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WHICH of the potential CANDIDATES has spoken out about this issue and can reverse it?

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 04:53 PM
Original message
Poll question: WHICH of the potential CANDIDATES has spoken out about this issue and can reverse it?
As some know, the PNAC Plan is a frightening one.

This small think tank has pushed their ideology, the bottomline of it being:

An agressive United States who uses military might with the stated goal of dominating the world thru this century.

To date, PNAC has been successful in selling its doctrine which has been applied and is our our current foreign policy tenent.

By invading Iraq, the PNAC plan has the United States controlling the 2nd largest reserve of oil; oil that China needs to expand.

By threatening Iran, the PNAC plan has the United States warning all who don't have nuclear capabilities that aspirations of obtaining such will not be tolerated and furthermore the United States pledges to stop countries that even look like they are trying, regardless of what the ultimate cost might be.

In otherwords, The PNAC doctrine of elective war has been realized through our current government's words and actions.

The question is, who has spoken about this think tank ideology, and what this ideology is meant to achieve? In ADDITION, which of the Democratic candidates is best equiped to reverse this current Foreign policy approach?

Please provide sources to back up your choice as to who has spoken on this, and why they are likely the best person to actually do something to change this ideology currently in practice.

Thank you. :patriot:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clark and Kucinich, but best equipped....would have to be Clark, as it's his area of expertise.
.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Whomever voted for Al Gore, please provide context......
Here's some info on General Clark's contribution:


General Wesley Clark, the late entry into the race for the Democratic nomination for president, is making what critics called a “bizarre,” “crackpot” attack on a small Washington policy organization and on a citizens group that helped America win the Cold War.

In a Tuesday interview with Joshua Micah Marshall posted yesterday on the Web site talkingpointsmemo.com, General Clark gave his evaluation of the Clinton presidency. He said that the Clinton administration,“in an odd replay of the Carter administration, found itself chained to the Iraqi policy — promoted by the Project for a New American Century— much the same way that in the Carter administration some of the same people formed the Committee on the Present Danger which cut out from the Carter administration the ability to move forward on SALT II.”
http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2003/10/02&ID=Ar00100



Wesley Clark's Conspiracy Theory
The general tells Wolf Blitzer about the neoconservative master plan.
by Matthew Continetti
12/01/2003 2:00:00 PM

Yesterday on CNN's "Late Edition," for example, Clark said--not for the first time--that the Bush administration's war plans extend far beyond Iraq.

"I do know this," Clark told Wolf Blitzer. "In the gossip circles in Washington, among the neoconservative press, and in some of the statements that Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Wolfowitz have made, there is an inclination to extend this into Syria and maybe Lebanon." What's more, Clark added, "the administration's never disavowed this intent."

Clark has made his charge a central plank of his presidential campaign. Clark writes in his book, "Winning Modern Wars," that in November 2001, during a visit to the Pentagon, he spoke with "a man with three stars who used to work for me," who told him a "five-year plan" existed for military action against not only Afghanistan and Iraq, but also "Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia, and Sudan." Clark has embellished this story on the campaign trail, going so far as to say, "There's a list of countries."

Clark's proof? None. He never saw the list. But, the general recently told the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "You only have to listen to the gossip around Washington and to hear what the neoconservatives are saying, and you will get the flavor of this."

You probably get the flavor of what Wesley Clark is saying, too. It tastes, as THE SCRAPBOOK pointed out three weeks ago, like baloney. And sometimes, as in the case of yesterday's interview with Blitzer, it tastes like three-week-old baloney.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/445cqeal.asp




Bush used 9/11 as a pretext to implement Iraq invasion plan
Clark told me how he learned of a secret war scheme within the Bush Administration, of which Iraq was just one piece.
Shortly after 9/11, Clark visited the Pentagon, where a 3-star general confided that Rumsfeld's team planned to use the 9/11 attacks as a pretext for going to war against Iraq. Clark said, "Rather than searching for a solution to a problem, they had the solution, and their difficulty was to make it appear as though it were in response to the problem." Clark was told that the Bush team, unable or unwilling to fight the actual terrorists responsible for 9/11, had devised a 5-year plan to topple the regimes in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Iran, and Sudan.

Clark's central contention-that Bush used 9/11 as a pretext to attack Saddam-has been part of the public debate since well before the Iraq war. It is rooted in the advocacy of the Project for the New American Century, a neo-conservative think tank that had been openly arguing for regime change in Iraq since 1998.
Source: The New Yorker magazine, "Gen. Clark's Battles" Nov 17, 2003



Gen. Wes Clark layed out the PNAC mentality in a long article.

Here's some excerpts from Clark's article, "Broken Engagement"

During 2002 and early 2003, Bush administration officials put forth a shifting series of arguments for why we needed to invade Iraq. Nearly every one of these has been belied by subsequent events.
snip
Advocates of the invasion are now down to their last argument: that transforming Iraq from brutal tyranny to stable democracy will spark a wave of democratic reform throughout the Middle East, thereby alleviating the conditions that give rise to terrorism. This argument is still standing because not enough time has elapsed to test it definitively--though events in the year since Baghdad's fall do not inspire confidence.
snip
Just as they counseled President Bush to take on the tyrannies of the Middle East, so the neoconservatives in the 1980s and early 1990s advised Presidents Reagan and George H.W. Bush to confront the Soviet Union and more aggressively deploy America's military might to challenge the enemy.....
snip
As has been well documented, even before September 11, going after Saddam had become a central issue for them. Their "Project for a New American Century" seemed intent on doing to President Clinton what the Committee on the Present Danger had done to President Carter: push the president to take a more aggressive stand against an enemy, while at the same time painting him as weak.
snip
September 11 gave the neoconservatives the opportunity to mobilize against Iraq, and to wrap the mobilization up in the same moral imperatives which they believed had achieved success against the Soviet Union. Many of them made the comparison direct, in speeches and essays explicitly and approvingly compared the Bush administration's stance towards terrorists and rogue regimes to the Reagan administration's posture towards the Soviet Union.

And the neoconservative goal was more ambitious than merely toppling dictators: By creating a democracy in Iraq, our success would, in the president's words, "send forth the news from Damascus to Tehran--that freedom can be the future of every nation," and Iraq's democracy would serve as a beacon that would ignite liberation movements and a "forward strategy of freedom" around the Middle East.

This rhetoric is undeniably inspiring. We should have pride in our history, confidence in our principles, and take security in the knowledge that we are at the epicenter of a 228-year revolution in the transformation of political systems. But recognizing the power of our values also means understanding their meaning. Freedom and dignity spring from within the human heart. They are not imposed. And inside the human heart is where the impetus for political change must be generated.

The neoconservative rhetoric glosses over this truth and much else. Even aside from the administration's obvious preference for confronting terrorism's alleged host states rather than the terrorists themselves, it was a huge leap to believe that establishing democracies by force of Western arms in old Soviet surrogate states like Syria and Iraq would really affect a terrorist movement drawing support from anti-Western sentiment in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and elsewhere.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0405.clark.html



Apparently for the neoconservative civilians who are running the Iraq campaign, 9-11 was that catalyzing event—for they are now operating at full speed toward multiple, simultaneous wars. The PNAC documents can be found online at newamericancentury.org.

his new book, Winning Modern Wars, retired general Wesley Clarkcandidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, offered a window into the Bush serial-war planning. He writes that serious planning for the Iraq war had already begun only two months after the 9-11 attack, and adds:

I went back through the Pentagon in November 2001, one of the senior military staff officers had time for a chat. Yes, we were still on track for going against Iraq, he said. But there was more. This was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan. . . . I left the Pentagon that afternoon deeply concerned."

A five-year military campaign. Seven countries. How far has the White House taken this plan? And how long can the president keep the nation in the dark, emerging from his White House cocoon only to speak to us in slogans and the sterile language of pep rallies?
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0342,schanberg,47830,1.html


Was David Brooks “careful not to say that Bush or neocon critics are anti-Semitic?” David Brooks was careful, all right. You can see how “careful” he was in the passage which slimed Wesley Clark:

BROOKS: The full-mooners fixated on a think tank called the Project for the New American Century, which has a staff of five and issues memos on foreign policy. To hear these people describe it, PNAC is sort of a Yiddish Trilateral Commission, the nexus of the sprawling neocon tentacles.
We’d sit around the magazine guffawing at the ludicrous stories that kept sprouting, but belief in shadowy neocon influence has now hardened into common knowledge. Wesley Clark, among others, cannot go a week without bringing it up.
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh010904.shtml



There are many legitimate reasons to criticize the foreign and defense policies of the Bush administration, but Winning Modern Wars would have us believe that the president dangerously derailed the nation’s security policy and diverted resources from the war on terrorism to the dead-end enterprise in Iraq. He blames Bush for everything he believes has gone wrong, and gives him no credit for anything that has gone right, including major steps toward transforming the US military from a Cold War force to one more suited to the current and likely future security environment.

In Clark’s world, vulnerability to terrorism is all George Bush’s fault. Of course, Bush had only been in office for eight months when Al Qaida struck on 9/11. The threat had been incubating during the Clinton years, but that administration had done little or nothing to address it. The most Clark can say about the Clinton administration’s inattention to the emerging terrorist threat is that "in retrospect, it clear that he could have done more."

Clark is a member in good standing of the "Bush lied" school - an outlook based on the claim that the president and his advisers had intended to invade Iraq from the very beginning, and knowingly deceived Congress and the American people in order to drag them into this unnecessary war. As evidence for this, he cites a 1998 letter from an organization called the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) calling on president Clinton to remove Saddam from power. Those who signed the letter included Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz.
http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/owens/04/clark.html



EXCERPTS FROM HARDBALL INTERVIEW 12/17/04

CLARK: ...I think, you know, a guy like Bill Kristol, what he sees is that Secretary Rumsfeld‘s plan is not unfolding the way that the neocons thought it should unfold in the Middle East. This was supposed to be like a scaffold. You know, you just go in there and carve out Saddam Hussein, boom, the people are liberated. And they‘re all democratic. And then the Syrians jump on board and say, hey, by golly, come and save us too. And then the Iranians and the Lebanese.

It hasn‘t worked that way, because what the neocons didn‘t understand is, that you don‘t get the kind of Democratic reform you want in the Middle East at the barrel of a gun. And they‘re holding Rumsfeld responsible for that. But really, it‘s a flawed conception.

MATTHEWS: That‘s interesting. You‘re the first person I‘ve heard say that, general. Because a lot of people look at it much more narrowly and they say the reason we‘re getting criticism of the general is there aren‘t enough troops there. He said he had enough troops, when really in reality, it was the conception that justified the low troop level. Is that your point? That you did not need a lot of troops, because you weren‘t going to face much of an insurgency.

CLARK: .....One is the point of the neocons, which is not military at all. It is the point of the operation and the fact that you could sort of go in there and lance the boil of Saddam Hussein, get him out of there and everything would turn out OK. And it hasn‘t.
http://securingamerica.com/node/60

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. Please provide source on Bill Richardson.
This is a poll, that also asks WHO has spoken out on this to date?

Please provide source and words of the person you are voting for.
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PresidentObama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wes Clark n/t
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. The PNAC is dead.
The ambitions proclaimed when the neo-cons' mission statement "The Project for the New American Century" was declared in 1997 have turned into disappointment and recriminations as the crisis in Iraq has grown.

"The Project for the New American Century" has been reduced to a voice-mail box and a ghostly website. A single employee has been left to wrap things up.

The idea of the "Project" was to project American power and influence around the world.

more...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6189793.stm
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Those naive enough to say what you have just said....
Edited on Sat Feb-10-07 05:58 PM by FrenchieCat
barely deserve a response.

The Ideology will continue on.....regardless of its name.

Understand that the current Administration's ideology as implementated reflects the PNAC mentality...and there are certain Democrats who seem to want to continue this mentality, witnessed by what they are saying to and about Iran...meaning you have not a clue as to how this all works.

So.....has John Edwards ever uttered the acronym PNAC since 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006? When even you considered the think tank still "alive and active"?
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I meant it figuratively
Edited on Sat Feb-10-07 06:18 PM by MATTMAN
of course you cannot kill an ideology but if it is without political clout then what is it worth?
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. How is the ideology without political clout? Since I'm talking realistically....
Edited on Sat Feb-10-07 06:26 PM by FrenchieCat
The current government currently employs this ideology,
Candidates condone this ideology,
and Krystol, the father of this ideology is currently working for a large corporate media conglamorate-

founding member Bill Krystol just “got” himself a job with the Times (Times-Warner parent of CNN) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2005/10/12/conservative-columnist-bi_n_8746.html
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. ?
that article is about Harriet Miers.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. You were right.....here is another link.....on Krystol's new job.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It says he is Time magazine's managing editor.
I am glad that I don't read Time Magazine. They also did a horrible job of picking person of the year.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Actually, that wasn't it either! LOL! He's editor of Weekly Standards.....NEOCON press galore!
Here is one talking about his new job. (I will be taking a nap soon!)
http://www.worldgolf.com/blogs/william.wolfrum/2007/01/10/if_bill_kristol_can_get_a_job_at_time_ma
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I suppose if Edwards were in the senate now
he would soon be voting for the IWR. (Iran war resolution).
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Probably co-sponsoring it n/t
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. PNAC doesn't need a seperate office any longer
They have the office of the Vice President, who may not be well, but who is very much still alive.
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citizen snips Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. If any indication from last years election
is true and the democrats become stronger and win the white house and consolidate more control over congress then we will not have to worry about the PNAC. But that is just my opinion.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-10-07 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Taking the White House is critical
Edited on Sat Feb-10-07 08:18 PM by Tom Rinaldo
But war with Iran could start before then if we are not strong enough in opposition. It could even happen with a Democratic President not skilled enough to back a desire for diplomacy up with enough hands on experience to make diplomacy work.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
18. No one answered your PNAC challange Frenchie
Given how many of us are worried about Bush Administration plans toward Iran, it is either surprising that no one has bothered, or troubling that no one can.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. No one can, cause none of them have uttered PNAC in public....
other than Wes Clark.

Which shows me that although many want to laud various candidates has being courageous, most of them really aren't....not enough to stick their neck out on the line understanding full well that they would be called crazy, etc.

I'm sure that Kucinich may have said something about, as it is in character for him to have done so. The others; not so much.

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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
20. Mike Gravel is running also!
Why do so many DU posts seem to ignore Mike Gravel's candidacy?

Although he didn't specifically address PNAC, he said plenty to let us know where he stands. On his issues web page, he says this about Iraq:

The Senator was one of the first current or former elected officials to publicly oppose the planned invasion of Iraq in 2002. He appeared on MSNBC prior to the invasion insisting that intelligence showed that there were indeed NO weapons of mass destruction, that Iraq posed no threat to the United States and that invading Iraq was against America’s national interests. Since declaring his candidacy for President, Senator Gravel has called for an immediate and orderly withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Iraq combined with aggressive and skilled diplomacy to end the sectarian violence currently consuming Iraq. (See article by Gen. William Odom of the Hudson Institute regarding the justification for withdrawing on page 4).

Senator Gravel firmly opposes President Bush's decision to send 20,000 more troops to Iraq. The majority of Americans do not support the move.


If you listen to his speech at the DNC (or you can read it), you will understand his position on the PNAC.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Do we have any links to his 2002 MSNBC appearances?
transcripts or something?

So he's never mentioned PNAC. What about using the label NeoCons?
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dfgrbac Donating Member (378 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-12-07 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Why?
Mike Gravel has not really been a political figure since he left the Senate. He has not made significant public statements until recently deciding to run for President. But he has certainly laid out his view on current political policy well.

He had strong credentials in the Senate. He filibustered the military draft out of existence. He released the Pentagon Papers to reveal corruption on the Viet Nam war.

He has spent over a decade designing with constitutional experts the National Initiative for Democracy, which is his number one issue - to empower the people to solve problems directly through ballot initiatives at all levels of government - local, state, and national.
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