara Boxer go to Connecticut to support Joe Lieberman? There is a camaraderie amongst the Jewish community, not only in the US Senate but everywhere in this country, that will defend Israel, right or wrong. Some supporters pretend that Israel could never do anything wrong. That is the irrational aspect of their support.

Should not America look at Israel's supporters in this perspective? It is not anti-Semitic to question Israel if it is done in a rational and unbiased way, understanding the roots of their bond. But we should not depend on the Israel supporters to make policy for our country in regards to Israel, in my opinion. Those that shout "anti-Semitic!" everytime Israel is criticized are perfect examples.

Besides, I have seen plenty of Jewish commentators be critical of Israel before. America in general is overwhelmingly pro-Israeli. It always has been. They(Israelis) are mostly Europeans and we understand Europeans so we tend to favor them. The Arab and Muslim culture is one we don't understand and can't identify with.

Does that include the average every day working American?

I'm not so sure. :shrug:

Israel by wide margins. This has become far more true after 9/11. The mood in the U.S. is decidedly anti-Arab and anti-Muslim and the Iraq War has made that even worse, even as Americans oppose it or perhaps it is because of the mess that this feeling has grown. People are frustrated with that whole part of the world.

from EUROPE. However, how many kool aide right wingers will happily send their children to kill and die in Lebanon, Syria and Iran?

I seriously doubt that camaraderie will translate to anything other than air support.

That is, the rubber will meet the road when they start the draft for our impending invasion of Iran.

anti-semitic I don't even know where to begin. Saying that Jews cannot look at Israel without supporting it is exactly what people said about Catholics and the Vatican when Kennedy ran for president. Most Jews OPPOSED the Iraq war. Boxer voted against it, Levin voted against it, Wellstone voted against it, Feingold voted against it. They did NOT vote for the war so stop lying and spreading lies. Of course Jews will stand up for other Jews that they believe are being maligned, just as any other traditionally oppressed group would do. As for the Jewish senators supporting Israel, so does EVERY SINGLE OTHER SENATOR OF BOTH PARTIES. Some non jewish senators are more pro-Israel than some of the Jewish ones. There are many different views on Israel in the American Jewish community. Try educating yourself before you post this offensive shit.

I read here that are rabidly pro palestinian have a very snide anti semitic undertone to them. No surprise there.

Look up the definition of SEMITIC.

I've seen more Jewish-conspiracy posts than I can count.

I've seen more anti-"everyone-non-Jewish-conspiracy" posts than I can count, too.

edit to add:

And you also need to be fair in that everyone who is "questioning" Israel is not necessarily - ANTI-Jewish, right?

for being Anti-Jewish.

If you wish to play semantical games, great. Anti-Jewish/Hebrew then.

The idea that an Arab can't be an antisemite because Arabs are Semites is linguistic game-playing and nonsensical.

"Antisemite" has been used to mean, specifically, anti-Jewish since the late 1800s.

"Those that shout "anti-Semitic!" everytime Israel is criticized are perfect examples"

"wow, that post was so misinformed and anti-semitic I don't even know where to begin"

It wreaked of the old line anti-Jewish, Jewish conspiracy stench. Most Jews opposed the war in Iraq. 75% voted for Kerry over Bush. Several Jewish senators, Levin, Feingold, Boxer, and Wellstone voted against the Iraq War. The OP was incorrect and made generalizations that wreaked of anti-Jewish sentiment.

criticized soem of their policies and I don't say "anti-semitic" everytime someone else does the same. I do it when people lump all Jews together and make broad generalizations about Jews. I am also gay and if people here made broad generalizations about gays they would be denounced. Same for latinos or African Americans. It is too bad that some people will do as much as they can to deny prejudice against Jews.

Jews aren't. There's a portion of liberals who like trends. The cool, trendy thing is to like Arabs and be oh so sympathetic to Palestinians who send little children into restuarants with bombs strapped to their little backs.

poor poor Hamas and Hezbollah..they get such a bad name in the US :eyes:

is that ALL of the people living in that area - Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, etc. - are ALL SEMITIC peoples!

Although, now that I think about it, aren't many of the people living in Israel NOT Semites, but instead immigrated from other parts of the world? They may be Jewish in religion, but not necessarily in racial makeup, so how is it that they are Semites?

I'm asking a serious question here. I am NOT being snide, derogatory, nor derisive - I'm just one of those sticklers for exactness in language (it drives my kids crazy! - "Say what you mean and mean what you say" - I'm a "Put on your socks and shoes" - NOT a "put on your shoes and socks" type of person ....)

and I'm not Jewish. Everyone I know is staunchly pro Israel, some of them are Jews, most of them aren't.

America, in general, is staunchly pro Israel.

critique of Israel, both good and bad--you have to go to Israel. It appears to be the last sacred cow in this country. And the first one who shouts "anti-semitic" at me has just proven my point. I believe in peace, justice, and a hopeful future for Israel and Arabs alike--not just for Israel.

Although some few do see through the emotional fog.

is that you can't even question Israel's POLITICS without being accused of being a racist or anti-their-religion.

who want to be called a nazi?

that if you put 2 Jews in a room you'll get 3 opinions.

I know plenty of Jewish Americans who are extremely critical of Israeli political actions of the last several years and even before.

back during the 2000 Palestinian uprising. There is not some monolithic line of thinking in the American Jewish community. Quite to the contrary.

This is like when the Pope says something and many non-Catholics think that all Catholics will simply follow it like zombies.

But this is my perspective...But I think it may be more true than most will admit?

Levin, Feingold, Boxer, and Wellstone all voted against the IWR. American Jews were less in favor of the war than the American people in general. 75% of Jews voted for Kerry over Bush. The statistics don't square.

labeled an "anti-semite". There can be no honest discussion about Israel because of this.

There is a strong difference.

and if you don't know the sensitivities, it's admittedly easy to misstep.

Why is it that you claim that one must be "VERY careful how you phrase things?"

many did not: Feingold, Boxer, Levin, Wellstone. Actually, even my parents in law, that are 93 and 86, understand that the Iraq War would not help Israel.

I dont know why Boxer supports Lieberman, but many Jewish Democrats dont (starting by, but not only, Feingold, Sirota, Meyerson, ...).

Do most Jewish Americans care about Israel: yes. But even Israeli citizens do not agree on how to proceed.

in regards to Israeli politics and actions...in my not-so-humble opinion... Why? Beats the hell out of me??

"Is is possible for progressives and leftists to look at America in a rational and unbiased way?"

My answer is that it's about as likely as conservatives and rightists to look at America in a rational and unbiased way. We're all biased. It's our nature.

This question can be generalized to any group, whether racial, political, or religious. By its nature, group identity brings with it group-influenced understanding of reality.

Whether or not this is a bad thing or a good thing is not my point. It simply is a deeply human thing.

See Eibl-Eibesfeldt for a better understanding of the biological need to identify in-groups and out-groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_and_Hate

Peace.

"It simply is a deeply human thing."

and MOST american jews want peace, by far,

and MOST american jews do NOT like the bushesque, belligerent faction that has been controlling israel of late.

in fact, most ISRAELIS do not like the bushesque, belligerent faction that has been controlling israel of late.

there are certain parallels between israel and the u.s. in that the right-wing do NOT have majority support and yet they do have institutional control.


for the record, i'm a jew and i think lowell weicker was a better democrat than joe lieberman ever was, and i think lamont will make a better senator for connecticut and for the democratic party. planning to run as an independent in order to split the vote and throw the election to the republicans if he doesn't win the nomination is cowardly, disloyal, and offensive to democracy.

I do not agree that America is overwhelmingly "Pro Israel", nor is "Anti-Semetic". In this, as in most things we share many opinions.

for real peace in the middle east and for justice for Palestine and Palestinians. Most of what I have learned about the situation has come from Jewish American lawyers who work daily in the cause of justice in the middle east, devoting their lives to work that brings them no wealth and no prestige, and sometimes even puts them in physical danger. And, by the way, most of the Arabs whom I know personally were introduced to me by these same Jewish Americans. These American Jews and middle-eastern Arabs are lifelong friends who go to each other's children's weddings, birth celebrations, and funerals. Their friendships are based on their common work.

broadbrush...flamebait