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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 07:48 AM
Original message
Ronnie "Cut and Run" Reagan ......
Edited on Mon Jul-31-06 07:58 AM by WCGreen
Yep, last night on CNN, they ran a special about the Marine car bombing in Beruit...

You remember, the one where over 200 of our fighting men were killed while they slept...

Of course all the bluster and tough talk emanated from the California "Cowboy", the "tough as nails" Reagan, the president with the "stare 'em down. Steely-eyed resolve..."

They even id'ed the barracks of the budding terrorist group known as Hezbulla, had the HQ in the cross hairs but the order to fire never came from the White House....

Well, within three months, the mighty Reagan pulled those remaining troops out of Lebanon against the wishes of his National Security Adviser and, well, cut and ran like the wimp he really was...

Oh yea, somewhere in the weeks that followed the destruction of our Marine Barrack in Beirut, the liberation of Grenada took place....

What a glorious time it was to be an American...

At least Carter and Clinton tried to do something even against the blustering howl of isolationist republicans...

So the next time some GOP tough as nails guy get's in your face about how resolute the GOP is when it comes to standing up to terrorists, be sure to reintroduce them to "Cut and Run" Ronnie....

The man who is ultimately responsible for the war raging now in Lebanon...
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. Them thar Terr-wrists weren't the bogeyman then
The Soviets were...
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reichstag911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 08:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. He was no coward.
Edited on Mon Jul-31-06 08:17 AM by reichstag911
After all, he did lots of military work, only on film, like his fellow chickenhawk Marion Morrison...er...John Wayne. And he did kick Grenada's ass, don't forget.

:eyes:
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enigma000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
3. How did that make him responsible for the war?
The marines were sent in to restore order. They failed and were withdrawn. Did it really make matters worse? What was the alternative?

Never read anything suggesting Reagan was a peacenik on this website before........
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. He could have destroyed Hezbullah before it really
took hold...

He showed the terrorists that America lacked resolve....

That they could operate without fear of American reprisal...

Not a peacenick...

Tlking loudly and carrying a very small stick...
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. I hear a VERY similar argument from repukes about Clinton and Carter. n/t
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Well, at least Clinton and Carter tried to do something....
Reagan just talked about doing stuff and never had the balls to pull the trigger....
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. The problem with this tact,
If you're looking to have an intelligent discussion with someone, is that it oversimplifies the issues going on there. If Raygun had destroyed the Hezbollah barracks, would we have wiped out the entire organization? Was our intelligence even correct? As we've learned, our intelligence in the Middle East is not very good. Would our bombs have killed innocent civilians? What would have been the response from other countries and organizations in the Middle East to this action? Would another organization just have moved in to fill the void? Yes Raygun missed an opportunity, for sure, but could this have also been avoided if Carter had handled things differently during his administration? Could different policies during Poppy and Clinton's administration also have prevented this? I think an argument could have been made for any of these. IMHO, by laying the blame on Raygun and him alone, you're kind of painting yourself into a corner. You are now in a position where you have to argue that all other factors are irrelevant, and that this conflict was destined to happen the day Raygun "cut and run".

But then, most repukes that I've met have a poor grasp of the facts and almost no debating skills, so you'll probably do fine with this.

Just my 2 cents.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Tha camp was isolated.....
Hezbulla was just emerging as an organization....

This would have sent the right message to the terrorists that the US will not stand down....

Could it have been different...

Hell yes....

All I am saying is that if Reagan had backed up his words, perhaps the explosion of terrorist groups would not have taken place...
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I'm skeptical
Edited on Mon Jul-31-06 11:12 PM by hughee99
As an organization that was founded by followers of Khomeini's and financed by Iran, I have to think that the bombing of their HQ in Lebanon would have not been anything more than a temporary setback. Even if so, I think another organization like Islamic Jihad, for example, may have just filled the void left and it would just be a different group in the same situation now.

I agree that if Reagan had backed up his words, perhaps the explosion of terrorist groups would not have taken place, I just think that's a much different argument than "Cut and Run" Ronnie... The man who is ultimately responsible for the war raging now in Lebanon..."
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. It is always a what if proposition...
But I firmly believe the US would have been in a much better position had RR followed through...

Perhaps Lebanon would not have decended into Civil War and become the breading ground it was for terrorists....
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hughee99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. My understanding was that
the Civil war began around 1975. I suspect you're right about RR following through, though.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. A "peacenik" , that old Republican favorite, equals a coward?
Edited on Mon Jul-31-06 09:36 AM by Benhurst
Hmmm.

Yes, Reagan did bluster into Beirut, but his failure to take reasonable precautions to protect the Marine base so shortly after a similar attack on the American embassy was an outrageous blunder. The Marines' hasty "withdrawal," followed by the shelling of the very city they had been sent to protect, made even our "retreat" from Saigon look dignified. And the shelling of Beirut from off shore after being routed, was the worst of all options.

Not to worry though, the humanitarian and foreign policy disaster was quickly obscured by Reagan's comic opera invasion of Grenada.

Reagan was good at making bold pronouncements ("We'll never negotiate with terrorists!"), but not following through ( Iran/Contra).

He was a grade B actor, playing "the president," just as George W. Bush is now playing the rough and tough Texas cowboy, while the corporate media successfully hides from the public the absurdity of a would-be Lone Ranger who is unable to ride a horse because he is terrified of them.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. I got the feeling the author wasn't saying Ron was a peacenik
Edited on Tue Aug-01-06 12:10 AM by barb162
but inneffective.
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The Deacon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. Actually
Osama bin Laden points to Reagan pulling the Marines out of Lebanon as proof that the Americans can be forced to abandon political positions - if the "body count" is high enough. So, in a way, Reagan is responsible for 9/11.
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stopbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. See my thread from Saturday:
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
12. And how about daddy Bush...
encouraging the Shiites and Kurds to rise up against Saddam after the '91 Gulf War only to leave them get slaughtered.
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Montauk6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
14. Yes, the REAL inspiration for "Wag the Dog"
Yet, Messrs. Mamet and Levinson chose to go the salacious route in their highly (imho) overrated movie. Here's a bit from the Wiki entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wag_the_Dog)...

Less than a month after the movie was released, President Bill Clinton was embroiled in a sex scandal arising from his relationship with Monica Lewinsky. Over the course of 1998 and early 1999, as the scandal dominated American politics, the US engaged in three military options: Operation Desert Fox, a three-day bombing campaign in Iraq that took place as the U.S. House of Representatives debated articles of impeachment against Clinton; Operation Infinite Reach, a pair of missile strikes against suspected terrorist targets in Sudan and Afghanistan just three days after Clinton admitted in a nationally televised address that he had an inappropriate relationship with Lewinsky; and Operation Allied Force, a months-long NATO bombing campaign against Serbia that began just weeks after Clinton was acquitted in his Senate impeachment trial. Critics, including Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, charged that the former operation was an attempt to distract attention from the Lewinsky scandal, and Serb state television went so far as to broadcast Wag The Dog in the midst of NATO attacks on Serbia. The video cassette version of the film contains an extended feature after the credits that has commentary about the movie in the context of the Lewinsky scandal by the producers of the movie and Tom Brokaw. Similar accusations may have led to the curtailment of operations against terrorist training camps in Afghanistan on August 20, known as Operation Infinite Reach, 3 days after Clinton admitted to a Grand Jury he had had improper relations with Lewinsky. This would end up being the major reaction to the bombing of the United States' embassies in Africa, as other preemptive actions against Osama bin Laden would be politically impossible for Clinton.


And here we are today living with the consequences. And to add salt to the wound we've gotta put up with the wingnut talking points blaming Big Dog for letting OBL get away. GOD! I HATE THESE PEOPLE!!!!
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