A word about illegal Mexican "immigration"

--- Some democratic legislators, perhaps motivated by electoral possibilities, like to lose themselves in the semantics of "comprehensive reform," and are ambiguous about the matter. I'm not.

--- Anyone who has entered the country illegally should be found and removed. All 12 million of them. That is the law and, furthermore, it is what the majority of Americans want. The southern border should be sealed,... period. The Bush administration is decidedly malfeasant in this regard.

--- Democrats (or anyone else) finding some basis for arguing this point can take a flying leap. Will the 12 million illegals starve if they are sent back to Mexico? Tough shit. Does the Catholic church have some altruistic edge on the majority of Americans who simply want their laws enforced? Tough shit, again. I'd throw the Catholic church OUT of America before I'd let 12 million illegal Mexican party-crashers stay. And Jesus Christ, I am never more enraged than when confronted with the notion that these illegals may be receiving taxpayer-funded benefits. And I have seen firsthand the colossal extent of property damage being inflicted here by having as many as 16 illegals occupying one two-bedroom apartment,.....in fact, I've seen that very situation no less than a hundred times. This is not immigration,... it is infestation.

--- It is inarguable that the goddamned corporatist Bush republicans (and their patron masters) want the illegals for their cheap labor, and to drive down the American standard of living into a feudal, third-world state. Those with sympathetic, humanitarian reasons for their ambiguity on the issue are faced with the democratic, majority-will reality that most Americans do not agree with you. If you don't like democracy, just say so.

and the reason that vote shifted more Democratic was because the Republican Party managed to get itself identified as the party of hispanic hatred.

"Reed sees a backlash among Hispanics to GOP actions on immigration, including legislation Bush signed two weeks before the election to build a 700-mile fence along the U.S.-Mexican border."

Keep pushing the xenophobia and maybe we can shed the hispanic voters we just got back.

--- Illegal means illegal. Against the law. Opposed to the wishes of the people. If your only principle here is political expediency, then I am disappointed. There are larger issues at stake than simply winning elections,... particularly when your election-winning strategy pays into the corporate plan for the "third-worldization" of the US. I know it's a tough call, and a hard choice to make,..... but the principle has to take precedence over the expedient.

admit that you don't like them.

But the point is that staking out some extreme position on this issue is politically stupid.

in the standard of living. Ask yourself why you are on the same side as GWB.

--- In fact, you're probably right about that. I am of Chipewa Indian lineage,... What I do or don't like is of a far more pragmatic nature than the racist inference you are trying to draw. I have had far more dealings and interactions with illegal hispanic "immigrants" than you can even imagine. Why? Because I am in the engineering and construction field. Hell, I even speak fluent Spanish, Ok? Quite a few of my favorite sub-contractors are, in fact, of hispanic origin. But LEGAL origin. To put it simply, "legal immigration" means that the American people actually have some control over what happens to their country. (More than my ancestors had, eh?) I do not feel that is an unrealistic expectation of a national population in a democratic country. This country and its resources can only support so many people. If you put 25 people in a lifeboat whose maximum capacity is 20 people, then you will likely have 25 drownings instead of 5. If that is a tough call for you, then you are not cut out for the decision-making business. If you want to change or repeal certain immigration laws, then by all means do so. Good luck with it. But until that time, immigration laws are every bit as real as tax law, homicide law, etc. I'd like to ignore a few laws, myself,... but if I do, I have to face the consequences. Are illegals somehow above the law? Preferentially ignoring certain laws is what Bush did, right? Do you wish to continue the practice?

centuries ago. And the infestation of European descendants just ain't going away, it would appear.

But your 'illegal' doesn't smell so sweet.

Infestation, eh?

How about before sending them all back, we repeal all the laws the US has passed in order to exploit 2nd and 3rd world countries and we help them build good economies so the people won't WANT to leave.

And personally, I'd much rather spend my tax money on health care and school for "illegals" than in "illegally" killing other people around the globe, enriching Halliburton, shooting wolves from airplanes, etc., which is what the government uses my money for now.

Or is it just "illegals" you care about?

Didn't take you long to trot out the "with or against us" black and white argument.

I think it's possible to do both. Personally I care about all. Sorry if you are only able to care about some people.

Sorry, but it is. I never said that...so please don't put words in my mouth.

The minute we can house, feed, educate and cure every legal citizen in this country, we can let in as many illegal immigrants as anyone wants. But, every country has a responsibility to its citizens first. And, right now it's far easier for an illegal immigrant to get assistance than a legal immigrant or citizen. That's not right.

it's easier for them to get help than us? Prove that.

And if you're so concerned about them, what are you doing to avoid contributing to the problem? Do you refuse to eat at restaurants that might have illegal workers? Are you sure your lawn guy/pool guy/maid/dry cleaner and every other service provider is legal? Do you refuse to buy cheap goods because they may be made by illegals? I'd really like to know what you're doing about it all.

But I have two friends who work for the government and see it every day. I won't give you their names and phone numbers so you can talk to them yourself (to "prove it") but I hear the stories constantly. I hear it in the news too. Why don't you try coming to Arizona and seeing it firsthand for yourself.

As for your other questions: Yes; I don't have a lawnguy/pool guy/maid, but if I did they'd be legal or out of work; Yes - this goes back to your first question and really covers all your questions: any company that I know is (or that I suspect is) hiring illegal immigrants is one I won't patronize.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder - I come to DU for discussions, not unsubstantiated accusations and arguments only for arguments sake. Good luck with that.

All I accused you of was pulling out the tired black and white arguments, which you did, and it's in black and white above.

I'll take your word on the businesses you patronize, but I don't believe it's easier for illegals to get ANYTHING than citizens, and "I know a guy who knows a guy but I can't tell you" isn't gonna change my mind.

And I'd like to know how you suspect any business has illegals - is it by the color of their skin?

I'll try to avoid that myself, and just stick to questions.

Are you so concerened about the people who break other laws such as speeding or stealing office supplies from work or is it just immigration bureaucracy scofflaws who bug you so much?


Do you realize that almost all illegals pay taxes (Swift does not pay workers in cash after all) and are especially propping up Social Security because they pay in full shares regardless of claimed exemptions, but can never claim benefits?

Yea yeah your ancestors did it legally yadda yadda but do you know how hard/impossible it is now to immigrate if you are a semiskilled laborer with no relatives and no spouse-to-be here? It's not like Ellis Island is taking in shiploads for the asking legally any more. I'm an immigrant myself - from a wealthy English-speaking nation, with a postgraduate education and an American wife and it was a pain in the ass for me. José the Spanish-only speaker with no birth certificate and little medical records and a 6th grade schooling ain't getting in legally like I did.

We are of course not a plebiscite democracy as I'm sure you do realize, but surely you can think of instances where the majority of the population have been wrong I trust?

Yes businesses want cheap labor. I for one don't think that's automatically a bad thing. Any idea how many more businesses would have to close down US operations if they could not afford to staff them? Are depressed wages better than no wages? Or do you think the US population will pay ten times as much just for the privilege of buying American made products? Any instances where this has happened? Illegals aren't the only reason here of course, but anyone who thinks businesses would happily pay union scale for all labor if illegals didn't exist, and even more importantly thinks consumers would pay for shirts and carpets and even food at a price commensurate with union scale labor needs to open their eyes a bit.

--- And "flamed" is right,... as you can see. And no, I am not a nutjob xenophobe.

--- But let me address my main response to the main point you raise with your post,... namely the wage-labor prospects afforded by illegals. I fully understand the realities of international competition,..... hell, even the realities of local competition (There's a nasty saying among building contractors these days,.. it says that a successful business can be predicted on the basis of how many Mexicans it employs. Another version simply advises reducing payroll costs by employing as many Mexicans as possible.)

--- But there IS a downside to cheap labor. It places all production decisions and potentials in the hands of uncreative, unconcerned, bottom-line-motivated capitalistic drones. America is not losing out economically because of labor costs. It is because we have lost the innovative edge. For example, we could have had workable syn-fuels 20 years ago,.... except that the energy decisions are essentially being made by oil company executives,... who don't know or care about anything affecting the average American. "Necessity is the mother of invention." Capitalists don't like necessity, if they can avoid it. I don't think the big-money people are necessarily the smart people. I think they are just the most anal-retentive people. In order to return the American labor force to the preeminence it enjoyed in the 50's and 60's, we have to rely on and invest in innovation,.... not production efficiency and cheap labor. By a similar token, I see "out-sourcing" as a signal of American industry giving up in the pursuit of new and better ways of doing things,.... and certainly a disavowal of doing the "right" thing. There is no victory in making the cheapest widget and therefore reaping the greatest profit. Our success of 50 years ago was in being the "best."

They say they want every illegal immigrant thrown out of this country, but they then say that the southern border should be sealed. Not a single word about the illegal Irish. Not a single word about the illegal Canadian. Not a single word about the illegal Italian. Not a single word, even, about the illegal Chinese. It's all about the bad brown people who cook funny and refuse to find a non-existent ESL class.

right on top of racist calls for deporting 12 million undocumented people.

I would sooner give back Texas, California, Arizona, and New Mexico to the country they were stolen from than to start deporting those who have become essential to the American economy.

Now, if you want reform that prevents so many undocumented workers from entering the U.S., then strike where it would be effective: at the causes of the emigration from Mexico. The first step there would be to repeal NAFTA. Of course, that won't happen; and upcoming flooding of the Mexican market with beans from the U.S., under NAFTA provisions, will drive millions of additional Mexicans to enter the U.S., legally or not, mostly not.

"infestation"?

Really?

And the people who don't like the Mexicans can get out.

They can go form their own little white supremacist commune in French Guyana or some place and if the tropical diseases don't get them, their own kool-aid will. Good riddance and tough shit.

--- My original post had nothing whatsoever to do with "white supremacy," nor did I say that I did not "like" Mexicans. That is entirely your inference,.. and a knee-jerk inference, I might add. The American federal government,... you know,.. the one created by, and theoretically operated according to the Constitution,.... has a responsibility to its American citizens,.. a responsibility which it does not have to people of other countries. I have travelled in Mexico, and it is easy to see why some people there want to leave. I sympathize with them,... I really do. But it is their job to fix things at home,...

--- As a 57-yr-old tax-paying citizen, I hardly take your "Go somewhere else so that illegal Mexicans can stay" suggestion seriously. To me, it's just a crude joke. If nothing else, that is the same language I've heard a thousand times from neocon supporters in connection to Bush's nazi tendencies. Good company you've chosen for yourself, eh?

flamebait.

There is more than enough room for disagreement and debate among DUers -- and liberals as a whole -- when it comes to immigration reform. But referring to illegal immigrants as "an infestation" is perhaps not the best starting-off point.