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The tide really is turning in England.

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back2basics909 Donating Member (438 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 09:44 AM
Original message
The tide really is turning in England.
This is the Times a conservative paper.


HARK — CAN YOU hear it? Borne on the wind, can you hear the sounds of construction — of hammers hammering and woodsaws sawing? And do you detect a note of panic? I do. The good ship Neocon is going down. She has struck the Iraqi rocks, the engine room is awash, and on the deck in anxious pursuit of something to float them away is a curious assembly.

<snip>

Our British neocons have invested heavily in this ill-fated craft, and the wreck is total. How shall they be saved? Never fear. They’ve been working on the elements of a rescue plan. By Christmas all will be singing from the same sheet. All together, now, warrior-columnists and soon-to-be-former Cabinet ministers: one, two three . . .

“The principle was good but the Americans screwed up the execution.”

Oh diddums, guys. Damned awful luck. You had this fantastic plan for invading a foreign country and harnessing a grateful populace behind your ideas for rebuilding an Arab nation along better lines — and then along come the Americans and make a mess of it. Now why in Heaven’s name would they do a thing that? Vandals



Anyway, the idea that you can simply decapitate a regime like his is dubious — as if there had been a Whitehall-style mandarinate there, with a cadre of Sir Humphreys in a Baghdad club, awaiting a memo that a new government had taken over. But the coiled spring driving the clockwork of both the civil and the military parts of Baathist administration was terror and brutality from top to bottom. At the apex was one monstrous dictator. Remove him and all would have fallen into chaos and corruption. An occupying power that tried to slip its bottom smoothly into the driver’s seat while leaving the vehicle (the existing police, army and Civil Service) intact would have found the machine impossible to drive. And today everyone would be grandly pronouncing that of course our mistake was not to have removed at once Saddam’s bloodstained, corrupt and hated state machine.

The former hawks of press and politics now scramble for the status of visionaries let down by functionaries. This is a lifeboat that will not float. Let these visionaries understand that occupation is always brutal and usually resisted; that occupying armies are always tactless, sometimes abusive and usually boneheaded; that in the argument between hands-on and hands-off you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t; and that the first, original and central cause of the Iraq fiasco was not the bad manners of this or that poor, half-educated squaddie from Missouri, nor the finer points of this or that State Department doctrine of neocolonial administration.

The reason for failure was not the post-invasion strategy. It was the strategy of invasion. Blame the vision, not the execution.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,6-2414249,00.html
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Great essay! COuld be speaking for America.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
2. Can you say Downing Street Memo/minutes? They had no
vision or strategy for post-invasion. And it's biting them in the ass now, to the death and detriment of 100's of thousands who have lost their lives.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. So the Tories are back - oh great - - not :-(
:-(
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Tories can't get back till there's a general election...
and that is unlikely to happen for another 3 years, by which time the Labour Party should be under new leadership. I still think that the Tories will quite likely lose in 2009. I also think that whichever party wins will have only a small majority, which may be a good thing in many ways. Hard to predict that far in advance, however.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Thanks - that lifts the spirits a bit :-)
:-)
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emald Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
4. how can any "war" based on lies become anything but a disaster?
GWBushit lied, with malice aforethought, to take our great nations into another country that was no threat. This action has ripped our countries apart creating great angst. Surely those who lied and conspired to wrongly use the resources of the nation to their own ends should be in prison, if not hung. Iraq is a mess, a mess laid directly at the feet of GWB and TB.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. The principle was never good.
This outcome was inevitable and completely predictable (WE TOLD YOU SO) from the second of invasion.

For years, these fools will be telling themselves if we'd done this, if we'd done that, if they'd done this..........nuh uh. It was never going to be any other way once Saddam was removed. NO MATTER WHAT.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
6. Great piece. And Britain, of all countries, should have known much better,
having been down the imperialist occupation road many times, including in Iraq.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Lots of British people did know better or at any rate didn't want to
Edited on Sat Oct-21-06 10:34 AM by LeftishBrit
follow Bush into Iraq

Unfortunately, Tony is indeed in many ways an old-fashioned imperialist without an Empire, and insisted on getting involved with Bush's Empire, and dragging us into, despite much opposition (over 70% against the war at all times), and big demonstrations. He was re-elected because the Tories under Michael Howard's leadership were even worse, not because people respected or agreed with him.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Do you think a Tory MP would have done the same as Blair? Curious.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Blair IS a Tory PM, if you ask me!
Whether an official Tory would have done the same: quite likely, but not necessarily. If a Thatcher clone, yes. If a more pragmatic politician, they'd have had to balance greater pressures from their own party with a greater risk of defeat at the polls if they disregarded the people's wishes, given that they would have had a more left-wing opposition.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
7. He is absolutely right here!
Interestingly, Matthew Parris used to be a Tory MP, but was something of a maverick and left politics for journalism - where he could speak his mind - some time ago. Though I don't agree with him on everything, he often makes a lot of sense.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
12. Instead of blaming it on "the Americans", I wish they would be more
specific: The blame should be put squarely on the neocons. First they stole the WH, then they lined up their ducks in the media for support (propaganda), then they drove our country & its passenger (Blair) off the cliff.

Please don't blame "the Americans"!
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porkrind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-21-06 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. Not a failure by their reasoning...
They got exactly what they wanted: perpetual control of Iraq's oil and permanent military bases under cover of civil unrest.

This was the hiest of the largest wealth prize in history by oil companies and contractors. TRILLIONS of dollars. This was planned out, and they counted on the war as a diversion.
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