A visit with a Republican family member this week....it was reconciling.

First the result of the visit. We were all cautious at first. He is a retired military officer given to loyalty, but when he sees the light he is pretty open. We have not seen them in several years, and I was nervous.

He made it clear that he knew they had been hurtful to us. He let us know they were no longer relying on Rush,Coulter, Mona Charen, and Michelle Malkin for their news and views. They are both college-educated, she retired from teaching...I don't how they fell for it in the first place.

His opinions were clear. He is totally disgusted with Bush and what he has done to the party and the country. He thinks he should be impeached at once. He's not sure what he should be impeached for as there are so many lies he has told and crimes he's committed. Those are close to his words.

He thinks we need to get out of Iraq before more die needlessly. He knows Bush won't allow it.

He is disgusted with the way the GOP has used wedge issues. He was not sure why they had done it. I explained that a lot of that was due to Karl Rove's tactics, and he believed me. He said Rove was a disgusting piece of work. I mentioned Bush's Brain. His wife said they would rent it, that they were learning how much harm he had done to their party. He thinks the Democrats should and will do whatever they can to show him up for who he is.

They like Rudi Giuliani, and they think they could go for Thompson if he runs. They used to like McCain, but not since he started using the wedge issues. They were disgusted with that. They don't especially care that Rudi has been married 3 times.

He asked me something...he said he did not understand about the judges. His wife said now don't get so upset. He said no, he had to know and he knew I could explain it to him. He did not trust what the media was saying. He said he had one question....were they Bush appointees. I said yes. He said, and they did not toe the line. He called it attacking the judicial system.

The most interesting thing he said was that Bill Clinton's lies did not hurt the country as bad as those of Bush. That was an amazing statement from him, as he was totally taken in by Starr's work.

He asked who we were voting for, I said not sure but we both liked Edwards and hoped Gore ran. They both agreed either would be good. They had hated Gore in 2000. Another amazing change among many with them. They respect Gore highly now.

He asked what we thought about Hillary Clinton. I tried not to say too much because of how much he hated her hubby for his white house indiscretion. I said she would be a good president, but that we would not choose her in the primary. He said of course we wouldn't, he said all the Republicans he knew realized she was appealing to them more than Democrats. He stated it as a known fact.

We had not seen them in years, and had been estranged almost completely over everything that has happened in this country. They had in essence said we were unpatriotic for not supporting the war, for not taking the president at his word. They had said we should be careful what we said and what causes we stood for.

I was nervous when I heard they were coming, but I knew he was changing. So I had hope.

The divisions in my mostly Republican family started in 2000 during the recount....a phone call about idiots in Florida not knowing how to count the votes. I realized later those were Rush Limbaugh talking points during that time.

I was hurt and stunned because my family were never that kind of Republican, never. Suddenly they were. Even some family closest to me were sounding judgmental and had a tone of rancor that I had never heard. They had a passion against "liberals." I never thought about being a "liberal". I soon discovered I was one of those creatures they hated. I did not understand it at first. I never had thought much about "liberal" or dwelt on any of those terms, like moderate or left wing or right wing.

I was a Christian, a Southern Baptist, a teacher, very law abiding, careful with money, friendly to neighbors, working with community groups. I guess I considered myself a decent person.

It was the rise of the Rovian type of politics, only none of us knew it then. It happened while we were not really paying attention. It was a politics of anger and division and bigotry. It took me a couple of years to get it....that my family members were getting caught up in something ugly and were not really aware.

One by one some peace has been made with various relatives. It took a long time. Longer than it should have taken.

seeing the light.

Especially that there are quite a few who are labeled Republicans are seeing the light concerning Bush. They are also understanding that the Clinton impeachment was a travesty, especially concerning what this administration has been doing.

I believe, and firmly, that folks are starting to see through the tactics.

I'm glad that the family is becoming reconciled, it's a good sign. Peace and blessings.

Was it just an accumulation of scandals that finally broke through to them or something specific, did they say?

It has been building up, but that did it.

Gandhi:"it has been my experience that I am always true from my point of view and often wrong from the point of view of my honest critics. I know that we are both right from our respective points of view, and this knowledge saves me from attributing motives to my opponents or critics. The seven blind men who gave seven different descriptions of the elephant were all right from their respective points of view. I very much like this doctrine of the manysideness of reality. It is this doctrine that has taught me to judge a Muslim from his own standpoint and a Christian from his. Formerly 1 used to resent the ignorance of my opponents. Today 1 can love them because I am gifted with the eye to see myself as others see me. . . .


Before you blast Gandhi, note his careful adjective "honest" critics.

They and their fellow spin masters have been a major part of the problem.

This relative's point of view toward us had been defined and developed for years, but he never knew it. It all came pouring out when we opposed the war. The above figures did their best work of hatred and division during the early war years.

We were dealing with a propaganda machine and were not aware of it right away.

its not a new phenomenon. Only the media is new.

During our early years, there were numerous news flyers printed. All of them with the editorial content at the whim of the owner. There was no fact based reporting.

So I have to believe that Gandhi had the same issues. His qualification of "Honest" critics means that he, too, encountered dishonest critics.

madfloridian mentions his relative's respect for fred thompson. it might be misplaced! thompson acts as fill in for paul harvey, and look at some of his lies about Gandhi (who grew up in south africa, and had no illusions about rightwing racists) during a recent broadcast:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTM1NTg1YjFhMGE5MzZjZDUzNzNhNzdkMjE2YmEyNTY=

But Thompson impresses so many people, he could be a strong candidate for them. You need to make a post about that Harvey stuff. You really do. Send it to the DNC for their research. They have started their page on Thompson.

you're right: thompson's an empty suit, all bluster and bore. I imagine DNC knows about thompson, after all how much lower can we go then paul harvey (nearly 90 years old yet gloating over dead iraqi children)...still, to assume everyone knows the facts about fred's attitudes might let him escape scrutiny

The nations sure as hell needs some at present. Rove and the rest of the dividers are finally exposed. There is hope.

People are coming to terms with just how much they have been lied to and how naive they were to fall for it. They are reaching out to us.

If we reach out in friendship, there is healing.

Thanks for sharing your personal experience.

Hope and healing... then we ALL work together to save the nation.

To the Greatest page, it's a great view of how retired Marine Uncle Bob and Aunt Betty view how things have gone, from bad to worse, and the disinformation and finger-pointing and name calling that's something we all thought could never happen here.
If Uncle Bob(no matter if he's your uncle or not) is for impeachment, the base has truly deserted George.
Only question is who will escort him out of the White House before he burns the world?

Bruce

for so many...at least the ones I know, now know how to get real news and information...so it's just part of the learning and living...I just shake when I realize how close we are to a completely different country.

to look up some info on Tommy Thompson's womanizing. The fact he doesn't live with his wife. He can barely speak english.

He has talked about running, I guess. I can't think of his first name.

Sweetie. :hi:

... and we can only guess how often it is being played out among family members all over the country on a daily basis now.

Thanks for sharing this with us!

father last Monday night that truly surprised me. I had flown in for a long weekend to see my parents.


We have been somewhat distant for over 40 years. In short, they were Repubs that became more and more hateful over the years. I was the only member of my entire extended family that was a Dem and a liberal. In fact I was out of the will for about a decade because of my political affiliation/views. They changed their mind somewhere along the way. I guess because they figured out that I didn't really care.

Anyway, my father was expressing his frustration about the news (tv/newspapers) because he has come to realize that he is not getting the truth. We talked without arguing (for the first time in my adult life) for several hours about domestic and international policies. We were not discussing domestic politics but I had noticed that for the first time in memory there was no picture on the wall of a former or current repub President. Finally my Dad stopped and said "You know, you were right all along. We should have listened to you about the people who run the Republican party. I am sorry - I know it has been difficult for you."

I was dumb struck and just fell completely silent.

The only thing I could think about was all of the missed years ...

I still have not been able to wrap my mind or emotions around it.

long time to be estranged from your family and have them come around in his nineties! Happy for you..seems it took gargantuan bush screw-ups for many republicans to see the light.

I mean, they really hate Cheney. They have now turned against the war and mostly blame "the congress" for going along with those two oil men.

My two siblings, who have always carried the same political views as the rest of the family, have also been changing over the past few years. They have been asking me questions for the first time. They start a conversation with something like "What is the real truth behind ...?" They want to know what I think vs. telling me what they think and what they think they know.

Bottom line - I think they are embarrassed because they have been fooled so many times and for so long. Also, they have all always been so vocal in their beliefs.

Maintaining myself in a neutral position in order to become more involved with my family if they ever awoke has been my personal journey. Many times I thought I had lost it and went off to lick the wounds they did not know they had inflicted. But, I could always find a way to go back for whatever they served up. And then, the conversation with my Dad that I never expected to happen.

There are so many who will never come around so those who do are to be celebrated.

With my family it was a sudden thing. There are still several we are on uneasy terms with. One son is hardest and hurts the most. We get along but we know the divisions are there. His job is the kind that demands loyalty to the government machine, so I don't know how it will all work out.

It was the Right Wing Noise Machine that David Brock wrote about. They have been building it for decades. It has done its job well.

I get mail from Media Matters and do the actions they ask. I take part at Think Progress.

I think it is sad it took so many years. Amazing story of yours.

People are generally pretty decent but it is so hard to get through their perceptions that are built on the crap from the noise machine.

That said, it seems to me the moderate and conservative Repubs are coming to realize they don't know what they thought they knew and feel anger that they have been used. The problem is that now they don't trust anyone or any news. They are truly confused but that means they can be manipulated back again to their rightie roots.

She was taken aback when I told her I wasn't looking for the truth -- I was trying to find the facts. "Everybody seems to know 'the truth'," I told her, "but it's almost impossible to find the facts." I told her about the necessity of reading the foreign press to find out what's going on here, and that I am always on the look for websites that will link me to actual sources and not just talking points. The guy she cited (Dennis someone) rants about liberals and Hillary without stating a single fact, so I read his blog for a week (I promised her I would) and now I'm back in the real world.

She will listen if I let her rant until she runs out of energy before I try to educate her. Like most people, she had no idea of what habeus corpus is, why it is so important and that we don't have it anymore. I then told her the facts: "Bush -- or anyone he appoints, like the 23 year old guy he assigned to monitor NASA science for ideological impurities -- can designate you an 'enemy combatant' for any reason or no reason at all. At that point you lose all rights. You can be picked up anywhere at anytime and taken to GITMO or any of a number of secret prisons around the world. You are not entitled to a lawyer. Your family does not have to be told where you are, or even that you have been arrested. You do not have to be told what you are charged with. You can be held indefinitely without ever being charged with anything. You can be tortured, and whatever you say can be used against you. You can be tried by a military tribunal whose judges are appointed by Bush. You are not entitled to see the evidence against you. Hearsay and statements made during torture can be used in your trial. You have no right to appeal your verdict to a civilian court. You can be executed. -- That is the state of the law today, and that is fact, not opinion."

She was stunned, to say the least. She's still in that 30%, but there's hope. Maybe.

Thank you for writing this!

that your visit with your republican relatives in 2007 has unfolded this way. It's been a long, excruciating journey.

The day that Americans, en masse, start turning away from dittohead, hate radio and start thinking for themselves is the day America starts to heal. Your story made me so hopeful just to hear about two of them..thanks, mad!

We are all very stubborn folks in my family, and it took us a while. I refused to have a one way conversation anymore, and he soon got disgusted and fed up enough to be honest about all of it.

I was so tense before the visit, and it was a relief. We used to be so close, and it had been painful.

That type of experience is very encouraging. My family is right-wing evangelical and I'm afraid they're never going to see through Bush.

I try to keep politics out of family discussions, and we never had a definitive falling out. But it does create a wall.

---

By the way, it might interest you to know that when I took my daughter to Disney World three years ago, I found myself repeatedly referring to the Grand Floridian Hotel as the Mad Floridian.

"By the way, it might interest you to know that when I took my daughter to Disney World three years ago, I found myself repeatedly referring to the Grand Floridian Hotel as the Mad Floridian."

I work in a co-op and we have a distributor called "Regional Access" and I always think of them as "Radical Activist"! That DU gets under your brain cells.

I will just bet everyone around you looked startled when you called the hotel by that name. :hi:

The years since 2000 have changed so many of us. It's good to hear that some people are waking up and coming to their senses.

For others, like me, the years have radicalized us. Before 2000 I was a relatively non-activist Democrat, a suburban soccer mom and wife who worked part-time and volunteered a lot with my childrens' schools.

Since W seized the White House in what I am now convinced was a coup taking over the U.S. government, I have become a Pagan and a vegetarian, recognized that I am a lesbian, divorced my husband, moved into my own apartment, and become highly attuned to the day-to-day behavior of the Republicans and their propaganda machine.

Instead of being a lapsed Episcopalian, I am now a Pagan with an attitude. Instead of a soccer mom and suburban housewife, I'm a lesbian living by myself by choice. Instead of a mindless consumer, I'm highly selective about what I buy, use, and eat.

And I'm teaching my teenage boys by example to be equally thoughtful consumers of both products and ideas.

I'm Karl Rove's worst nightmare. Too bad for him.

Laughed out loud at the lapsed E now P line and frightened my cat. Also the KR worst nightmare reference. I hope you continue to have a great life. Seriously, I can personally tell you that coming out a little later in life has no known draw backs.

Have you suggested your life story to the L Word?

I really like your posts on this thread as well.

The coup freed many people to stand up for things. I am a lapsed Southern Baptist, and now I speak up for things that really matter.

:hi:

High five and a root beer toast! :toast:

I think this is happening in a lot of homes in this country...the people who weren't paying attention are starting to now, and even many of those who were brainwashed into the propaganda see it for what it is. As they wake up they're becoming immune to it, and angry about it. People don't like being lied to and manipulated.

Thankfully, some are regaining their senses.

nation

That said, that is one task facing the next President

I have a feeling a lot of average Repubs are feeling betrayed -- because they have been betrayed. It takes a big person, though, to apologize to an estranged relative and try to make it right. I'm so glad for you and DurhamD that yours are coming around.

How could they have really known before 2000? They believed in their party, as they thought it was. And they fell for a deliberate long-term program of vicious and divisive propaganda.

As a Democrat who reads and thinks, I thought I was fairly well informed. But honest to gods I had NO IDEA what the extreme right wing was up to for the past 30 years. The extreme right wing, both political and religious, were considered the lunatic fringe -- it was inconceivable that they could ever actually take over the government by means of a coup d'etat.

And it was not until I came to DU and obtained a vocabulary that enabled me to start researching these things myself that I could even begin to understand what happened.

I am so glad for you and your family that the truth is dawning on them. If they are at all Internet savvy -- and if you think they are open to it -- you might suggest they do some minimal research by Googling just the two terms "PNAC" and "Christian Reconstructionist/Dominionist." (Let them know those terms will take them to primary sources first.) That's where I started, and one thing led to another and my world has not been the same.

Or not. It sounds like they've come an awful long way already and are following in your footsteps. :hug:

Hekate

I'm not sure of the best resources to use, there's a lot of video and text stuff that might reach them, but I can't point to one that is best. Apart from being as far left as Kucinich (not a selling point for your relatives) he is also a straight talker, middle American, obviously honest and decent person. He appeals, for good reason, to the non-ideological people who just want integrity and competence. Even if he never runs, he shows that the Democratic Party label and agenda is a worthy one.

Because he's so intelligent and charismatic, he's a retired General and NATO commander, he's a lot easier to swallow for former wingnuts. And you're right about him being as liberal, in many ways, as Kucinich. Clark views our military as a mother hen views her chicks. He really feels responsible for every single soldier, and if he had been president after 2004, he would also have cared about, not only OUR soldiers, but the poor Iraqi people who have been so terribly hammered by the neocons, and who have lost so many of their family members, not to mention their entire infrastructure (roads, electricity, water) and their cultural heritage (libraries and museums ransacked under rumsfeld's invasion with the military mercenaries ("privatized" army) .

:kick::kick:

Right on the refridgerator.

This is a lying, theiving, murderous sack of shit, and no self-respecting conservative can abide it.

Sooner or later the radical right will fall, they are already weakening. Politicians come and go, the family remains. I'm glad your estrangement is ending.

My family gets together on holidays. For a while, discussing politics was a favored activity. Every year the arguments would get longer and more heated, but we would end with hugs and "agree to disagree".

About three years ago, the discussion was going to get started, but my grandmother said we should talk about something else. To my surprise, we did. I later learned she had spoke with my folks about the arguments, and said it upset her and ruined our get togethers. She insisted it stopped, and for the last several years has gotten her way. Grandmothers are wise folks.

There's someething so incredibly powerful -- and healing -- to hear that there are some Republicans who don't like the use of wedge issues. And of course reconciliation is healing for EVERYone. Thanks so much for sharing your story with us.

I'm sure I'll stop crying. Eventually. :hi:

...as well as others in this thread.

The thing that strikes me is how hard it is to reconcile the basic decency of individuals with their often hateful political views. And I ascribe it mostly to the barrage of disinformation, and the hiding of facts, that we are constantly subjected to. Thank goodness for the Internet and easy access to other information sources.

Anyway my point is this: all of those people who made the wrong choice and voted for this evil dimwit, were indeed misled. Now you can say, they should have done their research. But the thing is, we should all be able to count on media sources that will tell us the relevant facts and let us draw our own conclusions. And that is far from what we have right now.

But as your relative realized, his political association found him and his family in the same group with the most unethical, rude, and corrupt people.

He's not alone. The problem is regardless whether they are in the majority or minority, they are overshadowed by the folks who are bringing a bad name to the GOP. And they are vocal, monied, and have the ear of mainstream media.

The question is -- those individuals who want to bring real time decency, civility, tolerance, respect and ethics back to GOP, do they want to take it back or depart for another party?

"a Christian, a Southern Baptist, a teacher, very law abiding, careful with money, friendly to neighbors, working with community groups. I guess I considered myself a decent person."

Being a xtian or a s. baptist, or a teacher, or careful with money.. does not necessarily make a person decent.

I know a LOT of very decent people who are not xtian, not baptist, not teachers, not all that careful with money, and who don't work with community groups.

I know a LOT of very UNdecent people who are xtian, baptists, teachers, law-abiding, careful with money, friendly, and who do volunteer work..... and they are also obsessed with money, status, class, and race.

I don't judge anyone. I wrote my thoughts.

Thanks for messing up a thread about healing with a bunch of BS.

There has to be someone step in, take one sentence and turn it into what it was not.

You should be ashamed....you are judging me.

to be rude. Madfloridian never claimed those things to be "necessary" to be a decent person.

If you read the rest of the OP it should be glaringly obvious that madfloridian IS a decent person, as well as articulate as hell.

The Bush Imperial Family are left with almost nothing now but the most easily fooled, the Loyal Bushies.

At this point, ANYONE with a sense of simple human decency HATES Bush, Inc. from Lil' Boots on down.

Nothing but Loyal Bushies left: The Leaders, The heartless ultra-Rich (that is not to say they are all heartless...but only the heartless ones are still Loyal Bushies), the Mouthpieces, The Mean, the Stupid, and those so deeply in denial that they can never admit how badly they were made fools of, The Dead-Enders.

It heartens me and gives me hope to hear such another anecdote. I have seen it myself. The Loyal Bushies have awakend the LOYAL AMERICANS, and like the Loyal Nazis before them, they are going to understand that they have awakened a Sleeping Giant.

I hope that the people who are finally waking up from this nightmare start to see the media propaganda that the media is "liberal", will start to question all of the rest of what they have heard from the media. It has become a weapon of mass distraction, and it needs to be reeled in, and broken up. The Fairness Doctrine HAS to be reinstated, and elections have to again become transparent if we're ever going to fix our Democracy.

And you know what? I really think that some very highly placed people need to be convicted and imprisoned, for this nation to truly heal. Not a half-way measure like what happened with Iran-Contra or Watergate. But a real, true cleansing of fascist and totalitarian elements in our government. Democracy is diametrically opposed to fascism and totalitarianism as a philosophy, and need to be seen as our enemy, domestically.

The congress needs to pass a new law that administrations CANNOT "pardon" members of their own administration for crimes. It opens too many doors for conflicts of interest between the people and their government, and shelters criminals who work in the people's government. Political pardons for government officials sends the message that government can be above the law, and that is the WRONG message to send a Democratic society.

:kick::kick::kick:

I find that many Republicans are willing to actually LISTEN now. For the past few years they answered everything common sense thing that you tried to say with hate radio talking points.

There has been an unending string of criminal acts, scandals, and Constitution busts from this corrupt administration. Most of the Republicans I know are now really disgusted with it all and looking for answers along with the rest of us.

My right-wing boss has been listening to me gently telling him the facts about Abu Ghraib, Gonzales, the Iraq war, election fraud, gay rights, etc. I actually got him to vote for Bob Casey for the senate in PA over Rick Santorum. That was a special moment for me.

Thanks for sharing your story of peace. Our country needs to heal from the disease of Rovian politics.

There isn't much of a brain there worth renting in Bush's head.

if a Thompson or Guiliani, or Hagel ran for the Republicans?

Definitely not. I feel lucky we got as far as we did. It is ingrained in them to vote Republican. They will be working for change.

then the criminals continue to rule

unless they don't vote or donate to pukes for awhile

how are some people so married to their criminal party? they claim to see the light...but it isn't enough to put them over the top? (then how intelligent are they really? i mean, regardless of what they do for a living...a sheep is still a sheep )

i loved your op story

then i read this post--and shook my head in dismay

how frustrating (and sad) (baaaa)

run away from Bush and ask Rs to come back to a "True conservative, restore fiscal integrity, really protect America, respect for the Constitution, blah, blah." So it would be delusional for Dems. to think that we can throw up just about anybody against them and flip red states.

2008 is all about flipping a few red states into our column. Hillary certainly can't do it. Wes Clark is a progressive wolf in military uniform sheep's clothing. Many Republicans who didn't care for Bush, still couldn't vote for Kerry. Clark was the only Dem. they could consider. Clark has had more EXECUTIVE leadership roles than any Senator by virtue of his military commands where he had responsibility for the lives of hundreds of thousands of servicepeople and their dependents--the whole range of housing, education, training, healthcare, social services, sometimes in a dangerous spot. When Clark was Supreme Allied Commander Europe (Eisenhower's last military position), he had "Head-of-State" status, meaning that he dealt directly with prime ministers/presidents, not underlings. And Clark was virtually the only voice urging help for Rwanda. And Clark and Madeleine Albright were the ones who convinced Clinton to take action against the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, where Clark carried out the military action w/o the loss of a single American life. In this he stood up to the Pentagon brass who wanted nothing to do with "saving Albanians." And it was Clark who served for more than 30 years AFTER getting shot up and winning hero medals in Vietnam, when he could have gone for the big bucks in private industry. Try Swift Boating this guy--the smackdown will be heard around the world. Clark is all about duty, honor, country. When Clark's American Dream/American Hero story gets out to middle America, watch how many red states flip. And the beauty of Wes Clark is that HE IS A REAL LIVE D-E-M-O-C-R-A-T, with a progressive agenda equal to anyone.

family voted for the man who stopped stem cell research knowing they had a a grandchild with type 1 diabetes? I can't get past this in my family. to me they betrayed a child they knew. for what? He will suffer years longer now because of 'family' who believe they are family even when they voted against a grandchilds medical needs.

Not as willing to forgive.

Congratulations to your family for the reconciliation!
:applause::applause::applause:

Sonia

It's great to hear eye-witness reports of the pods crumbling and the humans once again emerging.

I'm happy for you that the wounds are healing. Peace.

Here's to hope. :toast:

:kick:

unfortunately, are in your "before" situation and may never get to "after."

but we never became estranged. I just stopped talking politics with them. I don't know what their current political thinking is and I am afraid to bring up politics. As a side note - I think many Republicans supported Bush in the 2000 primaries because they thought he would be more like his father. It will be a long time before the far right gets a candidate elected president.

all of the time. My earliest memories are family gatherings discussing how much everyone hated Pres. Roosevelt - and really, really hated his wife.

If I tried to avoid the discussions they would continually push me - they were always trying to get me to change my views. If I would not concede they all made fun of me or sometimes they would get angry and become really nasty. Many times I had to cut my visits short. I moved clear across the country to get away from their pile on and control the amount of contact. Until now ...

and may God Punish those who did this to our country for their own personal agendas, who
beat the drum of hate throughout the land and have made us less than what we were, may
good people who are truly interested in truth, justice and the american way rule this country once again. And the next time a president says that he swears to protect, defend and uphold the constitution to the best of his ability may it be the truth.

It gives me some hope that maybe, just maybe, the tide is turning. Ca ira. :)