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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:30 AM
Original message
Clarkies: What do you think.....

If General Clark shows up at the Nevada candidates forum in 10 days.. would you consider that the 2nd bone he's thrown as far as his '08 plans?

I think by showing up at the DNC Winter Meeting and giving the speech he did, he did toss this bone--

I speak to you today as the only person who will take this podium before you to have actually done the things we need to do to succeed in Iraq, Afghanistan and throughout the world.

And I believe that being right isn't enough. We must also be strong.

So while I get angry, I'm reminded of the old saying: Don't get mad; get even.

And to me, getting even isn't about political payback, but it's, instead, getting equality, justice, balance and fair play back into American life.





There's no mention of the forum on his upcoming calendar-- And when you pull up the media articles about the forum, you get two different responses..


February 9th:
Candidates who have confirmed for the event include U.S. Sens. Hillary Clinton of New York, Joseph Biden of Delaware and Christopher Dodd of Connecticut; former New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, former Iowa Gov. Tom Vilsack, retired general Wesley Clark and former U.S. Sens. Mike Gravel of Alaska and John Edwards of North Carolina.

The moderator of the forum will be George Stephanopoulos, host of the ABC News public affairs program "This Week."

http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070209/NEWS10/702090434/1016/NEWS

... then the next day:

February 10th:
Retired Gen. Wesley Clark has expressed interest but has not formally signed on, Searer said.

http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/5678536.html

It seems like he hasn't made up his mind on whether he's going to attend the forum as the only unofficial candidate (like he did at the winter meeting)..

Do you think in 10 short days.. if he DOES indeed show up.. that we can take that as a pretty good sign that he's jumping in?

Or if he decides not to show up (since he doesn't have anything else booked that date).. should we take that as a worrisome sign?

Sometimes it's like Deja Vu 2003 all over again. "Is you in, or is you isn't"







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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. I don't know what to think anymore....
but the longer he waits, I think the more diminished his chances are to secure good talent and $$$, a redux of 2003. I don't know what his strategy is here.

Sigh.

I haven't made up my mind yet, but he's still on the top of my list with Obama. There is no one else running that I feel I can actively support.

What is your gut telling you?
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. I feel just like you do...

But I'm thinking if he shows up (or even if he opts out) we may know more on February 20 than we know today.. I hope...
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DonkeyInChinaShop Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. Clark
He got most of his money from Clinton's people in 2003/2004.

National security is not on everyone's top list like it was in 2004. That was Clark's strength.

Many of Clark's grassroots people are getting behind Obama.

Less money, less of a top issue and less grassroots should equal no Clark. I think he is trying to see if the other candidates realize how much he could be a help to them. Clark is not a lot of people's No. 1 anymore, but he has a lot of people who have him as their second favorite. If he's smart, he's playing the contenders for VP or Secretary of Defense, something in exchange for an endorsement.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Clark's not going to get into this race to be somebody's #2
and he can't be Sec of Defense until 2010, them's the rules.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yeah...

Many of Clark's grassroots people are getting behind Obama.


I was shocked to read the other day, that John Hlinko-- -- the FOUNDER of the original Draft Clark is now working with the Obama team.

I had no idea..

I also heard that some "top Democrats from Boston" were signing on with Barack Obama on CNN today.. but I didn't catch whether they meant campaign people or some big time politicians..

I'm going to just ASSume that we're going to get a pretty good feel for which way he's headed within the next 10 days.. If he decides to go to that forum, I think that's a sign.

And if he doesn't go... we wait.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I'm not surprised......
Edited on Sun Feb-11-07 03:06 AM by FrenchieCat
Hlinko was also looking at Warner earlier. And the key word is "working". Folks gotta eat, ya know!

Without money or media or personal fortune, Clark no matter how qualified he may be has to think about this run a bit harder than rockstars Hillary and Obama and Poor guy John "House" Edwards.

What I do know is that this is the middle of February, not the middle of September.

I also know that running for President isn't a game....and considering the hills to climb, it ain't necessarily just one of those things. If he decides within the next 10 days or so, I believe that he still has time.

What I will say is with the overwhelming strong determination by the media to decide what's what, it ain't gonna be easy.

Sometimes I wish that he would decide not to run in this fix crap game called politics....but I am so certain that he would be such a wonderful President until it is hard for me to watch someone as qualified for these times as he is not to be given a fair chance at it. It makes me mad.....and when I get mad, I want to get even.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Odd, when I looked at where he got his money from.....
Don't see what you report.... :shrug:
Source of Funds:
(How to read this chart / methodology)

Individual contributions
$17,362,255
59%

PAC contributions
$45,950
0%

Candidate self-financing
$0
0%

Federal Funds
$7,615,360
26%

Other
$4,563,097
15%

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/summary.asp?ID=N00026187


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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. "Clark's grassroots people getting behind Obama"
This is being said about Edwards, too, by the way, that Clark's support is moving to Edwards. Neither of them can count on it staying, however. If Clark announces, you will see a whole lot of rethinking going on.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. National security wasn't on the top of the Dem list in 2004
That's how we lost. Let's hope we are wiser for 2008. When voters pull the lever, it will be on national security.

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Boo Boo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. There is no question at all that national security is the number one
Edited on Sun Feb-11-07 01:59 PM by Boo Boo
political issue of the day. It boggles my mind that anybody could think otherwise. That doesn't mean that other issues aren't important, or that people aren't concerned about a whole range of issues, but all you have to do is watch the evening news---it's all "Surge" and Iran, all the time.

What rock you been livin' under?
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Jai4WKC08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
21. What a bunch of blooey
Edited on Sun Feb-11-07 05:13 PM by Jai4WKC08
First off, most of Clark's money in 04 came from the grassroots. He had the lowest average donation amount of any candidate except Kucinich. (Note: this is an edit -- first time I typed Dean... don't know what I was thinking).

Secondly, national security was not enough of an issue in 2004, and not near as imporant as it is now. Poll after poll in '03-04 time frame showed that Democrats care FAR more about jobs and healthcare than they did terrorism or the war in Iraq. Now it's pretty much the opposite, and personally, I think it's likely to get worse by 2008.

Finally, it's just sheer fantasy/wishful thinking to believe Clark's grassroots have abandoned him. We're still here, and every bit as strong as before.

But hey. Nice try to capitalize on people's impatience and doubt. Better luck next time.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 02:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. Self delete....
Edited on Sun Feb-11-07 03:06 AM by FrenchieCat
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dmosh42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. We need him now!
I have the feeling he's getting offers from Clinton, or one of the other candidates, for a top admin job, and maybe the money thing is a big obstacle. Or, maybe the job with Fox News has prohibitions in their contract. Whatever it is, this country needs the leaders to be the opposition to the Bush gang right now! I have been wanting someone to be a little bold in trying to get some effort going to demand legislation to prohibit any adventures into Iran. Biden and Kucinich have the strongest efforts so far, but they would have the hardest time overcoming Clinton or Obama. Clark has that very accomplished background, and attitude that could spearhead some opposition to our Looney-Tune administration.
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CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Well, Clark has said recently a couple of times I believe...
that he would delay his decision on jumping in precisely because he is trying to work this Iraq-Iran policy thing. He thinks that if he's a candidate, everything he says will be viewed through a political lens and he thinks that would be a detriment to what he's trying to do...and that is stop this madness with Iran. And we did hear Maxine Waters the other day speaking of how Wes was advising them on Bush's going after Iran.

I know it's really really strange to find someone in the political world who actually cares more about our future than his own political fortunes but I guess that's why Mario Cuomo said, complimenting Wes, that as a politician, he's got a lot to learn.

To him, it's more important that the world doesn't blow up than that he becomes President. Apparently, that's pretty unheard of in the political realm and so almost impossible for some to comprehend....but it's just one of the reasons his supporters admire him so.

Whatever he decides, I know it will be the right thing.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Amen to Wes Clark "more important that the world doesn't blow up"
Makes me love him even more than in 2003. :loveya: General!!
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CarolNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Yeah, if only all politicians would play by the rules Wes does...
we'd all be a lot better off. By the looks of it, though, that's not going to happen any time soon. :(
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Wesin04 Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
10. Can't post campaign events on PAC
The events in Nevada and beyond are not on the WesPAC site because if he attends, they are campaign related. The two entities cannot mix, so they would not be posting. The UCLA event is on there because it's public and was not campaign related when it was planned. So, don't let the absence of event notices convince you he isn't running...Let's see what the next week or so brings and hope he decides to make this run!
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
16. Several reactions
I take Clark's committment to working with the Democratic majority in Congress to head off a widening conflict in the Middle East very seriously, and almost 10% of our Democratic Senators are now running for President, needing to suck up as much media coverage of themselves and their own positions as possible. Factor in that many other Senators are closely alligned with one of the Democratic Senators who is running, and it is easy to see how much more complicated it will be for Wes Clark to stay out of their limelight while working with Congress to find solutions once he is a declared candidate.

Clark is walking a tightrope on his timing for entering. By the calender, it still is very early for the Presidential field to finalize, with the first contest over 11 months away. When Clark entered in September of 2003 he had no organization whatsoever in place, and he knew relatively few Democratic officials and office holders at any level. All of that is different now, even Clark's grassroots supporter network is highly seasoned for this time around. So in a concrete sense, I think it makes little difference if Clark declares in one week or four weeks, and the differenece between one and four weeks could be Clark having three more effective weeks working with the new Democratic majority on some critically important issues. That is a big deal to him.

On the other hand there are perceptions, and perceptions drive reality some times. If too many people conclude that Clark is not going to run, or that it is too late for him if he does run, that will set Clark back in initial support, and all things being equal, no set backs are good. If all Clark cared about was how best to ace his chances to become President, I think deciding sooner rather than later, meaning within one week rather than within five weeks, though I know some Clarkies feel otherwise (for reasons like let the other "guys" beat each other up for awhile- and other arguments). But I also know that his personal ambitions run a distant second to his desire to do what is best for the nation, which is a large part of why I am such a strong Clark supporter. For me it is a complete no brainer, I will wait for Clark to declare one way or the other and I will support him if he runs.

I think if Clark makes that Nevada event you can take it to the bank that he is running for President, no if's ands or buts. If he doesn't, it doesn't mean the opposite but it obviously allows the uncertainty to continue. Clark got one free pass from the Democratic Party and the rest of the field by being allowed to speak at the DNC Winter Meeting even though he had not declared his intentions. Probably because Dean pushed for allowing him in for any number of reasons that I can only guess at, and because it really was such a unique opportunity for candidates to address the entire Democratic Party. The event in Nevada is not at that level, it is one of many such candidate forums that will be happening non stop from now on. I doubt any of the other candidates would stand for Clark attending it if he has not already laid his cards on the table.

Regarding needing to assemble staff and a fear that all the best staff will be gone, funny how that is not a fear expressed about Al Gore should he later enter the race. There are many good staffers potentially still out there, though not all of them already have a strong national reputation. Kerry got the pick of the litter when he was the Democratic candidate for President and he might have been better off with a runt. Here is the big difference for Clark this year compared to 2004. Clark knows what he wants and needs in a campaign staff now, having been through this once before, but he didn't in 2004.

In 2004 Clark had to quickly sift through the list of remaining possible staff with previously established national reputations, who were still available, there was no other pool that Clark then had access to and/or was equipped to look through. Think back to 1992. For the most part Bill Clinton didn't have a campaign staff made up of high profile Democratic operatives then, he came to the game with his own Little Rock mafia staff, and the beltway pundits didn't hold them in the highest respect. George Stephanopoulos, Clinton's deputy campaing manager, was a young very new kid on the block back then. And what about James Carville? Wikipedia says this about the ragin' cajun":

"James Carville (born October 25, 1944), is an American political consultant, commentator, and pundit. Also known as the "Ragin' Cajun" or "Corporal Cueball", Carville gained national attention for his work as the strategist of the successful 1992 presidential campaign of then-Arkansas governor Bill Clinton. (David Wilhelm was the campaign manager.)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Carville

In other words, James Carville at this point prior to the 1992 Presidential Election was virtually an unknown political operative. And read this about Mickey Cantor (written after Clinton became our nominee):

"Mickey Kantor, the savvy Westside politico-lawyer who is serving as the Arkansas governor's overall campaign manager...

... On the campaign side, Kantor chaired the drive that first put Alan Cranston in the U.S. Senate, ran the unsuccessful presidential bid of ex-California Gov. Edmund "Jerry" Brown Jr. in 1976 and spearheaded the failed Golden State White House drives of both Jimmy Carter and Walter Mondale."
http://chipjacobs.com/a_ifclintonwins.html

Back then, but even more so before Clinton actually won the Democratic nomination, Kantor wasn't exactly seen as a winning political dynamo. For example there was this story in the Newe York Times about him:

THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: Campaign Staff; A Veteran Insider in Clinton's Camp
By RICHARD L. BERKE
June 7, 1992

Gov. Bill Clinton's campaign chairman is a prominent lawyer-lobbyist here who is best known for his first-hand and repeated experience at running failed Democratic races for the White House. The losing streak of the chairman, Mickey Kantor, began in 1976, when he headed the Presidential campaign of Edmund G. Brown Jr., then Governor of California. Four years later, as state chairman for President Jimmy Carter's re-election effort, he watched the White House slip from Democratic control."
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/k/mickey_kantor/index.html?s=oldest&

But here is the key that worked for Bill Clinton in 1992, and will work for Wes Clark in 2008. Clinton was able to identify a group of campaign staff who understood his strengths as a candidate, and who Clinton in turn knew and understood back. Clinton brought a team into the game that he was comfortable working with, something Wes Clark was unable to do in 2004. It didn't matter to Clinton whether or not the beltway pundits were impressed with his staff yet, what mattered to Clinton was that he was impressed with his staff, and that they knew how to work together well. If Clark runs in 2008 I am quite confident that he will assemble a superb staff for his campaign, and if those that don't have big positive national reputations now, will sure as hell have them after Clark's campaign really starts rolling.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Great statistic, Tom: "almost 10% of our Democratic Senators are now running for President"
That really puts it into a different perspective.
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jen4clark Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
18. I think he's in
but I don't think he'll announce soon. (Wes Jr. said as much a week or 2 ago on kos.) It's still very early. Money and people don't run out. I'll continue to be patient and trust that General Clark will enter when the time is right. He's no fool. He won't make the same mistakes he made last time. If by some chance he decides not to run, I'll be heading to the Draft Gore camp.

I don't know why those already in decided to start so early. For the senators running, that's almost 2 years of them missing lots of votes in a Senate where we only just won with a very slim majority. Sad that they decided being a Senator just isn't that important.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
19. I am offended by your use of the phrase "toss the bone"
I suspect that it's all stage craft. Politics is show biz. You can't just enter the race; you have to make an Entrance. I was worried for a while, but I'm certain Clark is in. Watch for it, wait for it, and wonder at its brilliance.

We'll show those Obama people just who's the Jesus Christ around here!
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
22. I hope he's in. He'd get my vote.
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ArkySue Donating Member (647 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
23. He's running
I just know it. Let the other candidates beat each other up for awhile, then get in. The other candidates will look like damaged goods, so to speak.
America needs Wes Clark, now more than ever. I don't think he'll let us down.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-11-07 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I Know, But I Am Getting Weary
I want to get to work NOW for General Clark. I know he has his reasons, and I am confident in him. Guess I'll have to be even MORE patient.:-(
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