Ascribing all ills to 'Diebold' is a disservice to the effort to fix .....

..... the vote count cheating issues and to the Democratic party.

Before you reach for your flamethrowers or give in the impulse to 'educate' me on the problems we face, hear me out.

By way of example, have a look at this thread. blackwell is getting C-R-U-S-H-E-D ...

My friend, welshterrier2, rightly notes about the citation of Ted Strickland's 25 point(!) lead over Blackwell that it will take a virtually impossible level of cheating to overcome such a lead.

Immediately, the swarm of The Mighty Diebold responses appeared.

If things are so hopeless that a MASSIVE 25 point lead is erasable by chicanery, why is anyone who would answer with the tired and trite 'Diebold will do it' sendup still sitting at their computer posting such tripe? Why aren't you out in the streets, armed to the teeth, taking back a country that has been stolen from you? Because if a 25 point lead can evaporate in mere seconds to, we have no more democracy.

Further, if such a thing is true, then no amount of effort can overcome The Mighty Diebold and all the activists working to change the situation should just fold their tents and go home.

Lastly, if The Mighty Diebold is that powerful, why should ANY of us work to influence the Democratic party or work to influence our elected officials.

If things that flat-out hopeless, maybe I should just lay in a fetal position until I starve and die.

We should be on the streets! Not with rifles but with protests and we should be talking about transparency, equal rights, and fair and free elections.

... you may notice that happening.

Have you been on the streets?

The polling results out of Ohio are a sign that, at least in one state, the tireless efforts of the grassroots are working.

like you say, with a 25% lead, Diebolding is IMHO out of the question...

One other MAJOR point, Diebold is only one of the voting machine companies controlled by the Repugs. All the other major ones are also controlled.

Very true. None of them are on the up and up. Diebold gets the press because of Wally Odell's famous promise to deliver Ohio to the idiot son.

Uneven allocation of voting machines, unpredictable handling of absentee and provisional ballots, etc., etc., can shave a few points off a candidate's total. "Diebolding" (to lump all the above into one category) only works in close elections -- which we've had at the presidential level two times in a row. Washington's State's last governor's race is an example where Diebolding NEARLY worked.

If a 25-point lead were to disappear (as opposed to a 2-3-point lead, a la Kerry 2004), it would be the same as admitting to election theft. It would not stand, there would be a million challenges, and the thief would never have any legitimacy in office. Look as Schimpanski, whose elections were so close that many people believe he actually won, and yet who is still considered by many people (myself included) not to be the legitimate president.

We need to put these races out of reach of the Diebolders by campaigning better. The Republicker record is an unmitigated disaster -- much worse that Schimpanski's going into 2004. Without being overconfident, I think we can do it.

Yes, there was very likely real, criminal cheating in the last three elections. I don't think anyone who is in the least inclined to rational critical thinking could conclude otherwise.

It is my view that if there *is* cheating in this cycle, it is least likely in Ohio. Both of the high profile races have the Dems in the lead and because of 04 and Hackett's 'high humidity' loss against Schmidt, all eyes will be on them this go-round.

here, myself included, DON'T GIVE UP dear. We would be completely lost without our fave, funny, and most spirited stinky.

Even though on most matters I'm a deluded optimist, I'm not terribly hopeful about the mid-terms given how the issue of election fraud has been systematically and summarily suppressed and scarcely addressed.

However a deep abiding sense that this goon squad simply can't get away with their corrupt chicanary for much longer is about all from which I derive solace.

I've said this a gazillion times before but these heinously vile neocons will be taken down by the same force that has caused the fall of every imperial power throughout recorded history. That would be their own hubris.

tra la la

.... I'm not about to give up. Honestly. I'm the last person who would assume the fetal position.

Yes, their hubris will, indeed, be their downfall. It has been said of them for many years longer than the cabal's been in power that Republicans *always* over reach. They will stay true to form.

While I don't think they're all that inclined to screw around with Ohio this year, were they to make that mistake, they'd get busted fast.

Next, in order for the cheating to be worth the doing, it would have to be ****both**** massive and widespread. This is not a presidential election where one state means everything. There are 435 House races. Let's say 15 or 20 are competitive. They'd have to have skilled cheaters in each one of them. That's just too big too hide. And if *just* one is caught red handed, the whole house of cards collapses.

Hold on to your 'deluded optimisim'. I'm right there with you!

..around "armed to the teeth."

One can believe there is a huge vote fraud problem without believing that violence is the best solution.

.... 'Mr. Literal'?

Not every over the top rhetorical device is to taken as a literal statement of personal policy.

...show it in their DU posts.

If you don't want them to express it in DU posts, and you don't want them to get violenet, then what do you want them to do?

frankly, i just didn't have the heart to address it ...

we might say that if EVERYTHING is meaningless because of election fraud, there is no point in even having DU or discussing national issues (except for election fraud) ... there's no point in discussing the views of prominent Democrats ... there's no point in discussing what the Democratic platform should be ... domestic and foreign policy? who cares ...

let me say this to people who ONLY talk about election fraud: STFU already!!

i am working on election fraud issues in my state ... it's a critically important issue ... i have no problem discussing it at great length ... i see it as very real and very dangerous ...

but to post it in the way some have done in a thread that posted a poll is bullshit ... how about acknowledging that a 25% lead reflects an awareness on the part of Ohio voters that blackwell is a corrupt asshole????? how about that Mr. One-Note?? sheesh ...

how about acknowledging the risk to the republican party if they try to get away with it again when there is such a large polling gap???? no discussion there?? just "they'll steal it; they'll steal it; they'll steal it" ... great ... thanks so much for contributing to the discussion ...

and thanks again to Husb2Sparkly for raising the issue ...

..... and thanks for posting good news in your thread!

Blackwell has stated there is no need for paper-trail voting machines and Bush clamours about spreading our brand of freedom and democracy thru-out the world?!!

An evaporating 25 point lead seems to lie toward the fantastical end of the spectrum ......

...... at least in Realityville ....

Blackwell who have done everything they can to suppress voters. Diebold is a mere term to encompass the whole problem.
It is with hope that a wide enough spread in the polls would prevent one from trying to steal an election. But time will tell and Yes if it does happen then there is no hope for our Democracy.

See my post, earlier in this thread, with regard to my view of the chances for cheating in Ohio, specifically, this cycle.

reason that Blackwell is getting crushed is because his party is loaded with nastyass racists. Some are closet racists, some are "out there" racists, and some are "Well, I think I just will stay home and not vote this year" racists.

Diebold can only give you a successful cheating outcome if the polling falls somewhere within the margin of error, or perhaps a point or two extra, if they wanna be bold, and push it. Thus, if Blackwell was within, say, plus or minus five points of his opponent, they could pad his score by that much and maybe a smidgen more to put him over the top. Anything beyond that and the stink gets far too great to bear.

I suspect if the GOP candidate was some tough talking whitey, the race would be much closer.

And on edit: Desperate Times, they sure do call for DESPERATE Measures!!!!! Check out the OUTRAGEOUS parsing that's happening in religious circles:

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060825/NEWS01/608250336

The minister group, Clergy for Blackwell, which includes black and white ministers, plans news conferences Monday in Columbus and Cincinnati in a move sure to add to a debate in Ohio over the role of religion in politics.

One of the group's members, Pastor Russell Johnson of the 4,000-member Fairfield Christian Church, is the subject of an IRS complaint filed by liberal ministers alleging Johnson has violated federal law by supporting Blackwell.

The governor's race is being closely watched ahead of the 2008 presidential election where Ohio, which gave President Bush the White House in 2004, is again expected to be pivotal. Bush benefited from religious conservatives turning out to approve a constitutional ban on gay marriage.

Bill Owens, director of the conservative Coalition of African-American Pastors, said he believes people can distinguish between his job as minister and his support for Blackwell. He said the coalition represents 20,000 pastors nationwide.

"I'm speaking as a person and we have that right to speak as an individual," Owens told The Associated Press. "Because I'm a minister, it doesn't take away my right as a private citizen."

Johnson said Thursday his support for Blackwell is as a citizen, not a minister....

Could this be STEP ONE to shave that TWENTY FIVE percent down to SEVEN or so????

Strickland must win. We need huge turnout. You have commented reasonably on this issue in the past and here's some reason to keep it in the forefront.

They had a special election in Ohio, right after Blackwell installed his 100% Ohio Diebold system. On the ballot issues, the margins were about the same as they are for Strickland, and people were pumped.

Then a miracle happened. The margins reversed themselves 180 degrees on election day. Amazing. Everyone hid and said boo hoo and I said, this will embolden Blackwell, make him think we're such chumps he'll do it again. You decide but the Columbus Dispatch poll that was turned upside down is one of the highest quality polls at predicting political outcomes.

Polls are great but "the machines" don't take the polls, they do the counting which, as you will see can be 180 degrees different.

on this topic. Thank you for this post.

I could not agree more about the value of turnout.

Will they cheat if they can? I have no doubt of that.

Votes for people will rile up people much more than votes for issues.

I think the lights are on in Ohio. I have more faith than I've had in long time that dedicated activists like you, with support and encouragement from people like me, will do everything possible to make sure the election's final outcome is reflective of the will of the people - whether that's on election day or after a court decision months hence (i.e.: what's going on as we speak with regard to CA50 and the lightspeed with which the 'winner' was sworn into office).

We ain't chumps no mo'.

We both just want the damn votes taken and counted fairly. How hard is that? Not very.

The comments by Hillary in Ohio about the lousy electoral system were the direct result of agitation
galore by people right here. I sent your famous "lissen up" memo to DNC and some Hill folks and made
sure that they got it. Dean is also responding much better than before. He's consistent and brutal
in his attacks on the notion that anyone using any means, e-voting for now, can steal our votes. This
is a loooong way from where they were so complaining and pushing helps.

The Ohio election is crucial and we cannot, as you point out, stay home or throw in the towel. Anyone
who says we should is probably a plant anyway.

Right now, Blackwell is no notice by the party, finally (and it has to be repeated in strong terms):
we know your M.O. so no more bullshit.

Speaking of which, how do you like that Mexican protest bull...:rofl: They know how to make the point.

either elected or as civil servants

keep a close eye on those machines, make sure they are allocated correctly and tested within an inch of their little silicon lives

and scream like scalded cats if things look fishy

The Repubs figured that out a long time ago ... back when they were out of power and just running for seemingly meaningless local offices.

Nothing is meaningless.

And the attack should be made on ALL machine fraud, but election fraud and vote suppression is a key issue, too. And many of the ways that occurs is thru LEGAL suppression that an unaware Dem party fails to counter WHILE it's happening in the months and years BEFORE the election.

There are, indeed, problems. We do, indeed, need to remain vigilant against them. But they are not a reasn to give up hope and stop fighting.

DON'T TREAD ON ME!


Can you tell I love old movies?

to agree with some of your points, Husb2Sparkly, although not with your remark that alarm about Diebold/ES&S is "tripe." It ain't tripe. Diebold/ES&S really DO have a monopoly on our voting systems, all run on TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls, and they really ARE Bushite corporations.* And this really IS tyranny. Near textbook definition of it--vote tabulation that no one can see, and that no one can verify.

But I have NEVER said that this was cause for despair, reason not to vote, or excuse for lack of citizen political activism and vigilance. Far from it! I support all kinds of citizen activism in every way I can. I can't go to street protests myself, because I'm old, not in great health, and live in a remote rural area far from population centers--and I'm poor. But I do what I can. I even send money when I can--to good candidates and other good causes.

But I strongly believe that we MUST NOT put our head in the sand on this PRIORITY #1 ISSUE--the fundamental basis of our democracy, and the fundamental MECHANISM OF CHANGE: transparent elections.

We MUST face it--or they will keep stealing elections. These election theft corporations may back off in a race where the non-Bushite has a 25% lead. They would be smart to do so. They would also be smart to throw us a few bones in November--to take the heat off their NON-TRANSPARENT vote tabulation systems, to save them, say, for '08. But I can assure you they will not permit an anti-war, anti-Bush majority in Congress, even though this is the overwhelming opinion of the majority of Americans. Clever, hard-to-detect vote vote switching, in small percentages here and there, in all the close races would be their wisest course. (Easily done: one insider hacker, a couple of minutes, leaving no trace.)

However, I would like to point out an example of just such a situation as you describe, which occurred recently with regard to the election reform initiatives on the ballot in Ohio last year. These election reform initiatives were predicted to win by 60/40 margins--in highly reliable polls just before the election. On election day, however, all of them LOST--by 60/40 margins! The likely culprit: unverifiable e-voting systems. Bob Koehler writes about it: Title: "Poll Shock" 11/24/05) http://commonwonders.com/archives/col321.htm

"The story is about how America votes, and evidence that pandemic chaos and perhaps even centrally orchestrated malfeasance are accompanying the spread of electronic voting machines to the nation’s precincts. We know there’s cause to worry about the state of our democracy because of the historical accuracy of the Columbus Dispatch voter poll." --Koehler

Koehler rakes the corporate news monopolies over the coals for presuming that the the Columbus Dispatch voter poll--legendary for its reliability--was wrong, on the four election reform issues alone, and NOT on the other, unrelated issue--and failing to look to UNVERIFIABLE e-voting as the cause of this astounding flipover of public opinion).

This IS the situation, Husb2Sparkly. They CAN do this. They have total NON-TRANSPARENT control of voting results--AND a lapdog press that refuses to question private, SECRET, corporate vote counting. And we MUST do all our political work with this in mind. They have inflicted us--the citizens of this country, the voters, the great progressive MAJORITY--with a double-handicap. Nay, a triple- and even quadruple handicap. We have to overcome a routine 5% to 10% "thumb on the scales" for Bushites, warmongers and corporatists. This handicap is virtually undetectable in the high-speed, invisible, unaccountable environment of electronic vote tabulation. (Even the optiscan voting machines, which have a paper ballot, receive either NO auditing in some states, or very inadequate auditing--so the paper ballot is nearly useless for detection of fraud that may occur far away from the evidence of the vote--the ballot--in central tabulators located in the state capitol. If the paper ballot votes are not first counted by hand at the precinct level, with results posted at the precinct level, before any electronics are involved--which, of course, never occurs--then the "results" at the other end are entirely untrustworthy. And the touchscreens are even worse--entirely unrecountable, and unauditable--not even the slight deterrent effect of a possible (but rare) recount.)

The second handicap is the utter lack of vigilance of the lapdog press. The third is the utter lack of vigilance--indeed, mind-boggling lack of vigilance--of our Democratic Party leadership. And the fourth is corporate operatives who are trying to throw the spotlight off of optiscans, by knocking the touchscreens (paperless voting)--apparently in an effort to preserve the trade secret, corporate programming that pervades electronic voting systems (in all the voting machines--touchscreens and optiscans, and the central tabulators). (I put Common Cause and portions of the Democratic Party leadership in this category--and what I smell is corruption on big government electronics contracts.)

A quadruple handicap GOING INTO the elections. ADD filthy campaign money, dirty tricks and all the rest, and we really have an uphill battle to put true representatives of the people in office. Almost like Sisyphus pushing his rock up the mountain.

To ridicule concern about these electronic voting systems is a disservice to voters and campaign workers. They deserve to know what they are up against. For one thing, it makes unfair defeats more bearable. It's better to know why, or at least where to look for the answer, than to flounder around wondering if your "message" wasn't just right. It MAY NOT BE the "message"--nor any fault of the candidate, nor any lack of hard work by the campaign. It may just be fraud. And I'm with Bob Koehler on that. If you have NON-TRANSPARENT vote tabulation, using SECRET CODE, with no verifiability, and you have reason to think you should have won, you'd best look there FIRST, at the NON-TRANSPARENT vote tabulation.

Our country is sick unto death with lies. It's time for the refreshment of truth and reality. Long past time. And this is the truth and the reality of our election system. It has been gravely compromised--a deliberate act, with malice aforethought*. It is wide open to fraud. And the people we are opposing have no scruples whatsoever at taking any dirty advantage they can gain--because their program of fascist rule--unjust war, mass murder, torture, massive thievery, lawlessness--is unacceptable to most Americans. They cannot get elected honestly. And they know it.

Husb2Sparkly, I do share your concern about the morale of voters, political workers and the American people in general. But I don't think that morale will be boosted by more inexplicable losses at the polls. My remedy, in the short term, is to support the ABSENTEE BALLOT PROTEST. If enough people vote AB (and it has been increasing rapidly--it's up to 50% in Los Angeles), we can create sufficient panic and crisis in the election theft industry to FORCE election officials to the table, and perhaps salvage the '08 primaries and general election. AB voting won't get us accurate vote counts this fall (AB votes are not particularly safe either), but massive AB voting CAN get us quicker reform. This is a BOYCOTT of the riggable machines, aimed to produce a large citizen "vote of no confidence" in trade secret, electronic voting counting. The goal is to FLOOD election officials with MOUNTAINS of paper AB votes, and let the machines sit idle. Don't vote on them. Don't touch them. Don't cooperate with this non-transparent electronic system. The AB voting protest also can help morale and turnout. It's easy. Everybody can do it. (Most states have some form of AB voting**.) Your AB vote becomes more than a vote--it becomes a PROTEST, and a way to spur reform.

Blacks in the American south had a lot of handicaps. That didn't stop them. Blacks in South Africa had a lot of handicaps. That didn't stop them. Indians in India had a lot of handicaps. That didn't stop them. The disenfranchised poor and brown voters in Mexico have a lot of handicaps. That's not stopping them.

It's time we stopped being such wimps--and stood up tall and brave, like the great and progressive people we are--and take back our country, despite every handicap this fascist regime can heap upon us. We don't need to be coddled, and fooled with a pretend democracy. We can take the truth. Indeed, I think Americans are hungering for the truth. You want to know why Bush is still in office, and is even now planning ANOTHER disastrous war, against Iran--despite EIGHTY-FOUR PERCENT disapproval of any U.S. participation in a widened Mideast war? You wonder how they can pass another tax cut for the rich, with a $10 TRILLION deficit? The answer is not hard to figure out. It's because they sneaked electronic voting, run on TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by Bushite corporations, right by us during the 9/11-Anthrax crisis.*

And if we want our country back, step one is to throw these election theft machines into 'Boston Harbor'! Bust the Machines--VOTE ABSENTEE THIS NOVEMBER!

-------------------------------

*(The fast-tracking of these highly insecure and insider hackable electronic voting systems occurred during the 2002-2004 period, as the result of a bill engineered by the biggest crooks in the Anthrax Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney--now indicted or resigned in bribery scandals--the so-called "Help America Vote Act"--which provided nearly $4 billion in boondoggle funding mainly to two electronic voting corporations with very close ties to the Bush junta. And they are:

DIEBOLD: Until recently, headed by Wally O'Dell, a Bush-Cheney campaign chair and major fundraiser (a Bush "Pioneer," right up there with Ken Lay), who promised in writing to "deliver Ohio's electoral votes to Bush-Cheney in 2004"; and

ES&S: A spinoff of Diebold (similar computer architecture), initially funded by rightwing billionaire Howard Ahmanson, who also gave one million dollars to the extremist 'christian' Chalcedon Foundation (which touts the death penalty for homosexuals, among other things). Diebold and ES&S have an incestuous relationship; they are run by two brothers, Bob and Todd Urosevich.

These are the people who "counted" 80% of the nation's votes in 2004, under a veil of corporate secrecy. Trust them at your peril. I think we've already lost a lot of lives to these jerks.)

-----

**(Ironically, one of the Ohio initiatives that the machines voted down was to make Absentee Ballot voting easier in Ohio. The machines and their masters are now dictating election policy!)

away from people who don't take time to find out what is going on within the party. They are taking on voter suppression, and to the extent they can they are taking on voting machines. Governor Dean has said he is concerned, and he makes calls on the machines to the people in the state positions.

There is a lot at the DNC.

I agree with the OP here. It takes too much responsibility off the candidate. Busby, for example, refused to address the Iraq issue directly. She refused to put the DFA and PDA endorsements on her website? Why would that be? To avoid being labeled or tied to "libruls."? I don't know.

I quit working and donating to most voting and election activists websites. There needs to reason and awareness. Some have it,some don't. Some realize there is a limited amount we can do right now, some don't.

It is never enough. Nothing anyone in the party will do will ever be enough.

Sometimes the candidates are just not running good campaigns, and it is their own fault they lose. We refuse to face that possibility. Some are afraid of the DSCC and DCCC, and they do exactly as they tell them.

Right now the Clinton machine is apparently taking over the Lamont campaign. Why? Don't know. Support is one thing, but sending Howard Wolfson from Hillary and Stephanie Cutter from Reid....is a whole other ball game. I hope "Swanny" and Ned have the gumption to say "enough" and run their own campaign.

Every single thead that even mentions a candidate losing is jumped on and deluged by those who blame machines...even when there were not any. It is tiring. The candidates need to be responsible for their own message.

I agree with the OP.

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it's when lying polls are published that shows races mysteriously being tighter than previously thought possible.

Then it's the little stealing here and there, suppression of voters somewhere, missing ballot boxes, and diebold adding votes to repugs here and there. A couple of point swing, and the lying polls, and people believe that somehow the repug has managed to turn a race to the GOP.

..... cuz its right on the money. The thread replies in the OP's link ..... not so much.

Its a combination that begins with

mudslinging, smearing and negative campaigning,

bogus polling falsely showing leads "evaporating"

then the voter suppression and electronic chicanery for the final coup

Combine it with complete media saturation coordinated every step of the way and goodbye 25 point lead, hello Governor Blackwell

Cleveland Plain Dealer leads the way, they're already lying about the Cuyahoga County election by blaming it on employees, not Diebold.

http://tinyurl.com/emh3j ...no comment necessary...other than Holy Cow!!!

I'd lost track of it.

It starts with felon purges and other hanky-panky with voter lists, interfering with voter registration, throwing out registrations from poor and minority areas. Then comes the intimidation and interference with voting itself. Machine hankypanky comes last, and may or may not be as significant as the other attacks. But since the process is privatized, whothehell knows for sure?

If all our ills can be attributed to Diebold then we don't have to work our asses off organizing, getting out the vote, recruiting members, promoting candidates, etc. Nope, we can sit on our asses in front our computers and whine about the unfairness of it all.

Julie