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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 02:33 PM
Original message
John Kerry: Mistakes and Responsibilities
John Kerry
10.11.2006

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-kerry/mistakes-and-responsibili_b_31482.html">Mistakes and Responsibilities

Four years ago today, the United States Senate voted to give President Bush the authority to use force in Iraq.

There’s nothing – nothing – in my life in public service I regret more, nothing even close. We should all be willing to say: I was wrong, I should not have voted for the Iraq War Resolution. It’s not enough to talk about the incompetence and immorality of this Administration in the conduct of this war. It is not enough to point out that we were grossly misled.

But it is also not enough just to look backwards. The question today is whether leaders will take responsibility for fixing a Katrina foreign policy that kills and maims our soldiers and weakens America in the fight against terror. We must change course in Iraq.

That's why I have proposed a deadline for Iraq and a comprehensive plan to end the civil war. That's why Russ Feingold and I forced a vote on it in the Senate. That's why I keep on making the case wherever I go -- today in Nevada. It's why President Bush decided to single out my plan for another pathetic attack today.

Well, bring it on -- let's have that debate.

My plan is the opposite of the administration's stand-still-and-lose strategy. It's pretty simple: every time President Bush tells the Iraqis we will "stay as long as it takes," he is giving squabbling politicians there an excuse to take as long as they want.

At each step along the way, the Iraqi leaders have responded only to deadlines. So why not a deadline to extricate our troops? Read about my plan at http://blog.johnkerry.com.

We also desperately need something else this administration disdains: diplomacy. Real diplomacy -- a Dayton-like summit of Iraq and the countries bordering it, the Arab League, NATO, and the Permanent Members of the United Nations Security Council. Guess what? That will only happen with a deadline to push and prod Iraqis and their neighbors to the bargaining table. Why would any other nation put itself on the line if the United States was willing to stay forever?

Today of all days, we should be having this debate, openly, honestly, and in a way that honors America's troops and our best traditions. One of the things I feel most personally is that a Congress that shares responsibility for getting us into Iraq needs to take responsibility for getting us out the right way.

The truth is that America is imprisoned in a failed policy. And as in Vietnam, we're being told that admitting mistakes, not the mistakes themselves, will provide our enemies with an intolerable propaganda victory. Well, that too is a lie.

Next time you're in Washington, take a moment to walk down to the Vietnam War Memorial, if you haven't done it.

As you walk down that path into the center of the V and you stand in the V, you can look up one end and you'll see 1960 -- earlier, 1959 -- all the way through parts of 1968, and then the other side of the wall brings us toward the end. And half the names on that wall, half the names -- stand in the center of it and look up at tens of thousands of young Americans -- half the names on that wall were lost after America's leaders knew and later acknowledged our strategy wasn't working. It was immoral then and it is immoral now to be quiet or equivocal in the face of that kind of delusion. Just think about what that Wall might look like for this war.



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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Great article. I wish everyone would take Sen. Kerry's message
to heart.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. K & R. Very poignant, and well said. n/t
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think it is wonderful that he takes the time to communicate to us all
through these posts.
A mostly sad four years, with things just getting worse and worse in Iraq. Sometimes, it is so painful to look back.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. kick!
:kick:
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. A president and a noble statesman are not the same skill set
Woopsies are for plebes like us. The mark of a great leader is not the ability to deliver a great speech so much as the ability to make the correct and best decision more often than a "commoner" given the same information.

I have never gotten over Kerry caving on the vote count, nor over Gore losing a supreme court ruling that said every vote in a democracy should be counted.

We need leaders who lead - so even though I have greatest respect for Kerry as a senator and as a statesman, it disturbs me to think he might consider another run or that these flowery speeches are not so much edification as laying the groundwork.

Yes I'm still bitter.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Who then is perfect enough for you - Gore and Kerry are both very good
As a President, Kerry's decision on Iraq would have been right. It was right to push for inspections and to hold Saddam accountable. Kerry said before the war started that Bush should not go to war. As President he would NOT have gone to war.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. whoa back up right there
That straw man was not invited to this party, but since he's here, nobody is disagreeing with inpections. They turned up nothing. Holding Saddam accountable????

For the inspectors finding nothing? I'm sorry that was a BAD decision, if inspection was the criteria.

We're in an endless nightmare of a war because of it, and anyone who couldn't see this outcome today back then was incompetent to do the job. I don't care if Kerry walks on water, raises the dead and levitates to work, the decision to go to war was boneheaded and unsupportable and every one of us alive today has blood on our hands as a result.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. "the decision to go to war was boneheaded"
The decision wasn't Kerry's!
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. that's a cop out
Kerry had every opportunity to stand up and declaim against it, but he supported it initially, and then said that even knowing again what he knew then he would support it again.

Only on the third try did he back down from that. Well, presidential material HAS TO GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

There were plenty of potential candidates besides Kerry who got it right the first time.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. He never supported this war, that is where you are wrong!
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 12:05 PM by ProSense
He made it clear several times, before and after the vote that the inspections should continue, diplomacy should be exhausted and Bush should not rush to war:

Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi



In the months before Bush launched the illegal invasion:

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war. As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.



Bush lied in order to violate the IWR!
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. Total misinterpretation
The context is at the time of the vote - BEFORE the inspectors found nothing, before the inspectors got Saddam to destroy missiles that were on the borderline of compliant. Accountable does not in any dictionary I know mean go to war. As it was the inspectoirs found NOTHING, therefore the logical assumption is that Saddam WAS in compliance.

Kerry spoke AGAINST going to war in early 2003 before the invasion. Other than Al Gore, there were VERY few major politicians speaking against it. Incidently, I did go to DC in Jan 2003 and NYC in Feb 2003 to protest.

The problem is that you are conflating the IWR and the war. You can find spring 2003 articles that refer to Kerry as anti-war. Remember he called for "Regime change at home" when Bush invaded. Did Kerry become more pro-war in June - July 2003 or did the media simply change their labels? Why would that be?
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. well if the media is the problem
I don't see anyone proposing how Kerry is going to get past that again.

BTW, I appreciate the clarification - I have not personally been following Kerry with any desire to hear more. I understand that what we are spoon fed, through any organization, including the democratic party, is subject to bias either way.

The fact remains for me that in the debates and political strategems I saw employed, Kerry could have been much more effective than he was. I know a candidate faces serial exhaustion and has to rely strongly on the judgement of his lieutenants to face down the next absurdity, but the fact is that unless there is roaring excitement for a candidate in this next election I don't think we're going to win by anything but luck or default, and that's not a real win.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Bitterness is self-defeating.
Liberal thinkers should avoid allowing our emotions to dictate our beliefs. That's what the other side does. Bitterness is not a good emotion to harbor and it won't give you an accurate perception of Gore or Kerry's leadership abilities.

There simply wasn't any way for either Kerry or Gore to have successfully changed the outcome of either election. They could have made noise, but the fact is that VERY FEW voters or other Democrats would have backed them up when push came to shove. It is a fantasy to believe otherwise. Just look what happened over the "torture" bill. We just lost our Bill of Rights and few people even noticed. Where was the outrage over that?

Tilting at windmills is romantic but hardly practical. A REAL LEADER knows that some battles have to be continued another day if a successful outcome is to be had.

John Kerry conceded only the election but never the battle. The same with Gore. They knew they couldn't take the White House from the front door, so each has been working on taking it from a side entrance.

Senator Kerry hit the ground running and has been fighting tooth and nail to take back Congress. THAT is the back door to the White House. It may not be John Kerry who takes the White House in 2008 (he hasn't even decided if he wants to run again), but you can bet your ass he will have helped to lay the groundwork for that takeover by the work he is doing today.

That's not flowery speech. That's elbow grease. That's working the grassroots for Democrats without stop. That's going to Iraq and meeting with foreign leaders. That's speaking out against the failed policies and lies of the Bush Administration. That's John Kerry, and he's MY PRESIDENT!



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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. I appreciate your "passion"
but that seems to be you allowing emotion to dictate your belief. Sorry, it was required that I feed you some poop right back.

I gave perfectly rational reasons for why I don't think he'd make a good president, but you took my sardonic comment to be the basis for my thinking.

There is a time and place for senatorial decorum, and the presidential race is not it. In fact, the office of president is not the place for senatorial majesty, and the ONLY president that's going to take the white house is going to have to go in through the front door.

If we don't field a candidate strong enough to do that and win by a landslide, IF we win it will merely be winning by not losing, and that's not a victory.

We need another Kennedy, not another Kerry.
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_dynamicdems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
56. Kennedy wouldn't win today because the media would disclose his
sexual affairs and he'd go down in flames the way Gary Hart did.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. He's led on more serious issues than any lawmaker of the last 35 years.
Edited on Wed Oct-11-06 09:35 PM by blm
His foresight and instincts led to the uncovering of IranContra, BCCI and CIA drugrunning with most of DC set against him. I suppose those who led AGAINST Kerry's work are considered real leaders, while Kerry was just who he is - an anti-corruption, open government Democratic leader - and there isn't anyone who HAS led that wing of the party more.

Without Kerry's type of leadership, the fascist agenda would have completely taken over by 1990. But how many here stop to even consider that fact?

Some people LEAD for the greater good of the citizens - some lead by "covering up" for others.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. well he's a great senator
not arguing that at all. So is Hillary.

Just not presidential material. I know the attributes I want in a president and I don't see them represented in total anywhere in the field of candidates.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. If you don't see those "atttributes" in the field of candidates,
who do you believe has them and, please, describe what these attributes are. Thanks!
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. ad nauseum somewhere bewteen post 6000 and 9000
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 11:35 AM by sui generis
about 2500 times.

We need someone who can speak clearly, who can plan clearly, answer unequivocably, and make a statement without apologizing for it.

John Kerry had some sucking stances on topics that impact my life - and couldn't seem to take the gloves off in any live debate without apologizing for his hangnails, and then apologizing for apologizing. Focus man!

The closest in demeanor and temperament I could think of would be a Mark Warner or a Feingold, or even (other inexperience aside) someone with the clarity of Hackett. As I said these people aren't in the field of candidates, and I'm willing to bet we end up being forcefed the blandest possible candidate yet again. Guess what, politics is about politics. It's not about who can play nicest, or who can turn the floweriest phrase, or any of that stuff.

If we want a landslide we need to address the American majority, of decent people who really do give a damn about social security, medicare, our national health and security and wellbeing and having a fair living wage (clearly not talking about corporations and megachurches here) and being able to heat and cool our homes and get to work after the oil has run out, about being respected again in global affairs and raising our kids in a safer, saner world. That MAJORITY of Americans is who this candidate needs to speak to and do so convincingly, without pandering, and without apologizing.

Kerry was pandering when he said he didn't support gay marriage and that marriage was a states right issue. He had determined he'd make more vacillating democrats happier with that answer than piss off gays, so the net means would support the end. Marriage is not the right of any state. It is the right of individuals. How hard is that to get through anyone's skulls? When a candidate speaks what's right, regardless of how it polls, he's being a leader, and not a poll monkey or a moldy politician.

I like Kerry overall, but not for president. He still hasn't demonstrated the chops I want to see, and he certainly hasn't demonstrated any ability to galvanize people in any of the controversial issues on the congressional plate in a way that makes me consider him a supportable candidate.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. First of all,
Kerry crushed Bush in the debates!

Mark Warner or a Feingold? The two are as opposite as night and day! Feingold is one of the most progressive Democrats, not sure what Warner is, but moot now since he isn't running.

Kerry has been one of the strongest advocates on all those issues, and has been consistent on all of them.

His postion on gay marriage has always been the same, he was one of only a handful of Senators that voted against the DOMA in 1996. No pandering there!

As far as galvanizing people, he's demostrated more leadership on improtant issues than anyone: here, here, here, here, and here.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. oh bullshit
I actually know what I'm talking about or I wouldn't be typing here.

Kerry supported non-discrimination and civil unions. He voted against DOMA because he thought it was overkill and that states rights had the matter in hand, without giving a personal opinion on it. He also said he was against gay marriage and for civil unions, quite clearly.

Finally, he said when pressed that he would not vote for the FMA if it came up because DOMA already existed.

You can't have it both ways. He's quite clear - separate but sorta equal, not equal.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. What the hell are you talking about? His position never changed!
He supports civil unions!
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. FUCK civil unions
I hope that's clear enough. Separate but not equal enough isn't good enough.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Your position is quite disingenous!
You tossed up Mark Warner, who oppose gay marriage and has opposed civil unions, as a candidate you could support. But you claim disdain for Kerry's position, which is to support civil unions and leave it to states to make the determination about gay marriage.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. I thought Mark Warner supported gay marriage
anyway, enough said - if true then it's clear that I have Warner confused with someone else, rather than being "quite disingenuous" (you mean stupid, say it) but I tire of the apologists for Kerry, who I am starting to find both tiresome and unoriginal in the straw man category.

I don't care who the "right" candidate is by name. I just want him to be a winner and support ALL of his base, and to do so in a way that is memorable and popular and dead earnest serious. What's wrong with that? I think Kerry is too much of a political animal, still, today, to take the gloves off and take down the republicans the way they need to be taken down.

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. Is a name worth not having what you want for a generation?
Kerry was for Civil Unions that conveyed all the same rights as marriage. This is acceptable to FAR more people than gay marriage. (The last poll I saw had it above 50% with gay marriage way below) This is not saying that you pick the more popular - it is saying there's a chance for one and the other is unlikely for a long time.

It would be equal - except for a word......which no one could stop you from using.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. this is where you aren't a strong enough student
of the issue.

In California they're saying that the marriage statute cannot be challenged because there is already an "equal" institution in the form of registered domestic partnerships.

Small steps doesn't get you very far. Basically, we can't challenge white folks sitting in the front of the bus because the back of the bus has seats too.

Small steps are for small minds.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. That's a revisionist look at the debates. Kerry was clear - and those who
reread or rewatch the debates are acknowledging it.

It is THEY who weren't listening as attentively as they may have believed. And the spin put on the debates by corpmedia was geared to minimize the startling contrast between Bush and Kerry.

Or....Maybe it comes from trying to watch a debate and post at internet forums like this one. That could be a drawback. I have been guilty of that at times.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. not talking about the debates
or disagreeing that Kerry won.

I hate his style. If it doesn't change, we can expect the outcome, no matter how much we complain about being "victims" of the media.

What's he going to do differently? If it's more of the same, we'll just end up with more of the same.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Why? Do you think postKatrina, voters WANT someone talking slogans and
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 12:34 PM by blm
jingoism as if they were raised in tavern?

I think you underestimate the growing seriousness of the American electorate. Of course a slightly more simplified style could help, but not too much. Just a tweak of a good copy editor should reach that goal, and it looks like he has already been doing that.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. stop putting words in my mouth
a populist is not a sloganeering simpleton.

Really, I've had enough. You're not convincing me to change my mind and I'm certain it's mutual. I've explained myself and why people who think like I do wouldn't vote for Kerry. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but it's reality.

Please refrain from any other sly snubs or I WILL take the gloves off.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. I was referring to the so-called "success" of Bush and he fits that bill
as written.

The point was that people are tired of it, and what you viewed as a detriment in 2004, is likely an asset for 2008.

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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. still, what you call "plain spoken" in bush in 2004
anyone with a brain would call stupid in 2008.

Being truly plain spoken doesn't mean being stupid, though. I mean we need a candidate who really can answer a yes/no question with a yes or a no. Someone who can ask a real yes/no question and demand a yes or a no. Someone who can dominate a debate and furthermore someone who doesn't feel compelled to smile when a smile isn't called for or play personal space invaders when it just looks awkward and staged.

I don't like it when ANY speaker apologizes for what they're about to say and then says it. Either say it or don't, but don't apologize for it. It looks passive aggressive and petty.

BLM I want the right candidate as much as you do. I am certainly not a yahoo, nor would I (or most Americans) support a yahoo for that office. We're not talking about yahoos. But the opposite, a candidate who glories in the golden peal of sonorous didactic verbosity is quite frankly a bore to the average man of average literacy and intelligence.

If Kerry can do a sea change to his style without losing core values or substance, we may have a different outcome, and people like me may sit up and take notice. That's all I'm arguing for.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Well, then we will see. As I said, he has already tweaked himself in that
Edited on Thu Oct-12-06 12:58 PM by blm
regard and his speeches over the past year have been increasingly dynamic, even to those who have criticized his style in the past. For me, heck I enjoyed Kerry's, and even Gore's policy speeches, but that's us wonk-types for you.

But, we will see. The series of debates will tell us plenty about all of them.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. no mistake
I LOVED their policy speeches, but I have a brain. But as to my coworkers and joe undecided on the street who need their candidate (and decision criteria) info fed in 30 second soundbites, the single overriding criticisms I heard of both the debates and the speeches was not any catch phrase or idea or memorable take-away, but that it went on and on and on.

How do we address that? Dictionaries excite me, so my personal tastes are not a good barometer. But my eyes and ears tell me that no matter what I think of the intellect of a candidate, the one that's going to win is going to have to have more than one ace in his hand, and preferably all of them.

As much as all of us hate to admit it, in addition to razor sharp wits, real charisma and charm and style and panache are VITAL to a successful candidate, and it has to be real, not coached and not contrived. I have not seen that so far in Kerry which is why I'm coming across as unhappy with him.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Here's where we differ - I know Kerry's persona from the last 35 years and
up until 2001, he was considered charismatic and compelling when he spoke, and the Nixon tapes even discuss the problem they are having due to his formidable talent in that regard.

Alot of analysts expected Kerry to be Gore's running mate because he would add that talent to the ticket. At some point in early 2001, the corpmedia started describing Kerry differently, broadcast media became even more combative and sloganistic, and logic got turned on its head.

I've always felt it was a deliberate march towards dumbing down the electorate that started in the 90s.

BTW - I used to read the dictionary, too. My mother was a fundie who didn't like books, so the dictionary and encyclopedias were my staple diet. I took many a beating when I was caught reading books I got from the bookmobile at school.

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. Paul Hackett
who described himself on Air America as a "Goldwater Democrat"? What other than call Bush a chicken hawk did he do?

Kerry REJECTED Clinton's advise to endorse all the gay bashing bills. Kerry supported civil unions with all the rights accorded marriage. This is marriage without the word. Kerry was one of the first to speak of gay rights on the floor of the Senate

Think about it. What would prevent a gay couple from sending out wedding invitations, putting their photos in a wedding album, saying they were engaged to be married, or later saying they are married. At the risk of sounding like I am trivializing it, did you ever "Zerox" something on a different manufactor's copy machine. If ALL the rights came with civil unions, would it matter that the document said "CIVIL UNION" where mine says "MARRIAGE"? Is that difference worth waiting possibly another generation?

.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. what's wrong with "the word"?
if it's just a word, why is it we have to swallow the word.

It is most certainly not all the rights if the federal government doesn't recognize it.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. That he believes more in open government than any other and is the only
one who has proved his commitment to it, is my number one requirement. His longtime advocacy for public financing of campaigns to take the corporate money out of politics is a major factor, as well.

That he is an honest, civil, articluate person who can also display the skills needed for a commander-in-chief, that's a very good bonus.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Arguments like this are why I stopped paying attention in Mass
It seems that there is an absolutist movement in which only one issue means anything and either you are with it or not. I said screw that and screw the people who are single-issue folks. I refuse to give them any money any more. I quit on them. They can't find common ground on any other issue. It's not worth your time.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. I got you in one
Not a single issue "folk", but we're not giving money to stupid candidates either. Or their supporters.

Civil rights are not an "issue" by the way. Don't confuse civil rights with whether or not to raise the fucking minimum wage by a nickel.

Minimum wages are "an issue".
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Civil Rights, equality, fairness are issues!
Some people support affirmative action and some people don't. Gay marriage is an issue. These are all issues, and there are still people who want to debate them.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. oy
holds head.

There is a reason we call these things "threads", relative to context.

Don't call me a single issue voter because I won't support a candidate who doesn't support equal rights for all Americans. That's not an issue, that's a value.

However, if you, or other recent posters want to bash me as a "single issue" voter, then we need to adjourn this thread and take it somewhere less public for your sake. It is an important consideration in my vote, and someone who vacillates on it or says the wrong thing will DEFINITELY not get my support, because it means they're a fucking idiot, not because I'm a "single issue" voter.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. And the reason we lose is because
people will not talk to their friends and neighbors and talk about what their issues are and try and connect across the board. Like it or not in order to achieve a lasting and legal definition of equal marriage we need to draw in more voters, not less. Framing this as a one-issue thing turns people off and makes it less likely that candidates who support this can get elected.

Successful coalitions have always matched disparate groups over a horse-trading of issues. When the coalitions fall apart, so does the political power that goes with it.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. it's easy.
The right candidate has to say "I support equal rights for all Americans in all forms, no exceptions."

how hard is that? No coalition required. Then we move on to political and administrative issues and we're all happy.

And the ones that aren't happy with a statement like that are not going to be the gay boys and girls I promise.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. The "right candidate" doesn't operate in a vacuum!
Congress is not a one-person institution. Coalition still required.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Because people will come out and vote against you
based on religious and personal reasons. They have to be coaxed into coming in.

How have the numbers been working out for you in those last few elections?
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. glove, meet floor
Yes, how HAVE those numbers been working out for you?

You did such a bang up job of getting us to almost win by not losing with that dumbfuck strategy that we got Bush for FOUR MORE YEARS.

Thank you very much, but you're fired from the campaign. With strategists like you, who needs republicans.

the point you don't get, and people like you, is that if as a party we agreed that civil rights have one standard for everyone, then this wouldn't be a wedge issue. It's not "their" weakness, it's our weakness.

As a party, we don't agree on it, yet you arrogantly think we should condone that? Sorry. Civil rights are self evident, and if you want to trade horses, give up your own damn marriage.

We're not.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Only 1 reason Bush is in office - DNC didn't secure the election process
for the four years they were charged to do so. Securing the vote count can only be accomplished in the years BEFORE the election where the office of Voter Integrity was charged with countering the vote suppression efforts the RNC would spend their four years mastering.
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. absolute agreement
I hate saying that we were the victim of something we had a chance to manage when we didn't manage it.

I was here in Texas canvassing the elections commission and board members with snail mail, phone calls, email and a personal visit and asking for third party review of their software/hardware review and readiness criteria and was told not to worry my pretty little head about it, that it was for the "professionals" to handle.

I guess we just wouldn't understand how those series of tubes are strung together underneath the internets . . . .

Well I expected that from the republican "bi-partisan" commission here (same board members who didn't think anything at all odd about 100,000 more votes for governor to beat Ann Richards than there were for senate in the same year), but what I didn't expect was the heave-ho-hum from our own state party.

Angry rhetoric aside (and TayTay I know we're on the same side too), it really boils down to stopping the predators. It's not THAT they exist or that they cheat - it's a given fact of their nature, but WHAT we do about it is what counts.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. GREAT FRAME you just made - the vote predators.
.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
54. Consider what John Conyers says about John Kerry
"Fighting for Every Voter"

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me. As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes...

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me.

As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes. After the election, whether won or lost, many candidates leave the irregularities of the election behind. But we owe the voters more than that. When voters are disenfrachised, we owe it to them to seek justice and expose the truth.

That is why I have been so proud of the Kerry-Edwards campaign's ongoing involvement in the investigation and litigation of what went wrong in Ohio. I wrote to the candidates recently to ask that they continue to be involved in this important endeavor.

This is not about the past. It is about figuring out what went wrong and why -- and then getting the next election right, not for the Democratic Party, but for all of the voters.

- John Conyers

http://www.conyersblog.us/archives/00000213.htm
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demdiva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R
I can't believe it was four years ago today!
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Unbowed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. He's right.
We have to get the troops out of there. They are being slaughtered for Chimpy's vanity.

Most of Congress turned their back on the troops when they had a chance earlier this year. Maybe after the midterm election there will suddenly be an epidemic of Congressional courage.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-11-06 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
11. I just reread the whole thing, It is so heartfelt and powerful. He needs
to continue talking out about the points he makes in this post. It is so important to tell the public the truth and call out Bush's lies. Things won't change if people continue to receive nothing by lies and spin.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-12-06 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
41. i LIKE that kerry. he is da man. kickin more ass n/t
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