Is the Hip-Hop argument justified in relation to the Imus incident?

I've been a fan of Hip-Hop for years now, but I also realize that recently the genre has become very watered-down, regurgitated, and frankly unoriginal. So don't take this to mean that I'm just upset over what people are saying about it...because a lot of times, I agree. But I have to wonder why a lot of Imus's defenders are using the "Rap card" as an excuse for what Imus has said? Hip-Hop should not come up in this discussion because Imus was neither a rapper OR any kind of entertainment celebrity. He is (or was) a radio show shock jock.

I notice people are also blaming the rappers as if they market themselves. If you want to blame anybody for the way Hip-Hop is...you need to look to music executives and their advertisers (the people who are usually over-looked and not held accountable). THESE are the people making the REAL money of off rap music...what the artists get is comparable to chump change most of the time. It's this same corporate mindset that controls the radio's, the music channels like MTV and VH1, and the whole shabang. So go against THEM, and stop blaming it on the rappers!!

should be denounced.

I have never understood this. The "artist" is allowed to say whatever they want, no matter how nasty, but if I denounce it somehow *I'm* the bad guy? If I say they shouldn't say what they did, I'm a "censor"? What about my free speech to say they are sexist bigots?

Besides, I've never heard of a rapper call someone a 'nappy headed ho'. I think rap music could stand to be cleaned up, but to compare it to Imus is ludicrous.

Or ODB (R.I.P.), just to give you two examples?

the difference is that Imus can easily be scapegoated by the media, whereas they choose to ignore the far-more harmful stuff that pollutes our KIDS' minds. I doubt many teenagers even know who Imus is. Lets get real.

but if you'll notice, Joe Loserman, McCain, Tim Russert, Tweety, David Gregory, Chris Dodd, John Kerry, Carville and Begala, and other members of the beltway "elite" aren't validating rappers comments by appearing on the same stage with them. They are validating Imus's comments by regularly appearing on his show. Not one of these spineless creeps had the balls to tell imus that his remarks were inappropriate although I'd venture to say many of them inwardly cringed at them.

So no I don't think that argument is valid at all - the rappers do not have the cachet that Imus did and aren't in the same position to influence public discourse.

"The rappers do not have the cachet that Imus did and aren't in the same position to influence public discourse."

Well, last time I checked my neighbor's 16-year-old son wasn't watching Imus. But he was listening to rap. I think that there is a generational component to this whole thing. We can talk about Imus' supposed influence because of politicians, etc., all we want, but it is dangerous - and I really think that - to underestimate what musical influence brings to a culture. Just look at the 60s for a lesson in music awakening, or at least travelling in tandem with, a societal sea change.

Just my two cents.

from the Rethug's own sins, especially when it comes from CNN and Fox. MSNBC got its house in order--the other news media should do the same before trying to barge into someone else's.

:headbang:
rocknation

Any glorification of the twisted values that are destroying our inner cities should be denounced.

Our inner cities are not being destroyed by pimps and ho's. But I get your point, I just don't like how the Rap card is being pulled and used by Imus defenders almost to give blanket justification for what he said. As if to say, if you don't go after rappers...then you can't go after Imus.

White guys bitching that they can't say "nigger" like that 50 Cent fella.

and other blacks like yours truly are against gangsta rap?

that the "furor" over misogynistic lyrics in rap music all of a sudden became a national concern when it was used as a cover for WHITE pundits to defend their master Imus?

in their music.

as long as you include Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Jerry Lee Lewis, Jimi Hendrix and many, many more musicians in that mix

When did Jagger, Richards or Hendrix call women 'Hos'?

Again, just asking.

I was around then and don't remember them ever calling women that.

demeaning.

A ballplayer, or any athlete who demeans women is demeaning women.

A politican, a musician, a talk host.

Slang used as weapons against others suggests to me the impulse to control said others, to belittle them, to marginalize them. And the themes are very often racist or sexist and seem largely directed at ethnic minorities, sexual minorities, and women. Sometimes at all 3 at once.

I don't see how such language can be defended, no matter whose mouth it comes out of, when its intent is to demean and/or control.

Person B or Person C.

Where does it get us to condone their degradation?

I fully side with the feminists in this one.

I basically agree except I am POed about the seeming selectivity of this whole thing. Imus was very, very wrong the way he whipped off that amazing insult to those Rutgers women. But too many others are getting a pass or aren't even mentioned and they have been doing the same or worse. Imus is being scapegoated in this media frenzy when the others are just getting off scot free.

a while someone on the blogs will post something he has said on the air.

So I'm aware of him that way.

I thought the public comments by the Rutgers women's basketball team's coach were outstanding. I think that woman should consider a run for public office. Really. She was right on target with this, start to finish. At least it seemed that way to me.

I listened to Imus once or twice. He mumbles a lot, too much for me..

of that cowboy hat.

The coach. I'm serious. I want people like that in public service and in positions of influence. She's in that now, and likely she's invaluable to Rutgers. But maybe she could be persuaded to run for the U.S. Congress.

The coach probably will run for something. The politicans have seen how well she does on her feet and will ask her to run.

as well as articulate :dilemma:

for Ms. Stringer was genuine and deeply-felt.

"Articulate" doesn't belong to anybody. It predates us all and is a powerful attribute of character in an age when George W. Bush can't put 2 sentences together.

which has been going on a long time. The rappers are making plenty on that trash along with the music execs.

I am not trying to excuse Imus. What he said was totally inappropriate, racist, sexist, and cruel.

However, for a long time rap music has had demeaning and sexist language.

I teach at a mostly black high school. I see high school students refering to women as "ho's" on almost a daily basis. They didn't get this from Imus. And the words bitch and motherfucker are common among males and females too.

I believe I heard that Al Sharpton is now going to go against this in rap music. Good for him. And I doubt if it is because Al Sharpton is standing up for Imus or trying to make this as an excuse for Imus.

Fact is, this sort of language IS demeaning to women. You could make a case for blacks using the word "nigger" amongst themselves has a different meaning than when whites use the same word. However you cannot use this argument for a black male calling a black female a "ho" or a "bitch" since males and females are not the same sex.

If there is going to be some good come of the Imus thing, perhaps we as a culture can examine ourselves for instances of racism or sexism. Not as an excuse for Imus, but as the first step...awareness....towards righting the wrongs of our society instead of trying to pretend they do not exist.

See we're in agreement. I think Rap music is in dire need of a new image...a makeover of sorts. It's become too commercialized and needs to get back to its roots...go back to basics.

I don't think that discussing this issue as if there is parity of power between white men - Imus' demographic - and black rappers makes sense. Rappers have a cultural impact, but it is not they writing the laws, setting the prices, building a vast prison state, waging war around the world, exploiting the third world's resources, busting unions, controlling our credit, our wages, our energy, our airwaves. Who is it making sure that something like one in four black men are cycling through jail/prison? And an increasing number of black women?

Who has the greater power to make real the implicit threat in degrading language? Who can put you in jail or deny you an apartment, crdit for a house or a car, a job?

I'm a feminist, I object to the degrading objectification of women in music as well as anywhere else. But I think that we white men and women had best attend to the institutionalized racism and white privlege that benefits us - the beam in our own eyes - before digging for the mote in the eyes of our black brothers and sisters.

edit for "we" and "our"

AND WHO are the majority consumers? Just asking. :shrug:

Imus was supposedly a newscaster in that he had tons of political folks on his show discussing the issues of the day.

Rap artists are just that artists. Artists have a certain license to offend anyone & everyone.

It's comparing apples to oranges.

Personally, I abhor all hate speech no matter who spouts it and to whom it is directed. I think the rush to compare Imus to rap artists is a smoke screen for avoiding the real issue - the hate filled rhetoric that has been directed by so many on the far right toward minorities, homosexuals, liberals, etc. They again have hijacked a discussion to keep us from looking at the real problem.

As much as I think Imus was worse than a fool for spewing that crap, I've heard just as much crap (worse actually) from the likes of Limbaugh, Coulter, Savage....well, you know who they are...They have gotten a free pass for way too long.


eom

Sorry!

Is a shcok jock radio host that only recently has been taken "seriously" by people like Howard Fineman, Jonathan Alter, etc..That may give him an air of credibilty to some, but he is nothing more than highbrow Stern with a few high name political commentators.

Imus is NOT and never has been a newscast. Loofah O'Reilly is more of a newscaster than Imus ever was.

Imus was and is entertainment and should be viewed as such....It is apples to apples..The apples are just a different color.

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/hiphop/

Music executives are selling the rap music that white teenagers want to buy.

Watch the documentary and make sure that watch the last ten minutes.

Thanx, 1932.

Not only that, those girls are among the best student-athletes from one of the best schools in the country.

Hip-hop and rap artists generally don't randomly pick out someone from the daily news and insult them.

though they do refer to having sex with a certain female artist and a certain actress by name in certain songs. If I were one of those two women I would be POed.

So now the hip-hop guys are on the air across America every morning in national syndication. They have Staples sponsoring them.


And Imus is either serving hard time (5-10 years) or has been shot dead after that incident when he threatened his nanny with a gun two years ago.



When you switch these cases you can easily see they are not equivalent.

...should be examined, and these artists and personalities should be held accountable. This goes beyond Don Imus. This is a larger and bigger problem. Imus simply was the fall guy. We need to make sure we don't move past this without having a national discussion about racism and sexism in our television, radio, and music. If we don't have that conversation, it'll be clear Imus was made example of and the problem will continue to be ignored.

That's why it came up at all,because we can't have a white racist paraded around on tv without reminding everyone that whites aren't the only one who are racist.The statement is correct,but it's being used as cover so white people wont have think too deeply about their own possible racism.Now,all the people who support Imus can say,"See? I don't have to feel bad because they do it too."

In the context of the Imus story it has no relevance at all.Pure cover fire and a sadly successful attempt at diversion.

Market forces prevailed in the Imus case. It also looks to me like some rappers are going to have to cool their jets. About time.

I don't think any era will ever match the early 90's in terms of the hip-hop genre.

Again, JMO.

Some of you have some clue of what you're talking about, but not many.

It is true that the major music labels saw dollar signs in gangster rap and rode that train all the way to the bank, but for some to suggest that it is that way because thats what the white kids want to hear is ridiculous. Its not like black kids don't buy or listen to rap music. White kids latched on, and do spend millions upon millions of dollars on it, but the music is still driven by black culture. it's been hijacked and exploited by record companies--absolutely--but to try to skirt the issue by putting the blame on white teenagers is extremely narrow-minded.

If this is something the black community wants to get serious about and change it is in their hands to do so, and noone else's. There is a thriving world of underground hip-hop which is intelligent, responsible, and genuinely artistic, and black kids and white kids alike tend to migrate towards that stuff when they get tired of the gangster crap. But the "gangster" image is one that will continue to sell until it is universally dismissed by black culture, especially black youth culture. White teenagers can't make this change happen, but they can (and will) follow whatever trend is set by the black community.

And besides, white kids are all about emo now anyway ;)

In my opinion, the foundation of the major record labels is already crumbling. The internet has brought independant and underground hip-hop artists more exposure than they've ever had before, and more serious music listeners are rejecting the spoon-fed assembly-line gangster crap. The last nail can be put into the coffin very easily. I reject the idea that these rap artists are being forced to use this sort of language by the record companies-- if you're willing to sell out your artistic integrity that easily you're just part of the problem. Artists standing up for change, and listeners demanding that change is what will turn things around. It could be done. Hopefully with people like Obama coming out and hitting the right notes on the subject it will.

It was rapper rage.

Why is this not Don Imus playing the rapper card?

Why does white America always deny racism. Every single time.

Like rappers, Imus is an entertainer. If you are going to blame the rap promoters, that is like blamking CBS and MSNBC for Imus' comments. Either the one who said it is to blame or not. Like Imus, rappers can choose not to use offensive language.

"Hip-Hop should not come up in this discussion because Imus was neither a rapper OR any kind of entertainment celebrity. He is (or was) a radio show shock jock." -- A 'radio show shock jock' is an entertainment celebrity.

Imus had a lot of politicians and so called journalists come on his show. Once this remark was made and activists pressured sponsors and became vocal, it was clear the pundits would not want to be associated with him. Also, he's been doing this for years and had powerful people go on his show (the same politicians that frequently self righteously attacked rap music). The sponsors left as well and prominent black people at the station (like Roker) also called for him to leave. That pretty much killed his show. Part of the problem lies with talk radio itself - being a discussion of the day's news, but often time serving as an outlet for extreme views.

Rap is considered entertainment (I don't care for it myself) and for that reason few may consider it seriously as a form of dialog. Also, it is already considered a pariah for the politicians. You won't see presidential candidates talking to rap artists. You do see them going and talking to Imus and Rush Limbaugh.

Also, most rap stations are regional - I doubt certain areas will really have any have any rap stations. Imus, was broadcast nationally by CBS I believe (but I could be wrong).

Imus was entertainment wrapped in a package of legitimacy. Imus has been ranting and raving against everyone he dislikes for 35 years. He often said crude things. People laughed. It was entertaining.

A few years ago, his status was so "iconic" that legitimate newscasters would call in and have frank discussions about the topic at hand. Just because Harold Fineman or Chuck Schumer make a 5-10 minute radio appearance on Imus does not a legitimate news show make.

Imus was simply an obnoxious old fart that gets off offending folks. He has been doing it for years and it is viewed as entertainment...Just like Opie and Anthony and Stern.

People didn't tune in to Imus to catch "the news", but rather to watch someone make fun of the news in a crass obnoxious way.

As far as politicians not speaking with rap stars, I think that you'll see a day when someone like Obama would certainly meet with some of the tamer rap stars for a dialogue...Y'know, the ones that don't advocate cop-killing and bitches and ho's...

and the culture than Don Imus. You can throw elephant shit on a picture of the Pope and call it art, but that doesn't make it so.

You may have freedom of speech, but responsibility also comes with that freedom. Am I for censorship? No. Do I believe in groups rights to protest rap music for it's vile messages of hate and degradation? Yes. That's not censorship. That's democracy.

the women on the team - no one else


rappers rap on women in general, no one woman specifically.

that's a big difference.

Imus spoke of the team women as black whores

rappers speak of women as sex objects

The artists make tons of money, compared to average citizens. Of course they don't make what the corp execs do. Imus didn't, either. No one makes more than the corp execs who produce and market shows and music.

If they get famous enough, or make the co. enough money, the artists get paid more. Ask Brittany Spears.

But yes, the artists are mainly responsible for the words they utter. Not someone else, because they bankroll it or market it, although those people are responsible, too.

EAch of us is ultimately accountable for what we say. No one else.

And Snoop is interviewing Senators and media elites on his MSNBC show, then I think they may have a point.

as Imus. \