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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 12:22 AM
Original message
Wow! This is dishonest!
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 01:06 AM by ProSense
Clark published an op-ed that called for a 'different kind of war' which would be fought more by police, FBI, INTERPOL and CIA and world-wide counterparts all co-operating on a grand scale never seen before. (I am paraphrasing here) Most of which would be fought behind the scenes, maybe using 'special forces' but military and traditional warfare as a last resort.

That was September 15 2001. He knew what to do right away.

I am convinced that had he been in command at that time, the terrorist threat would have already been diffused for the most part, by now.

We have seen in the past several years that the most successful efforts to round up terrorists has been completed using the above strategy which Clark had in the papers THREE DAYS afterwards.

And we have also seen the results of using traditional warfare. Disastrous.

After three solid years of Clark watching, I am convinced that he has what it takes to grasp complex issues rapidly and disseminate them into applicable solutions just as fast. That is the type of person who needs to be running the USA.

Everyone else seems more pre-occupied with coming up with a position. Well, by the time someone like Hillary or Edwards has found their 'position' and taken the stance calculated to gain approval, the shit has already hit the fan.

America needs leadership, not little girls and boys still seeking parental approval before they decide.(If you can even call 'positioning' deciding - I think 'positioners' are that way because they can't decide.

Want proof that I am right? Well, I have watched on countless occasions when Edwards or Kerry took the words right out of Clark's mouth AFTER they saw it meet with enthusiastic approval. That is leadership. When your ideas get adopted by your opponents. (Well, it is also plagiarism but that's another post)

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/11/25/12733/213/120#c120


Kerry plagerized Clark?

Kos thread

On edit: Kerry, because of his BCCI case, was actually the person who defined the new war:

Kerry came to his worldview over the course of a Senate career that has been, by any legislative standard, a quiet affair. Beginning in the late 80's, Kerry's Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics and International Operations investigated and exposed connections between Latin American drug dealers and BCCI, the international bank that was helping to launder drug money. That led to more investigations of arms dealers, money laundering and terrorist financing.

Kerry turned his work on the committee into a book on global crime, titled ''The New War,'' published in 1997. He readily admitted to me that the book ''wasn't exclusively on Al Qaeda''; in fact, it barely mentioned the rise of Islamic extremism. But when I spoke to Kerry in August, he said that many of the interdiction tactics that cripple drug lords, including governments working jointly to share intelligence, patrol borders and force banks to identify suspicious customers, can also be some of the most useful tools in the war on terror.

''Of all the records in the Senate, if you don't mind my saying, I think I was ahead of the curve on this entire dark side of globalization,'' he said. ''I think that the Senate committee report on contras, narcotics and drugs, et cetera, is a seminal report. People have based research papers on it. People have based documents on it, movies on it. I think it was a significant piece of work.''

More senior members of the foreign-relations committee, like Joe Biden and Richard Lugar, were far more visible and vocal on the emerging threat of Islamic terrorism. But through his BCCI investigation, Kerry did discover that a wide array of international criminals -- Latin American drug lords, Palestinian terrorists, arms dealers -- had one thing in common: they were able to move money around through the same illicit channels. And he worked hard, and with little credit, to shut those channels down.

In 1988, Kerry successfully proposed an amendment that forced the Treasury Department to negotiate so-called Kerry Agreements with foreign countries. Under these agreements, foreign governments had to promise to keep a close watch on their banks for potential money laundering or they risked losing their access to U.S. markets. Other measures Kerry tried to pass throughout the 90's, virtually all of them blocked by Republican senators on the banking committee, would end up, in the wake of 9/11, in the USA Patriot Act; among other things, these measures subject banks to fines or loss of license if they don't take steps to verify the identities of their customers and to avoid being used for money laundering.

Through his immersion in the global underground, Kerry made connections among disparate criminal and terrorist groups that few other senators interested in foreign policy were making in the 90's. Richard A. Clarke, who coordinated security and counterterrorism policy for George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, credits Kerry with having seen beyond the national-security tableau on which most of his colleagues were focused. ''He was getting it at the same time that people like Tony Lake were getting it, in the '93 -'94 time frame,'' Clarke says, referring to Anthony Lake, Clinton's national security adviser. ''And the 'it' here was that there was a new nonstate-actor threat, and that nonstate-actor threat was a blended threat that didn't fit neatly into the box of organized criminal, or neatly into the box of terrorism. What you found were groups that were all of the above.''

In other words, Kerry was among the first policy makers in Washington to begin mapping out a strategy to combat an entirely new kind of enemy. Americans were conditioned, by two world wars and a long standoff with a rival superpower, to see foreign policy as a mix of cooperation and tension between civilized states. Kerry came to believe, however, that Americans were in greater danger from the more shadowy groups he had been investigating -- nonstate actors, armed with cellphones and laptops -- who might detonate suitcase bombs or release lethal chemicals into the subway just to make a point. They lived in remote regions and exploited weak governments. Their goal wasn't to govern states but to destabilize them.

link





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NV1962 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. Awww c'mon... Kerry was complimenting Clark
You know what they say about imitation, flattery and so on.

More seriously: I've seen darn few campaign sites as substantial and issue-oriented as Clark's.

Having said that: people elect a President they like and trust.

That is his true asset: the minute you look into his eyes, he commands the instant trust you give to an honest, principled guy.

Scr*w issues, and scr*w issue jockeys: they're just in it for the amusement of the blogosphere.

The rest needs a leader they could invite to their barbecue.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Plagiarism is a pretty harsh term.
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 01:16 AM by AtomicKitten
I think this requires further scrutiny before passing judgment.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 12:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. Uh...shouldn't you discuss this with the poster over at DailyKos?
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 12:54 AM by Clarkie1
It's a very informative thread on Clark's political views, irregardless of your opinion of this one post of many.

Have you nothing better to do than cut and paste snippets of comments from other blogs here that you think will advance your cause to tear down Clark and elevate Kerry?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Sorry accusing Kerry of plagiarism is foul! n/t
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 01:17 AM by ProSense
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. this was posted on Kos
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 01:21 AM by AtomicKitten
Why are you blowing a head gasket here?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. So did Clark accuse Kerry of Plagiarism, or did a KOS poster
do this? Maybe, I'm confused.

I know a few days ago, you did something similar....took a posters words, attributed them to Wes Clark, and then posted all over the boards that Clark had said what the poster had said.

Is this deja vu or something totally different? :shrug:

But thanks for pointing me to a Clark thread on Kos. That part is very much appreciated.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. What does the OP say?
You can read! Or are you pulling the old bait and switch again? :shrug:
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. What is the purpose of this thread, to attack a poster on Kos?
I don't get it. Well, actually I do get it, and I think what you are doing stinks.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Here:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Looks like a KOS poster is saying something about it.....
Not Clark nor Kerry.

So how does this merit an OP on DU again?
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. I saw that thread yesterday....
I learned nothing about Clark, other than if you disagree with the diarist you get a troll rating, and if you swoon, you get dozens of rec's.

Clark deserves better than that.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Oh c'mon catch
You know that's not true. LOTS of disagreement there that isn't troll-rated. And I got troll-rated for calling one of those disagreements not credible. So give me a break, ok?
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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. This comment got 22 votes ?
Want proof that I am right? Well, I have watched on countless occasions when Edwards or Kerry took the words right out of Clark's mouth AFTER they saw it meet with enthusiastic approval. That is leadership. When your ideas get adopted by your opponents. (Well, it is also plagiarism but that's another post)


PROOF that s/he's RIGHT? You c'mon Jai, what proof? Plagarism is a serious charge, but all I know from that is 22 people agreed with the comment that "Clark's a leader because Kerry and Edwards stole his ideas". Riiight.

Like I said, that diary was not helpful to a person wanting to learn more about General Clark. His supporters should be putting up Citizen Journalsim and Vlogs, not a series of copy and pastes of his 2004 issues page.

I stand by what I said, he deserves better from his supporters.
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. What's that have to do with you claim above?
You said, and I quote, "if you disagree with the diarist you get a troll rating, and if you swoon, you get dozens of rec's."

22 recs on the plagerism charge has NADA to do with whether anyone who disagreed got a troll rating. It really has nothing to do with dozens of recs either, since it was hardly a matter of "swooning." So let's not change horses in midstream, ok? You wanna talk about plagerism, fine, but that's NOT what you were whining about above, and not what I was responding to.

By the way, most of those 22 recs came AFTER the next guy/gal protested the four or five recs that were there. So it was really more of a matter of cussedness, maybe, or just the typical Democratic tendancy to not let anyone tell us what we can and cannot do. Fact is, as was said over there, Kerry and Edwards did borrow heavily from Clark, and never really gave him any small part of the credit they owed him. That's politics, I guess, but it's still pretty shabby.
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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
12. Someone at kos has an opinion?
That is shocking, isn't it? I fail to see where that poster said the policing terrorism issue in particular was plagiarized. That comment was gratuitous without specific examples, but it also mentioned Edwards. The Kerry-Edwards campaign did adopt ideas from other primary opponents, but I'm sure that is common since that is part of the process. They are all Democrats. I witnessed Clark throw his full support to Kerry and I'm sure he is not making the charge. Is this really worth a post here? Your time might be better spent writing LTTEs to newspapers throughout the nation to repair the damage they have done to Kerry with their false reports on the botched joke. That is where the serious damage to Kerry's '08 prospects is taking place.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Accusing someone of plagiarism is "gratuitous"?
I write enough letters! Thanks for your concern!
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dogman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. One opinion expressed in over 330 posts is a WOW?
gratuitous |grəˈt(y)oōitəs| adjective/ uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted
It is gratuitous because it is unsubstantiated and of little notice. But if you feel the need to spread it to other forums, go for it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. What difference does the number of posts make?
It's an accusation of plagiarism!
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wiley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Biden/Clark or Biden/Kerry?
There are places you can get help. Please do so.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I think you should take your own advice! n/t
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. By a poster at KOS. Really, there's got to be more to post about
Edited on Sun Nov-26-06 03:28 AM by FrenchieCat
than some random person's opinion from another site....even if it is a Clarkie! Jeez, this is really over the top, what you are doing. I realize that Kerry's been maligned badly in the last month or so, and I sympathize, but this is nothing short of ridiculous!

Take two aspirins, will ya? :shrug:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Oh it wasn't so bad!
You should be happy that the clarification was made!
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
20. I'm with that.
I would love, just love to be able to work for an agency that truly convinced me that they were going after the bad guys AND following the rules while at it.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
21. They should start with stopping to use intel agencies to overthrow
and/or otherwise subvert democratically elected governments that "do not have US interests at heart".

If we'd have started not doing that from the beginning, there'd have been no Saddam in Iraq, there'd be 'liberal democracy' in Iran, etc, etc, etc. History, especially the past 50 years or so, would be completely different than it is.


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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
22. It would be incorrect to assume the world has never fought terrorists before...
And that we even needed to have this conversation. We've had terrorists operating in the world for most all of my 40-something years. The greatest successes have been when it's been fought in the shadows and on the back streets of the world, through a combination of intelligence gathering, infiltration, and good old fashioned police investigation. It's the advent of the dreadful *Bush era that has brought the idea that we must use conventional war to 'get' the terrorists, rather than use tactics that actually work. The main reason this crowd of idiots got away with accusing Clinton of not doing anything to stop terrorists is because he wasn't out there sending in armies and holding press conferences to prove how tough he was - he was using the methods that had proven themselves.

This strategy can't be credited to Clark, Kerry or any of the current politicians. If we want to give credit where credit is due, we need to find the people who were doing it 30 years ago.


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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
24. This was exactly the manner in which the Clinton Administration fought Terror
They were successful. Of course no one can eliminate terror but you can react to it in a smarter way and that does not include invading a country that had no involvement and was not an imminent threat to the USA..
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. That's true!
This appraoch is not new. Neither Clark nor Kerry "invented" it. The "International Law Enforcement" approach is merely the best way to fight terrorism. Israel has been using it since Munich.
International co-operational and coordination is the answer!

Follow the money!
A well funded army of CPAs could eliminate most International Terrorism.
The REAL problem is that the majority of Global Corporations benefit from the choas of Terrorism....keeps OIL prices HIGH, and the ARMS industries and their political puppets rake in BILLIONS!
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
26. No, this was standard policy before Republican whackos took over. (nt)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-26-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. The reason it's called the new war
is because it employed a new strategy:

Kerry had seen money laundering first-hand as an assistant district attorney prosecuting drug lords outside Boston in the late 1970s. In the Senate he became extensively involved in the mid-1980s investigation into money laundering by the notorious Bank of Credit and Commerce International (BCCI).

It was during the investigations into BCCI and its ties to Panamanian ruler Manuel Noriega that Kerry’s interest was solidified. In 1988, he authored the first U.S. law, called the Kerry Amendment, to impose sanctions on countries that do not cooperate with U.S anti-money laundering (AML) efforts.

more...



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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-27-06 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. Kerry don't need to take anyone elses ideas.
When he uses a point or a suggestion from someone else he credits that person.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-28-06 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
32. I want a president who can judge and implement the best ideas; I don't care who thinks 'em up first.
No one is going to have all the right answers all the time. Leadership, as Cheney and Rummy never learned to appreciate, is a collaborative process. It's not about barking orders or having the quickest and more ready analysis. It's about putting the best answers thru a critical process -- an idea foreign to the Bushites.

This is why I can comfortably vote for whoever the Democrats nominate. We tend to find leaders who fit into the George Washington mold, while Republicans are always looking for the best Napolean to hang their laurel wreaths on.
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