"Mainstream" = white people like and identify with you; "articulate" = you don't sound 'black'

If the vast majority of whites likes you, you are mainstream, even if most blacks don't like you.

If the vast majority of blacks like you, but white folks don't, you aren't mainstream

And even if a whole lot of black folk and a whole lot of white folk like you, unless a MAJORITY of white folk think you're great, you can't be mainstream. You're just "divisive."

If you speak the King's English, but sound "black," you'll never be described as articulate.

I hope this is helpful.

Hear this veiled insult all the time. Drives me nuts.

It is a shame - it shouldn't matter.

Obama is intelligent, formidable debater, and camera friendly (presidential looking) and well liked..... at least that is how an old white guy would describe him if he was a democratic verison of say Mitt Romney or for that matter if he was john edwards.

BUT since Obama is a black chap intelligent becomes the paternal and condescending "bright" his public speaking skills become "articulate" well liked (as you put very well - liked by a majority of whites) becomes mainstream and of course photogenic becomes "clean"

the choice of words were more like the words used on a 1st graders report card - johnny is clean, articulate and bright plays well with others and picks his nose rarely.

This may be more to do with Bidens age than race though - I hear that stuff all the time as a 32 year old (white male) CEO from VP's with kids my age (compliments that read like a kids report card). Obama is right to shrug it off and realize Biden is just old and out of touch . Smile shake your head and move ahead.

And that's what I meant in the other thread when you were asking about my statement regarding Biden's statement.

I meant that it was all latent racism and that's all too common in "mainstream" America.

None of it matters.

I think Biden explained his meaning quite well. Mainstream as in "developed a political career in a typical fashion".

Obama didn't have to crash the gates like Jackson, Sharpton and others who, of necessity, emerged through the politics of protest.

As I said elsewhere, I'm just an average white guy ... but a lot of people have told me I am articulate. Crack that code for me, please. (Oh, but there IS a code ... isn't there? I'm not saying you are wrong about that.)

:banghead:

We argue over the picking of nits, off the cuff word fumbling, and moot points. This is crazy. We're engaged in a disastrous optional war serving only the agenda of war profiteers. We are on the verge on engaging in another word. Our land is being raped, the futures of our children being mortgaged, and the field of medicine has been transformed into a vast profit making engine that exploits the sick and desperate without compassion. Poor people of the south have been sold out in a massive manner. American corporation expect our kids to protect their interests while they ship our jobs over seas. The harder we work the more expendable we become. These things matter and while we argue over the meaning of Biden's clumsy choice of words, the perpetrators make more miles towards their objectives.

I am not and will never be a Biden supporter ... I have serious issues with that feller ... but this shit storm serves only to distract us from the issues that count.

Democrats and liberals will never make any substantial long term progress so long as we allow our hypersensitivities to dominate our discourse.

deeply to me - and since I believe they impact just about every area of our lives, politics, and government, I don't believe they are irrelevant or should be ignored.

but not every clumsy expression translates to racism. If you take a close look at what I wrote and considered for a moment how racism drives or factors into some of those issues ...

Never mind.

On edit

Wow, you are quick to rush to judgment about a person you do not know.

You guys keep thinking and posting and worrying about the things that hurt your feelings. In the meantime, people's lives are being torn apart. You keep tearing at people who try to do some good 'cause they don't speak the way you want them to. Enter paralysis. I have been around the block for a long time, and I saw this sort of thing render the Democratic party and liberal movement weak enough to enable a conservative take over for 16 years. Go for it.

I'm tired of the divisive crap. We don't have time for it. I think we as Democrats need to learn to cut each other a little slack every now and then. You aren't perfect, neither am I. And neither is any of the prospective candidates. We're just human beings, after all.

I don't think he's a racist. But he is obviously insensitive and apparently harbors some antiquated views - much like many Americans.

The problem is that people get so defensive and upset if this is pointed out to them - "How DARE you call me a RACIST!!!!" - that the kind of attitude that Biden displayed (which, in my view can be more harmful than outright racism because while hidden and seemingly innocuous, it can impact all manner of institutions in our society) are rarely addressed.

We all have biases and prejudices, but unless we face them and deal with them, we will never get past them. I, for one, am always appreciative when my prejudices are pointed out to me so that I can work to overcome them. It is unfortunate that so many people think they're being attacked whenever they're called on their biases.

And please get this straight - this isn't about "hurt feelings." It is about an attitude that is still far too pervasive in our society. And it's is about a seasoned politician who insulted a significant portion of the population. To his credit, Biden seems to recognize what he did and why it's a problem and has tried to make amends - and I think most people, including those whom he directly insulted, have accepted his apology. The problem is that so many other people are behaving as if Biden's being persecuted and seem much more concerned about whether he is being treated fairly in all of this than about the impact that attitudes such as his may have on African Americans and other minorities.

are not as separated as I first thought, which shows I too can be hasty. Apologies. Please accept them.

Yeah, there is a code. I have a biracial kid ... I run into the crap all the time. Worse yet, he does. But I really don't think Biden was going there. I think he is genuinely appreciative of what Obama brings to our Party.

What worries me is how much attention this has taken ... and there is serious crap going down. Class-ism and racism are manifesting in ways that are literally deadly, and Biden's verbal clumsiness has given the whore media something to seize upon, thereby to keep the average citizen's view off the problems that matter.

Do not be naive ... news researchers check in here to see what's buzzing. So do political analysts hostile to our purposes. We serve ourselves poorly by over reaction, but we have to air this stuff out.

I just don't want to see it happen again ... us wasting our energy fighting each other while truly vile people engineer their way into positions of even greater power.

** On edit: Should hit "Check spelling" before I hit "Post". :)

I think we pretty much agree. However, I don't think it's damaging to discuss these issues. I think it's damaging not to. Racism and classism won't go away if we just don't talk about them - in fact, they fester, perpetuate and grow like a cancer.

One of the reasons I'm so excited about Obama being in the race is that his presence helps to smoke out these issues, trigger important, if painful dialogue and make people think long and hard about their true feelings on issues of race and racism in America. He also is so good at educating people in a firm, but unthreatening way. I love the way he handled this situation - he didn't play the victim, but got his point across that Biden's claim was historically inaccurate. He did it so smoothly but there was no mistaking his point.

I think it's extremely healthy. But I do think it's sad seeing how many supposedly progressive Democrats are going to the mat defending Biden and attacking those of us who are raising valid and important questions about the attitudes that he expressed.

was characteristic of the thoughtful gentleman he is, IMHO.

I don't know what the right approach to that discussion is ... I used the term "hypersensitive" and I think there is some basis for saying that but ... I do see your point. My point is if the discussion gets too tangled, the point is lost and while that happens bad things go down.

I really don't think Biden was trying to talk in the "code". As I said, I have issues with certain of his positions that would preclude me from being a serious supporter of his, but I don't think that is where he is at. I think one of the things he was trying to get at was the credibility of Obama's candidacy is a significant event ... and that part of that significance is that the country as a whole might have grown up enough to elect a qualified person of color for the highest political office. If so, then indeed we have come a long way.

I myself hope that is the case. As Sharpton himself admitted earlier today, he did not enter in 2003 with the expectation of becoming President, but with the purpose of impacting the landscape of the debate. And he sure as hell did that!

But it is clear Obama has a real shot at it.

Here, we diverge some what. I am not so interested in the discussion of race his candidacy is likely to promote, though that may prove to be beneficial. Rather, I am hopeful that this is a man who has the brain, the heart, and the political acumen needed to help this country out of the mess we are in.

The POINT of Biden's remarks about all of his competitors was to elevate himself above them somehow. LOOK at the devices he chose to do that. WE, who have been subjected to "codespeak" have been hollering for DAYS about that codespeak. Biden is from Delaware. Please think about it for a bit...

Has this man NEVER been exposed to "bright, clean, articulate, nice-looking" African Americans in his OWN constituency who might have warned him of the landmine he so obliviously stepped on? Is he isolated in his white men's club or does he not consider their input valid? Did he even bother to ASK??? Many of "us" have experienced the judgement that our input is invalid in the past few days. Just wondering. :shrug:

** Disclaimer. You have won your point. Read to the end.**

People of color are not held to the same standard of linguistic correctness as white people. I have a biracial kid. He gets it from all quarters, lemme tell ya. My experiences in that regard have me wanting to tell a lot of people of color to clean up their own goddam racism.

And there is a part of me that is really frustrated about it all. I think Biden is a corporatist sop ... but I don't think he's particularly racist, and I do not believe he intended to be condescending. (OK, the "clean" bit really made my right eyebrow twitch ... but his explanation makes sense in the context he was trying to establish, i.e. that Obama carries a record without much in the way of baggage. Obama is not corrupt, at least, not yet. Not sure Biden can claim the same ... let's just say I have what I think are reasonable questions on that matter.)

The irony of all this is Obama is articulate. Much more so than Biden. But then, compared to Obama, Biden has the IQ of a carrot. Seriously. Biden has never overly impressed me in the brain department. Obama, Clark, Kucinich, Dean, Pelosi ... yeah. Smart people. Biden. Meh.

For me the issue is not Biden at all. It is the fuckin' double standard of linguistic correctness that pisses me off. And, quite frankly, if we are serious about improving the lives of all people, we have more critical matters to focus upon.

That being said ... I think my own issues are somewhat coloring my reaction to this. I resent the way certain people of color have treated my son. I resent the way certain white people have treated my son. The subject tends to set off my Irish. I know that with a few beers in me I might have said something similar about Obama, and meant it in all sincerity and without any disrespect to anyone.

And in all honesty, despite my personal history, I have to admit that I am not free of the stain of racism. It is a thing I must struggle against. It sucks but it is true. But I do believe strongly the same thing is true for you, and it is in that context I respectfully suggest we grant each other a little slack.

And that does not mean we are bad people. We aren't. We're just less than perfect. We are here, trying to articulate a viewpoint and teach each other something. We could be blowing each other off, harboring our resentments. Instead, we are trying to reason together, along with others in this thread.

So no, buddy, your input is not invalid. It is just not the ONLY valid input. You are here, trying to reason with me as I am trying to reason with you. This is how we fight the beast itself. This is how we come together. Because we took the time to think of words and bang them into keyboards, we've already shown we care about each other and the others in this thread, like beaconess who also took the time to share with me.

That beast we both know retreats somewhat thereby, and we gain a small but real victory over our own demons.

And so I now see that what beaconess and you have been saying is correct after all. We need to have this discussion of race and the poison the world works so hard to inject into our hearts.

Your first paragraph almost pushed my buttons to the max.

"People of color are not held to the same standard of linguistic correctness as white people."

THAT first comment made my stomach turn. It's a VERY hot-button topic for me, as I cannot be "pegged" as black OR coming from a particular region by my speech patterns. I speak unaccented Standard American English and have been physically and psychically ASSAULTED by both whites and blacks because of it.

I realize you are referring to "PC" language, an area of defensiveness and hostility for many, particularly monolinguists. Suffice to say that the acceptance of the FACT that codespeak exists is enough of a basis upon which one can begin to build the bridge of understanding.

I have 2 adult biracial children, both of whom read, write and speak Japanese although neither parent is Asian. They tell many funny "fly-on-the-wall" stories. My family is multi-racial-cultural-national. We have EVERYBODY. And I mean EVERYBODY. I grew up in an international enclave where we kids all had one thing in common. Our dad's were all shrinks at the hospital. Growing up in such an environment tends to foster a different take on what passes as "common knowledge."

Biden is only an issue for me in that he so blatantly represents that "old boy's club" that considers itself above respecting the sensibilities of others. His foot-in-mouth disease is well-documented. That his faux-pas WAS, in my estimation, UNINTENTIONAL, is even more damning.

I'm thrilled that you were able to find common ground with Beaconess. She is, indeed, all that and a bag of chips, who has MUCH MORE patience than I. Dealing with the same old bullshit for over a half century tends to wear on one's nerves. I've been waiting a l-o-n-g time for folks to catch up.

I really appreciated your post. Shall we have a Guinness? :toast:

Especially if you will permit me to buy!

I'm charmed!

Maybe someday we'll have a chance to share a real world one.
:toast:

But I think you may be a little hard on yourself in saying that you have "the stain of racism." Racism is a really strong term that I tend to reserve for those who not only have strong prejudices, a sense of racial superiority AND the power to negatively impact others' lives through it.

What you're describing in yourself I don't believe is racism - it seems more likely that it is prejudice, bias or insensitivity - something we ALL suffer from. There's no sin in it - the sin comes with the refusal to recognize it or to attempt or want to anything to overcome it.

We all have to fight to get past our prejudices - I work on it every day. But you seem to be so much further along than many folks.

Lighten up on yourself!

I need to apologize for exposing you, Karenina and others to my stream of consciousness on the subject. On the other hand, you really made me think about things ...

Good friends are those who care enough about themselves to take a stand, and enough about others to actually talk to them about it. We entered into an honest verbal conflict, with high passions but without animosity. We both cared.

And I had to look into the "why" of my position in greater detail, and found I still think I have a valid point ... but not as valid as I thought. So today I reviewed our words and my own motivations for my part of the dialog. I wasn't entirely happy with what I encountered.

So my point I take as kinda valid ... but it is trumped by yours. We retreat from the discussion of race and how it impacts all those other issues I cited at great peril. My suggestion that we do so out of political cowardice was particularly shameful. Win, lose, or draw ... if we do not insist on what is true, if we are not honest about our own crap along the way, then we can achieve no meaningful change.

Like I said, good friends are the people who call you on your crap and care enough to actually talk to you about it. I think between you and Karenina, I found a couple of new friends.

I'm a middle-aged average white guy and NO ONE has ever told me I'm well-spoken. Now my racist family has told me that some of their favorite black athletes are well-spoken, but have never heard them say it about white people.

Deal with the fact that what he said was racist.

Even the ones that pretend they don't.

but many will surely protest

And you're not even making the radical claim. Don't get DUers started on whether somebody who speaks African American Vernacular English could ever be articulate (the answer, for far too many, is no). Even your low bar (King's English, i.e., standard English/ sounds black) is too high for too many.

But that's not racism, they'll tell you. They're just "perfectionists" when it comes to language, they'll tell you. They just believe that things should be done "properly," they'll tell you. Never mind that "perfection" and "propriety" in such cases always privileges white cultural forms while excluding any other. It's not racism. No. :eyes:

Instead, they insist - and I think they truly believe - that they have valid justifications for their biases. "I'm not a racist - I'm just a perfectionist about language." "I don't have anything against blacks, but they DO commit more crimes, you know." "I'd LOVE to hire a black employee, but my customers would object and I'd lose business . . ."

:)

damn colonists

It's sets my teeth on edge when I am told things like the op. It never fails to amaze me when people are surprised to find that not only I but my family speaks EXCELLENT english. After all, I WAS BORN AND RAISED HERE, FELLAS. What the hell am I supposed to speak? SWAHILI?? Good grief...

Conversely, when I was small, I loathed being told by other black folks that I "sounded white". First of all, how does one change sound into a colour? CRAZY and sad, if you think about it.

should tell people something about why these comments were problematic. Instead, we're being dismissed as whiners.

Shouldn't it tell folks something that SO many blacks seem to have a similar experience with and reaction to being called "articulate?" Couldn't that actually MEAN something. It's a shame that this point of view - which is obviously quite widespread and valid - is given such short shrift by people who claim to be enlightened, but obviously not enlightened enough not to presume that they can reject outright as irrelevant the experiences of other people because they have not had similar experiences?

If a black person talks in ghetto speak, they aren't considered articule.
If a white person talks in red-neck speak, they aren't considered articulate.

I'm curious if you agree with my following perceptions:

The difference is, historically the black person was attacked not just for his speech but for his color and culture as well. I believe there are 3 types of speaking that exist within the black community.
The ghetto speak. (won't say anymore)
The black culture speak. How educated black people talk to each other.
The white speak. How black people have to tone down the black culture speak when talking to white people.

I have many black friends and I love hearing them talk when they are together. They are much more relaxed and much more animated or boisterous with their talking. They are really enjoying themselves and don't have to worry about the white's around them.

the language typically referred to as "Ebonics" (I think formally called African American Vernacular English) - where does that fall in the three cateories you list? Some of my black friends do speak Ebonics (which I, by the way, find quite interesting - I see Ebonics as a dialect and am a bit of a dialect buff) and none of them grew up poor so I certainly would not refer to Ebonics as "ghetto speak". I concede I may have no idea what I am talking about though LOL. :)

Blacks in America have always had to live a duality - and the language is very indicative of it. Most of us have at least two different ways of speaking, as you lay out very well. But it has nothing to do with articulateness, since all of the dialects you describe can be very expressive, and, as such articulate.

But what really irritates many of us is the assumption by many whites that it is somehow unusual for blacks - even highly educated ones - to be articulate. I am the fourth generation in my family to graduate from college. I was educated in some of the finest elementary and secondary schools and attended the most elite universities in the country, received my undergraduate degree in English and earned a doctorate. I have held very responsible and prestigious jobs requiring considerable intellectual skill for the past 20+ years. Yet I am still often described as "articulate" by white folk - it happens so often that it has become a joke among my friends, white and black.

"Being colored sure is fun . . . when ain't nobody looking!" Ossie Davis, "Purlie Victorious"

So, now we come to Biden's use of the term "mainstream".
http://afro-netizen.com/ (Feb. 1)

(Click on the article title if you find there are blank spaces in the text. It will refresh.)

<snip>

Mainstream is one of those funny words like love and racism, because everyone seems to have their own definitions. For me, my sense is that what Biden wanted to say was that Obama is an assimilitated negro. And the set of criteria for this assessment are Obama's image as non-ministerial Black politician who is smart, clean-cut, telegenic, broadly charismatic, light-skinned, well-educated and one who speaks standard English-speaking as well or better than most whitefolk (i.e., the all too familiar racist compliment: "he's sooo articulate!"). This, on top of the fact frequently noted fact that his mother was white (and from the heartland) and ostensibly may have a split racial allegiance or cultural identity that many hope transcends race entirely.

However, this is not an image or political identity that Obama has to verbalize, but is attributed out of the neurosis of racism that compells its victims to twist reality in such a way that conforms to their socio-political dementia.

Within seconds of ending his seminal public address at the Democratic Convention in Boston 3 years ago, a fellow (white) blogger standing next to me in the nose-bleed section there exaltingly sighed, "He's the Tiger Woods of politics!" A revealing comment meant as compliment and taken (by me) as an insult; code for: he's not really Black. He's just like one of us, only with a slightly darker complexion. He's an exception because he's exceptional.

Blackfolk, just like other oppressed people in this society, are expert in deciphering linguistic and non-verbal codes. And the simple fact remains that to many (but not all) of us, Biden's initial remarks, lengthy protestations and rote genuflection to the arbiters of racial correctness evince the most common strain of unintentional racism that make us question the motivations of the most stalwart white supporters of Obama.

in 'articulate' fashion. Hee hee hee. :hide:

Seriously, you hit the nail on the head. And it is quite frustrating to be dismissed so easily, especially around HERE.:banghead:

He's living proof that white people aren't "superior". So what does being articulate have to do with race? And what is the "offense", describing someone as being such? No matter the race, people are either articulate & can express themselves well or not. Obama certainly is, bush certainly isn't.

is considered worthy of comment, since it is assumed that white politicians are articulate. When one isn't, it's news.

On the other hand, educated blacks who have every reason to be articulate are described as such, as if this is a surprising trait. You may not think this is the case, but just look at the number of posts from blacks right here who have related experiences with this. These experiences are not our imagination - it is a very real phenomenon. Intelligent blacks are frequently treated as if our abilities are unusual, when they are treated as a given when displayed by whites.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Race will always be an inflammatory topic whether it be about the Blacks,
Muslims, Asians etc. To continue to attacks Biden's comments as racist is
counterproductive to the matters at hand. I hope threads like this one fall
to the bottom and allow our attention to stay focused on important matters.

:eyes:

:shrug: It's your right, but it doesn't make sense in light of your comments. Just sayin'.

I was thinking the same thing.

The hidden meanings of the way words are used in public nowadays, speaks volumes.

Of course, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

The light in the tower illuminating the way to safety... :loveya:

:yourock:

I think I was a cross-over until I decided to be eccentric.