How did the Imus thing turn into a story about policing BLACK language?

Although I would definitely prefer hip hop to be more about politics than about sex and violence, I'm flabbergasted that Imus is now off the hook and this has been turned into a story about how black people need to clean up their acts (which is like saying Imus was right about black people, and the poor guy is being punished for it).

I imagine that right wing think tanks came up with this strategy and the media is playing along.

at turning the issue around and placing it on someone else....Propaganda my friend...they blame rap music, but they don't mention Rock (which I love by the way), strippers, Pedophile Preachers and the list goes on..

Al Roker released a statement too but the idiots on the right are flipping out over Sharpton and Jackson.

before they decide which way to go?

Please explain to me how 30 years of daily filth out of Imus' mouth doesn't matter - but one honest mistake by Al Sharpton, and one racial slur by Jackson, is of monumental importance.

How can people allow themselves to be manipulated by the right wing so easily. All they have to do is yell "Tawanaaa", and the liberals duck for cover. Pathetic.

that was about 20 years ago and there seems no pattern of that language or anti-semitism. I loved Sharpton's 2004 convention speech - and am glad Kerry did not exclude him when Kerry gave each of his primary opponents a chance to speak.

However, Twana Brawley was not just "an honest mistake". Had he joined the initial outrage and backed away when it became abundantly clear that she was lying, I would agree, but he acted as a demogogue and still has not appologized to the white official who was accused of this horrendous crime that never happened.

In an odd way, he also victimized Ms Brawley. The case was under investigation when he and Maddox entered the case. If I remember right, there was no reason to think that her claim was not taken seriously. Had they stayed out, this girl who concocted this story because she thought it would let her avoid trouble at home because of staying out all time would not have everyone of a certain age immediately associating her name with this episode.

If anything, it is amazing how forgiven Sharpton is. He was allowed to participate in the 2004 debates as a candidate and was alowed to speak at the convention. That says something.

by making a big deal about the way hip hop artists talk.

Because I'm not sure the constant use of profanity, if that is what you mean, is actually "black language"...

Does Maya Angelou speak "black language", for example?

What did you see when the did this story?

posited by Jesse Jackson at some point recently.

This will either go somewhere, or nowhere, and I predict the latter. The new distraction will smush the old one.

Did rap music cause this?

... the trail of tears commemorative site also add much to the conversation

Like old white farts like Imus never had a racist and misogynist thought in their lives before rap came along. :eyes: Hip hop culture may have given him a "hip" new way to express it but it sure as shit didn't originate there.

Count on at least one of those gasbags to pull that one out of their repertoire in the upcoming days.

n/t

...the wing nuts are saying that Liberals conspired to let Imus fall on his sword just so that we could launch a crusade against Limbaugh, et al.

Uh, anyone with evidence that the corporate media has uttered a single post-Imus word against Limbaugh and his ilk, please speak up...

(cue the crickets)

:eyes:

and not one of them was gangsta rap. This is just old fashioned racism trying to deflect criticism of a white guy who was totally in the wrong.

Because he isn't the only one who says foul things. Once we go down that path, it has to be applied evenly. Otherwise, what are we left with?

who thought his nasty remarks on public airwaves were approaching the "yelling fire in a crowded theatre" standard yanked their support.

The government did not police his speech. That is the standard.

His sponsors were forced to move after the public outcry. The policing was done by many in the public, screaming for the guy's head.

I don't think so.

The main point is that this isn't GOVERNMENT censorship.

OK. It was mob rule under the guise of morality. Problem is, where does it end?

became that it wasn't really the words. it was who said them.

nt

They've been dropping subtle hints for a while about their displeasure with Rap, so it's actually been up their sleeve, but the Imus situation created the perfect opportunity to spring it as a campaign.

Future push poll call:

Good morning, mam. Would you cast your vote for a pot-smoking, half black man running for president with the middle name Hussein who was raised a radical Muslim?

It's all about race, baby.

They wingnuts are just getting warmed up for the show.

Gobama.

What Imus said was a dumb comment from a guy who says dumb things every day to get laughs. It was nothing in comparison to what is commonly heard (and expected) in other quarters. That's why.

is a serious issue.

Imus is probably one of the top 50 opinion formers in the US. He mediates people's understanding of the facts of life in the US.

Imus is not a news source, he is an entertainer. A deadpan comedian. If people are getting their news from Imus, then we have bigger problems than language usage.

In any event, how on earth could we police language based on the importance of the person using it?

There is a reason, in my opinion, why this road is less traveled.

Newsweek put Imus on their cover for a story about the 20 best new places to get your news.

Imus got a lot of time on the radio and TV weekday mornings to frame news stories for mass consumption.

Howard Stern spends about 90% of his time framing people's understanding of popular culture and 10% of his time framing political issues. Imus spent 100% of his time framing people's understanding of political issues.

'Imus spent 100% of his time framing people's understanding of political issues.'

Imus's show was not 100% about framing political issues. Let's keep in mind that this whole flap arose because he was making dumb comments while the other guy was reading the sports. The show was funny. That's why I always watched. If I wanted news, I would have turned to CNN.

Sounds to me like part of this was an attempt by some to make Imus seem more important and more serious than he was. After all, if he is just a radio/TV comedian, then why all the fuss?

What else did he talk about?

Talking about politics is not the same as framing someone's understanding of political issues. That's The show was a funny, irreverent take on whatever was going on. That included politics a lot of the time.

You think that's funny and irreverant? You don't think that's trying to frame people's perceptions of a Republican running for president?

http://mediamatters.org/items/200702070011

as are some of your other posts. Thank you.

They can make the stretch and say the controversy is about "black language" because Imus probably learned the phrase-or at least it originated from a segment of mass pop culture that the media makes millions off of- and happens to be mostly black: rappers.

Of course, much media also tends to present all black folks as either rappers or atheletes- not much in between. So it's easier for them to present it as general "black language" when it is really more just a hip-hop culture thing.

I'm not saying rappers themselves get the blame for Imus talking about women like he was a rapper- I'm just saying this is how the media can make the argument seem viable.

And half of DU played right along. I cannot friggin' believe it. The chance to make this about the filth that comes out of the mouths of these hate radio assholes - and we let ourselves be spun again.

Instead of staying on the topic of Imus, half the people jumped on board the wrong band wagon, when they should've just waved it by. It's unreal how some people will take a negative (the Imus controversy), and instead of turning it into a positive for us by using it as a possible springboard to address other hate-radio broadcasters, they turn it into a negative for us by going after a group of people who aren't really our enemy...artists. Figure that.

This isn't about spin.

Sounds to me like you were hoping to keep this debate framed the way you liked it.

Well no friggin' duh. What the hell have we been bitching about for 6 friggin' years!!!!

The logical next step in this mess does not involve honesty in the media. Its going to be about who can use what language and when.

JIM DAVENPORT
Associated Press

<COLUMBIA, S.C. - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama on Friday questioned the way some rappers talk about women in songs, saying the lyrics are similar to the derogatory language used by fired radio talk show host Don Imus.

"We've got to admit to ourselves, that it was not the first time that we heard the word 'ho,' Obama told a crowd of about 1,200 at a fundraising dinner for the South Carolina Legislative Black Caucus in Columbia. "Turn on the radio station. There are a whole lot of songs that use the same language ... we've been permitting it in our homes, and in our schools and on iPods."

"If it's not good for Don Imus, I don't know why it's good for us. If we don't like other people to degrade us, why are we degrading ourselves?" Obama said to applause.>

<..."I think that all of us have become a little complicit in this kind of relaxed attitude toward some pretty offensive things," Obama said. "And I hope this prompts some self-reflection on the part of all of us.">
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/local/17075630.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3215341

Because Obama decided to take it there. :shrug:

Poor tactics on his part, just like his announcement that Dems would back down on Iraq funding.

First of all, since white America showed their ugly racist side again, Obama was left without a lot of choices.

Second of all, you have go consider the remarks in context of his audience. The black community wants to address the vulgarity in some parts of black culture. Good for them. They're doing a better job than white culture who want to idolize our vulgar hate radio assholes.

one at CBS Radio and another at MSNBC cable television.

New York TIMES columnist Bob Herbert speaks for me:

* * *

"Not only is the society still permeated by racism and sexism and the stereotypes they spawn, but we have allowed a debased and profoundly immature culture to emerge in which the coarsest, most socially destructive images and langauge are an integral part of the everyday discourse.

---

Imus, Snoop Dogg, Michael Savage -- it doesn't matter where the bigotry is coming from. What's important is to find the integrity and the strength to see it for what it is -- a loathsome, soul-destroying disease -- and then to respond accordingly."

--Bob Herbert, NYTimes, April 16, 2007

* * *

Again: Bob Herbert speaks for me.

by shifting the focus to, "but aren't black people just as guilty?"

It's like the argument is that a bunch of black people should lose their jobs too or that Imus is a victim of something that black people started.

indisputable, and so is the reason why. He picked on a group of women and demeaned their womanhood and their race and their citizenship, all in one fell swoop. He was canned. And properly so.

Herbert, Maya Angelou, and others argue that words that demean and denigrate and lessen are destructive in and of themselves, whether they spew from white talk hosts or black rap musicians. It isn't a matter of putting given phrases on a scale to determine which is most or least offensive owing to context. The context is itself second to the words used as captions to define it.

Those young women at Rutgers were champions. Tennesseee defeated them in a basketball game for the trophy, but in every other respect, they were champions. Imus pretended that they were not champions, that they were not their classmates' friends, that they were not their parents' children. And that they were not my fellow citizens.

He had no right to do that.

It used the Imus story as a segue to a criticism of hip hop. Hip hop is a legitimate issue for criticism. In fact, there's a great documentary I saw recently that does exactly that: Hip Hop-Beyond Beats and Rhymes. It makes a very sophisticated and compelling argument about why there is sexist and violent language in hip hop. My local news does not come within a mile of touching on the serious issues about why the marketplace drives those elements of hip hop. My local news presented a story that implied that Imus wasn't doing anything that black people don't do and that Imus is almost a victim of these currents in popular culture. I seriously don't think that that's a very fruitful, honest or intelligent angle on the Imus issue.

and Maya Angelou have the big-picture, bird's eye view on this caper.

Imus is incidental to the degree of harm his words caused to young women -- young women specifically on the Rutgers team and young women anyplace who very likely would not care to be reduced to a sexual "appliance," as one writer put it on the rap sites on the web.

The man lost his job. Two of them. Sexism and racism live on, but the good fight was fought in this instance. I thought Coach Stringer was quite impressive and wouldn't mind hearing more from her on this subject. Whatever they're paying her at Rutgers is less than she deserves. I have a hunch her players would agree.

Had Imus been excused, the question would linger about the coarsening of the culture by destructive language. With Imus fired, the fight goes on against language which subtracts from the dignity of women and minorities. That seems to me to be a desirable and logical outcome of this Imus controversy.

of this issue much more effectively than Herbert and Angelou.

Herbert and Angelou might have more access to elite opinion in the US. However, around the water cooler today, I'll bet you'll find way more Americans thinking black people who like hip hop are as guilty or more guilty than Imus, and that maybe a lot of them should pay the price too...which is a f'd up way to think about this issue. There's a lot more discussion about the nihilism and crassness of the mainstream sources for news that we need to have before we start talking about why the marketplace demands racism and sexism from black artists.

In my opinion.

Herbert and Angelou are not "elitists" in the cultural use of that term.

They very often speak for those without voices, in fact, who don't even have the poortunity to chat around a water cooler.

I think you're off base with those two in a big way.

The words are the point, and the words were hurtful to those young women.

Had they come from a rap musician's lips, they would be as hurtful. And in fact, they often do.

That's the point.

I don't recognize a response to my argument in your post. I don't think words aren't the issue. I think you're misunderstanding my point.

First, I believe you should write to your local news station and complain about what you feel constituted poor coverage of a story.

Next I think you should stop watching local news. I don't like mine much either. Local news is awfully local, as they say.

We're better and more expansive and inclusive when we shoot higher, and Bob Herbert and Maya Angelou -- and others -- are more panoramic. We learn from them. Local coverage doesn't cut it because it's teensy-weensy, and the issues are global in scope. Local news doesn't have the talent or the bucks to deliver a big-picture account of much of anything.

But, anyway, FYI, I think writing about it at DU has equivalent impact, and I can sustain the argument here, which has advantages over writing to the station (which is not to concede that I haven't already written the station).

I don't watch local news that much. I happened to catch it last night. But I know that a lot of other people do, so I think it's worth discussing. And I guarantee you that the next 100 people I see today, many more will have watched their local news than have read Herbert and Angelou.

remarks were featured in an exclusive interview on CBS Evening News on Sunday.

I can't force your local citizenry into reading Herbert or listening to Angelou, but they're definitely missing some of the brightest souls of our era by tuning them out. Kick their sorry butts for me, would ya?

As for this morning, policy makers in DC were likely to have seen this column by E. J. Dionne:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/16/AR2007041601410.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

on the same subject.

The story is gone. The war critic was silenced and you are left debating wether or not to support censorship. The networks plant the seed and move on to fan the next media frenzy.
See a pattern yet?

backpedaling after spending a couple years pimping for the WH and who now has to face the fact that the people he lied to now are angry about the lies.

Imus pimped for Republicans and the WH just like everyone else, and like everyone else who did that, he's now saying he was wrong.

Yesterday I listened to an ex-marine white kid who interned in a Republican Senator's office and who once went to a Michael Moore event to shout him down say that he thinks Bush lied to him. He's on sounder rhetorical footing than Imus, however, since he's not saying this to pander to an audience 78% of whom he knows are pissed off at the people he lauded 4 years ago.

Its better to have the soapbox then to shout it in your closet. Looks like we lost another outlet. How are you going to get that message into the middle right now? Convert someone form ClearChannel? Good luck

Nobody likes it. No Republican candidate is going to run as someone who will carry on the Bush policies. Imus was just greasing the skids to say, "and if you agree with my criticism of Iraq, then you agree with {fill in the blank with Republican candidate}"

Too much money being made. Somehow they will redefine and expand it.

But, if that's what this argument is down to, then let's put this sidebar discussion on hold and talk again in 20 months.

This topic has a lot of subgroups. I am only watching this one. So I'll put it on my calander, 20 months then :)

And thanks for the Bob Herbert excerpt, I somehow missed that in the brouhaha. My estimation of Herbert just notched up a bit. (it was pretty high already)

I came late to Bob Herbert but friends near DC INSISTED I check him out.

He has been forceful against Bush from the very start of this Iraq disaster, and some of the columns have just sizzled. I'm lately a true fan!

I hope you are doing well and aligned with the good planets these days. It won't be too long before Mr. Bush is tossed in History's dustbin and a Democrat sits in the White House!

We're only talking about Snoop.

How do white people always miss the friggin' obvious.

rebounding in another direction to hit either women or blacks

Immortal Technique.

"But the other team looks very nice, the all or mostly white Tennessee team.

Imus did *not* get off the hook, he lost his job.

And it's not true that "this has turned into a story about how black people need to clean up their acts" - there is still far more being said about Imus than about gangster rappers.

What Imus said was far, far less offensive than many things many gangster rappers say without most people raising an eyebrow.

I think that news broadcasters should be held to a far higher standard of civility than musicians, but even so the double standard is striking.