Did Dean leave the Episcopalians over a bike path?

Well yes and no. Here is the whole story, the part that the Boston Globe and others won't tell you.

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/10/franke-ruta-g.html

Dean's own conversion to Congregationalism was a more mundane political affair. He'd been christened as a Catholic and was raised Episcopalian. But he converted to the local Vermont religion as a consequence of his battle to make over the shoreline. "I had a big fight with a local Episcopal church about 25 years ago over the bike path," he told This Week with George Stephanopoulos in September. "We were trying to get the bike path built. They had control of a mile and a half of railroad bed, and they decided they would pursue a property-rights suit to refuse to allow the bike path to be developed." Dean eventually talked church leaders out of the lawsuit, recalls Sharp, but other railroad neighbors refused to budge and litigated the case all the way to U.S. Supreme Court.

Here is the Boston Globe's take for comparison.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/25/seeking_a_new_emphasis_dean_touts_his_christianity/

Dean himself made a decision about religion in the early 1980s, opting to leave the local Episcopal church when it sided with landowners seeking to preserve private property in lieu of a bike path in Burlington.

"Churches are institutions that are about doing the work of God on earth, and I didn't think was very Godlike and thought it was hypocritical of me to be a member of such an institution," Dean said.

end of quotes

Let's take a look at the piece of work, now shall we. The American Prospect reported accuratly what Dean's problem actually was, the fact the church was being out and out selfish. They wanted money for right of way instead of helping the common good. All the while, of course, paying not one cent in taxes.

The Boston Globe has the church siding with landowners, completely leaving out the fact that it was one. Then in the middle of a quote for some odd reason whatever Dean said was replaced by (opposing the bike path). Maybe he just used it. But even if that were the case, it had an antecedent and we have to rely on this reporter to know if she supplied the correct one. Let me be blunt here. I don't think she did. I don't think she did due to her lying in our faces in the paragraph preceding. I don't think she did due to her lying about Richard Gephardt and Joe Lieberman.

"Some of Dean's competitors have made no secret of their religious beliefs. US Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri regularly describes his son's recovery from an illness as a gift of God, while Lieberman takes pains to emphasize his inability to attend campaign events on Saturdays because of the Jewish Sabbath"

This quote is an utter lie about both of those candidates. Richard Gephardt tells the story of his son at nearly every debate and his point isn't that it is a gift from God but a gift from health insurance. And Lieberman only lets people who wish him to speak or campaign on Saturday that he won't campaign on the Sabbath.

It is plain as day why Dean left that church. That wasn't the story the reporter liked so she made one up. Next time someone tells you this bildge don't believe them.

I was attending when some church members said that Jews were out to make money, even if it was connected to the death of their own children (I'd just read "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" and was told it was written merely to make money). I stood up, told the people (one of whom was my boss at the time) that attitudes like that caused the Holocost. The minister called me later and asked me to apologize. I didn't. (I realize that the entire Methodist Church isn't anti-Semetic; my argument was with this particular church)

A couple years later I found Sufism, and have been on that path ever since.

Sometimes you simply have to change your religious affiliation.

hope you are having a Merry Christmas

can you back up those charges with facts?

this was this particular church in a town in Southern Illinois where I was living at the time. I was raised a Methodist, and have found that the individual churches vary widely in their outlook. A lot of it depends on the area where they are located. The First Methodist Church in Champaign IL was extremely liberal when I was growing up. When I moved south, I found the Methodist churches there much more conservative. That is one reason I tried to stress in my post that my problem was with that particular church, not the whole denomination. The local Methodist Church here in AR is fairly conservative, but the pastor was liberal. He allowed us to have peace meetings in his church, but the congregation was in an uproar (despite the United Methodist Women having come out with an anti-war stance). Please do not think for a moment that I believe the Methodist denomination is anti-Semetic. But I've seen enough of conservative congregations that individual churches can vary widely from what the Bishops say is the way of the church.

i think it pales in importance when compared to the melding of church and state.

on bush's faith-based initiative for social services, Dean said,
"It's not a bad thing to have churches involved in delivering social services, but I think the president has used it to reward certain churches and make it less likely for others churches to prosper," he said.


so as long as our tax money is givien fairly to churches it's OKay by dean.

but "strict constructionalist" may be the next words out of his mouth.

I mean that's great - but I haven't seen you rail against this. The only time it appears that it bothers you is if Dean's name is attached to the issue.

A laaaa tee dooo......

If, and this is not what Bush proposed, a church is willing to follow all the rules that other places do then they should get money. If they won't then they shouldn't. To illustrate, since some people like to twist words, if a church wants to feed the homeless and neither prolestizes nor discriminates then I have no problem giving them money.

to the church. Why should the government decide which churches to send money to?

Catholic Charities does serve many people and does follow all the rules. Thus they do often get government contracts. I have no problem with that.

why is it that folks who attack Dean never want people to be able to check the context of these quotes?

Are they worreid people won't reach teh same conclusions?

I searched google for "It's not a bad thing to have churches involved in delivering social services, but I think the president has used it to reward certain churches and make it less likely for others churches to prosper" and did not get a single hit.

So what's the source on that quote?

Link?

but no context at all is given there.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/25/seeking_a_new_emphasis_dean_touts_his_christianity/


my bad for not including it but the article was all over the board yesterday and i guess i thought everyone had read it by then.

third paragraph from the bottom.

If this is best that Repugs can do, then this is really sad.

congregational church. Not sure why only it feels right and congregational sort of come from that group years and years ago.My mother and Grandparents were Episcopal church but since their was no church where we lived we went to Cong. church which was my father's church.I can see Dean doing that. I have a good laugh about the cong. church as some are still fighting having a cross in the church. Do recall it was the church of the Puritans and nothing was done for Christmas.It was run by the membership.

:kick:

and Dean has been a major part of it. He was absolutely right to take issue with the church over this, and something that I was unaware of, but which makes me even prouder of him.

How many months a year can you use a bike path in Vermont anyway? 4 or 5 tops.

I'm sorry, but this is just goofy. The BIKE PATH that caused people to leave their church and led to a Presidential Candidate? What the HELL kinda bike path was it, the BIG DIG bike path? Missile defense bike path? Great Bike Path of Cheops?

This all seems like an episode of Newhart.

which last time I checked was not very Christian.

Thank you, Judy Woodruff.

Judy Woodruff is so simplistic it is easy for them to use her to slip these things in.

that we're discussing a presidential candidate's actions in favor of a bike path?

The question of the role of religion and religious institutions in society can be better framed than this... and i think it is interesting to explore how all the candidates stand on such issues.

In my opinion, discussing Dean's stance on the bike path at all feels as if it is intended to make him seem more mayoral than presidential. It's an inane issue - and it seems presented to make Dean seem small and petty. At the same time, by suggesting he'd not only challenge his church, but he'd change churches as a result will play poorly - that he prefers decentralized churches - and that he doesnt attend church regularly were all presented before Dean's stance on various religious issues. If this were a poll, i'd call it a push-poll. I may not support Dean, but this is a little over the top for my tastes.

I really do have to wonder given that you wrote that in response to it.

i dont see the reporter making anything up here, but i do think the fact that she chose to use this aspect of Dean's religious life as telling. She could have spoken of Dean's committment to his church, etc... instead she chose to discuss a story exhibiting other far less desirous ramifications. You make the point that the whole story includes efforts on behalf of the bikepath that were just. My point is talking about Dean's sprituality in terms of a bikepath seems an effort to not only discredit him, but to make him seem extremely unpresidential - and that in my mind it was intentional (which i think is a much nastier assault on your candidate than the questionable story edit you describe).

but that greed, exhibited by a church, is bad. I wouldn't belong to a greedy church either. Her questionable edit is why we are discussing bike paths and not greed.

for the sake of argument, lets say that the point Dean wanted to make by talking to This Week was that he left the church because he felt the church was greedy. That's a much better story.
The globe author instead chooses to frame the argument around the specifics rather than the conceptual, and says 'opting to leave the local Episcopal church when it sided with landowners seeking to preserve private property in lieu of a bike path' etc etc

Fair enough?

I'm saying this story is rife with negative framing of Dean the candidate - it isnt limited to the question of bikepaths - and that it's likely intentional.

but she doesn't even stop there. She also does it to Gephardt and Lieberman while leaving the hypocritically religious Bush alone.

a man's personal decision to worship as his conscience dictates.

I just don't care what label is applied to a person's faith. I measure it's effect on their character and actions instead.

For instance, Bush can quote scripture until he's blue in the face and I wouldn't believe him to be a Christian because every political position he holds is inconsistent with fundamental Christian tenants. It's just lip service or delusion.

when the several posts were up yesterday? Or do you only find it odd now when Dean is being defended?

I took the day off yesterday. I am only now digesting it. Have I gotten something wrong?

I have no objection to people defending Dean for changing to a different church. I was trying to communicate the fact that I don't see how it's relevent, regardless of the cicumstances. What am I missing?

and Merry Christmas.

It is time to answer the people who are trying to use it as a wedge issue.

When Judy Woodruff interviewed Dean on this, he stood his ground. He refused to let her tout Bush's wonderful religion.

He called them Pharisees, and they are.

Dean has an ingrained sense of right and wrong. This is about a lot more than just a bike path. Others used the issue first, and we are defending him.

This is ridiculous.

Tell your complaints to Judy Woodruff who started the ball rolling:
SNIP..In my opinion, discussing Dean's stance on the bike path at all feels as if it is intended to make him seem more mayoral than presidential. It's an inane issue - and it seems presented to make Dean seem small and petty...."

Say thank you to the media.