Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

what would you do about illegal immigration/immigrants

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 03:51 PM
Original message
Poll question: what would you do about illegal immigration/immigrants
i have stated on a previous post what i would do, but i am interested in hearing what others would do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Have the illegals arrested and discourage companies from encouraging illegal behavior,
Edited on Sat May-19-07 03:59 PM by HypnoToad
such as hiring illegal aliens.

Why do we reward criminals?

And reform things so we can have a living wage that makes the wages everyone wants to pay tolerable; as the cost of living in countries we offshore even our underwear to think those wages are wealth beyond the dreams of avarice. (I don't hear anyone from India complaining... they were jubilant when Bush was re-elected in 2004.... I wanted to find the rather longer zdnet article, but the included one will have to do.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
datahead Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. I think we need to remember where we came from!
Unless you are an American Indian, we all came from other countries. And I'm not going to get into what we did to them.

Living in Southern Ca.(San Diego) I see allot of hard working people (Illegal Immigrants) that have been here for twenty, thirty years. They have been caught up in the bureaucratic B.S. of immigration reform for years trying to become legal citizens of this country. Only to hit a brick wall.
Their children, and grandchildren were born here, and over all are respectable members of the community. All illegal immigrants are not criminals, maids, house cleaners, and fruit pickers. And overall these people are good people.
It really burns my butt when I hear people say we should just throw them all out. What if that was the case a hundred years ago when the Irish and Italian's were coming into this country. Maybe we should all read what is on the statue of liberty, and pause to think about where we all came from.

This is just my stupid opinion, but I think get off our high horse here and think about where we came from.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
datahead Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. I think we need to remember where we came from!
Unless you are an American Indian, we all came from other countries. And I'm not going to get into what we did to them.

Living in Southern Ca.(San Diego) I see allot of hard working people (Illegal Immigrants) that have been here for twenty, thirty years. They have been caught up in the bureaucratic B.S. of immigration reform for years trying to become legal citizens of this country. Only to hit a brick wall.
Their children, and grandchildren were born here, and over all are respectable members of the community. All illegal immigrants are not criminals, maids, house cleaners, and fruit pickers. And overall these people are good people.
It really burns my butt when I hear people say we should just throw them all out. What if that was the case a hundred years ago when the Irish and Italian's were coming into this country. Maybe we should all read what is on the statue of liberty, and pause to think about where we all came from.

This is just my stupid opinion, but I think get off our high horse here and think about where we came from.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jcrew2001 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. I think if an illegal gets arrested, he'll likely be deported or
reported to Immigration. That's why the illegals avoid the police.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
76. I'm stunned at how often you're right!!
Does that get boring after a while?

At any rate, when you're right you're right. And you are in this instance!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bobbieo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. The reason illegals are here is because Americans are hiring them
and it has been this way since the end of WW2. Until American employers
are treated as the perps in the illegal immigration trade, the illegals will keep flocking across the border. We Americans are the ones to blame for this whole mess!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Build the wall, close the borders, deport illegal aliens, arrest employers..........
who hire illegal aliens, etc. The Mexican people need to fix their own corrupt broken country, just like Americans need to fix our own corrupt broken country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
22. how do you plan on
deporting 12 million or so illegal aliens?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. One at a time.
How about we catch them, transport them to their contries of origin, and take measures to improve our defenses against future illegal intrusion? It's not complicated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. ok lets start here
if we were to seal our borders tomorrow and no addition illegal immigrants came in it would take the removal of 33,000 illegals per day every day for 365 days to remove 12 million immigrants. the logistics on that are incredible. care to lay out any details on how you can remove that many people every day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. That would be hard to do.
Looks like it would take about 10 years. Do you think we could remove 3,300 a day on average? I do. My point is, it is not impossible.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. So, you enjoy short order cooking
for 2 bucks an hour, eh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 03:34 AM
Response to Reply #45
55. Amazing how restaurants manage to survive in areas where few or no illegals reside today.
Wonder how they do that? Because as everyone knows these businesses can't survive without cheap labor from illegal aliens who are only doing the jobs that Americans won't do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #45
81. generations of laborers fought in this country
so that short order cooks could make at least 5.15 an hour. and Illegal immigrants take that all away...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. I don't.
I would plan on legalising the presence of a large proportion of that number. Of the remainder, whom I would advocate deporting, many will have registered their presence by lodging formal applications.

A significant number, disproportionately those who know that their applications would be turned down for one reason or another, and hence disproportionately criminals and the like, wouldn't apply at all, so it would be far from a perfect solution, but it would be a big step in the right direction.

And as the community of illegal immigrants grew much smaller, and it became the case that the odds of a given illegal immigrant being a criminal or someone else who for some solid reason would have an immigration application turned down were increasingly high, it would become much easier to locate and deport the remainder.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. I don't.
I would plan on legalising the presence of a large proportion of that number. Of the remainder, whom I would advocate deporting, many will have registered their presence by lodging formal applications.

A significant number, disproportionately those who know that their applications would be turned down for one reason or another, and hence disproportionately criminals and the like, wouldn't apply at all, so it would be far from a perfect solution, but it would be a big step in the right direction.

And as the community of illegal immigrants grew much smaller, and it became the case that the odds of a given illegal immigrant being a criminal or someone else who for some solid reason would have an immigration application turned down were increasingly high, it would become much easier to locate and deport the remainder.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. I'd put 'arresting the employers' at the front of the list
Employer prosecution will make more difference than anything else, though closing the borders is a good idea as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. 1) Shut down illegal hiring, fine the companies (or more)
Find a way for businesses - particularly small businesses - to easily determine someone's citizenship / immigration status. (not sure I like where that leads, but there it is.) Then enforce the laws against hiring undocumented aliens.

If people can't work here, they won't come.

2) Fix the current guest worker programs; evaluate whether quotas should be increased, and if so, increase them.

3) Fix the broken process for rounding up and actually deporting illegals, and make sure the process treats people humanely, before they start trying to round up any more illegals. That will take quite awhile. If they've done 1 and 2, by the time they get the process of detention and deportation fixed, there will be a lot fewer "illegals" to worry about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Yes
Fix 1 & 2, and it may never be necessary to round anyone up. A few thousand, or even a few hundred thousand illegal immigrants, is a much smaller problem than 12-20 million. A small number has little wage-suppressing effect. 12-20 million has a huge wage-suppressing effect.

Amnesty is acceptable for a few thousand illegal immigrants. But it's not acceptable for 12-20 million.

And granting Z-visas immediately to all 12-20 million illegal immigrants is amnesty, even if they can't become citizens immediately. The Z-visas grant immediate legal status to all 12-20 million illegal immigrants already here. With Z-visas, all 12-20 million can legally work in the U.S., and employers can legally hire them.

How anyone could claim this is not amnesty is beyond reason. If they can legally remain here, that's amnesty. And that's exactly what the latest "Comprehensive" Immigration Bill calls for.

Economic Populist Forum
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
primative1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. LoL ...
Edited on Sat May-19-07 07:46 PM by primative1
I stopped reading the bill details after the z visa part. That is the end of the story IMO. Who in the hell is going to bother jumping the hoops the pols spent a year working out to set up for citizenship afterward? Its obviously worthless manuevering by the pols, I wouldnt pay 5 grand when a z visa entitles you to whatever there is here to offer and I doubt anyone else will either.
Anyone want to start a pool about what the final number of z visas actualy ends up being ... I'll go with 28 million
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Z-visa = Amnesty
The Z-visa is the whole ballgame. No illegal immigrants have to pay any fine or penalty for being here if they get a Z-visa. And all 12-20 million of them can get the Z-visa. The only ones who'll have to pay a fine are those who want to apply for citizenship. Why would anyone spend $5,000 to become a citizen, when they can work and live here for free without becoming one??? Once they become legal through the Z-visa, why would they want to go back to their country AND pay a $5,000 fine? They'd be out $5,000 and probably out of a job as well.

The Z-visa is exactly the same thing as amnesty
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Hello unlawfl, glad you have weighed in.
I also think the Z visa is what this is all about. The way it looks to me right now is, all current illegals would be entitled to the Z visa. Also their parents, spouses, and children who are not currently living in the US.

This leaves me wondering how many more mostly undereducated aliens this would bring in. And how would this impact our social services? With exception, those who have worked here illegally can not currently qualify for Social Security benefits. But if an illegal is granted legal status through marriage or some other means (amnesty in this case), (s)he can claim prior credits fradulently earned via fake SS numbers and be granted a SS pension after having been credited with having contributed payroll taxes for a minimum of 10 years.

Even worse, the pending US - Mexico Social Security Totalization Agreement would make these residents potentially eligible after having worked in the US for only 18 months.

Would these Z visa holders, as well as their parents, spouses, and children yet to arrive, be entitled to benefits of Social Security and our other social services? I believe the answer is yes. If I am right, from where will the additional funding come? Even more Social Security 'reform' is my guess.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #33
46. What f*cking social services???
What the hell "social services" have ray-gun, bush I, Clin-Ton, and bush II fucking left???

Anyhow, with the regressive nature of taxes in this country they probably more than pull their own weight when it comes to social services.

As for Social Security (which is what I live on) is concerned, just raise the ceiling!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #46
54. Social Security ceiling should be eliminated, not raised.
That would take care of the projected shortfall.

http://www.actuary.org/socsec.asp

But Junior hates Social Security and has been doing his best to wreck it. His parting shot will be the pending US - Mexico Social Security Totalization Agreement. All he has to do to get it ratified is submit it to Congress. After 90 working days the measure becomes law if Congress does nothing to act on it. He just needs one Senator to filibuster on the outside chance they would try to get legislation going to block it.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back904.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #54
64. you are mistaken
on what totalization agreements do

http://www.ssa.gov/international/agreements_overview.html

for a little overview on what a totalization agreement is. basically it is so workers do not pay twice into SS programs, once here and once back in their home country.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. I had already done my basic homework.
The anticipated totalization agreement with Mexico is a perversion of prior agreements, calling into question the appropriateness of such a pact. The norm in existing bilateral totalization agreements assumes employees of corporations are asked by their employers to transfer to the other country for a specified period of time. Employees and employers in both countries have been contributing to their respective social security systems. The dual objectives of existing totalization agreements were to secure tax savings for the employees and employers of both nations by eliminating double taxation and to guarantee an old age pension to those who contributed to both social security systems by “totalizing” the years worked in both countries. Employees legally enter the partner nation with documents verifying they are authorized to work. Virtually all of the existing 20 totalization agreements are with developed nations whose social security retirement benefits are at parity with those in the United States, providing no incentive to stay and vest for U.S. social security.

In contrast, most Mexican workers entered the United States illegally, were not affiliated with a corporation, previously lived in poverty, and paid no social security taxes in Mexico. There is no benefit parity for American workers in Mexico as it takes more than twice as long to vest for Mexican social security (24 years vs. 10 years in United States) and the benefits are far less generous than those in the United States.

Unlike the 20 existing agreements, a totalization agreement with Mexico would be one-sided. Its beneficial effects to U.S. workers would be miniscule compared to those received by potentially millions of Mexicans.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back904.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. CIS
isnt exactly a nonpartisan group, despite what they like people to think. they are basically a paleo-con group associated mainly with republicans

" but its studies, reports, and media releases consistently support its restrictionist agenda and works closely on Capitol Hill with Republican Party immigration restrictionists"

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1452


so it isnt exactly a group i would be quoting for accuracy and fairness on the immigration issue.

also i would like to see where the agreement would automatically become law. as far as i know congress has to approve all measures, including this type.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. That's 60 legislative days, not 90 as I said.
In the United States, once the agreement is signed, the President will submit the agreement to Congress where it must sit in review for 60 session days. If Congress takes no action during this time, the agreement can move forward.

http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/factsheets/USandMexico.htm


Since you have chosen to dismiss my source without having addressed any of the arguments it sets forth, I am hoping this testimony by the US General Accounting Office will meet your discriminating standards:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d031035t.pdf

You will find that its conclusions are consistent with those of the Center for Immigration Studies.

After you have read the report you are welcome to come back and lecture me some more in Totalization Agreement 010.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. is it already in effect?
all the documents refering to it are from at least 2004...hmmmm


wonder if it was in effect all this time and we didnt know it.

but some things i did find interesting already

"An agreement with Mexico would save U.S. workers and their employers about $140 million in Mexican social security and health insurance taxes over the first 5 years of the agreement."


it saves the US money. that cant be too bad.
and the SSA says it will have a neglible long range effect on the trust fund.

and it isnt just me who is against the GIS, i got that from other sources that they are a right wing 501 group looking to shut down all immigration not just illegal immigration.

additionally if one is here illegally they are either not paying SS taxes or if htey are, they are paying under someone elses SS# and it gets "lost" in the trust fund.

finally we have other totalization agreements, they dont seem to have harmed us.

what do you have against the totalization agreement with mexico or do you oppose all of the totalization agreements?

you realize that totalization agreements also benefit US citizens who work abroad right and that they only affect legal aliens/green card holders.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #70
84. Read the GAO study.
You didn't even open the link to the GAO study, did you?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
67. Too true, too true
Unfortunately I think both the Dems and the pukes are scared shitless of anything that's not a regressive tax.

They've passed hundreds of regressive taxes -- the states depend on them -- but they won't even mention PROGRESSIVE taxation.

They're afraid of their donor's wrath...

The only way we'll get what we want and need would be public financing of all elections and then getting involved...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Common ground here, ProudDad.
Edited on Mon May-21-07 02:19 PM by Lasher
I was encouraged this weekend to have watched Bill Gates and Warren Buffett taking questions from college students. I think it was on PBS but I'm not sure. Did you know Buffet still lives in the house he built in the '50s for $32K? Mrs Lasher said she would kill him. I think she meant that literally.

One student asked what they thought about a flat tax. Both Gates and Buffett said taxes are a lot flatter than we think, partly due to the cap on payroll taxes, and both were opposed to Junior's tax cuts for the wealthy. They said rich people are not paying their fair share.

And these are the richest 2 individuals in the world. I had never really made up my mind but at that point I decided I like them both quite a bit. They stand in sharp contrast with people like the Walton family (Wal-mart).

But on immigration issues, as I've noticed in this thread, you and I are way apart. No hard feelings I hope. Fair debate is a great thing but it can sometimes be hard to find.

Did you try the Social Security game I linked above? Try it, it's fun!

Lasher
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #69
79. I'm sure as rational, caring people, you and I could find common ground

"But on immigration issues, as I've noticed in this thread, you and I are way apart. No hard feelings I hope. Fair debate is a great thing but it can sometimes be hard to find."

I'm sure we could find a solution that's a hell of a lot more humane and effective than the wimpy compromise those folks in D.C. are trying to fool the public with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
trudyco Donating Member (975 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. And the wild thing is that more will come to take their place...
once they have legal status they will have the opportunity to take better jobs, then other illegals will come in to take their low wage place.

It won't stop until we prosecute the people who hire and exploit them. A guest worker program is probably worse than H1B's which companies use to exploit workers for the years prior to them getting a green card.

I'm so sick of the middle class getting squeezed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
51. "I'm so sick of the middle class getting squeezed"
Edited on Mon May-21-07 02:55 AM by ProudDad
Ok, then quit looking sideways at your hard working brothers and sisters who happen to be without "documents".

Look up, at the fuckers in the upper classes, bush's base, the "haves" and the "have mores". They're the fuckers who are REALLY SQUEEZING YOU.

This whole immigration thing is a RIGHT-WING BULLSHIT SMOKESCREEN to keep you occupied and hating another small minority group while they truly fuck you over.

Why the fuck should you be worried about 12 million out of 301,889,782 people (as of 12:54am PDT)...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
71. No don't fine the people who hire illegals...deport them.
How can they like America if they hate Americans? The illegal employers are the dangerous people IMHO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. That's really good idea!
The prospect of having to live in some poverty-stricken third world nation would scare the shit out of the CEO of Smithfield or Tyson. I'd love to see that!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. Pressure the Mexican Leaders- Government to create a
middle class so their people, have no reason to come here, in the first place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Make NAFTA work for Mexican Labor and pressure the Mexican government to reform. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
72. Deport anyone who votes for NAFTA or any other un-American
Edited on Mon May-21-07 04:47 PM by Hubert Flottz
bullshit! Why do they hate Americans...like you and me?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. Round up the Employers
I'd round up the employers who are hiring illegally, not grant any amnesty, and allow for attrition to take effect.

Though it would be nearly impossible to round up & deport all illegal immigrants, it is very possible to round up all the illegal employers and prosecute them. There's less of them, and they've got nowhere to hide. And if they stopped illegally hiring, there would no illegal immigration problem. There'd be no motive to come here. And without that motive, a majority would stay in their native countries.

"Rounding up all the illegal immigrants" is a straw man argument. No one is proposing that. What many are proposing, however, is no amnesty for illegal immigrants, and NO amnesty for their EMPLOYERS.

Aggressive Prosecution of Employers = end of illegal immigration problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. Some combination of the above:
:-Make legal immigration significantly easier.
:-Make illegal immigration harder.
:-Give those currently in the US an amnesty period in which they can apply for legal status on an even footing with other applicants.
:-Deport the remainder.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Good plan.
:thumbsup:

I would also add heavily fine employers that exploit workers (documented or otherwise).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seven79 Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. First They Repay Any Fraud
Edited on Sun May-20-07 06:28 PM by seven79
it's one thing to say people enter and stay illegally because the immigration laws have not been enforced for 30 years (since 1986).

it's quite another for those foreign workers to purchase fraudulent documents down at the park, then use those documents to defaud american taxpayers by stealing benefits that legally have been purchansed only for citizens and legal residents.

if they did the crime, they must pay the fine.

either that or stop prosecuting citizens for the same kind of fraud.

fair is fair .... and the way it is now .... isnt.


sincerely seven
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sabbat hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. since 1986?
that would only be 20 years (ok 21) not 30 years :P

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. The Mexican government
need to be reformed. Mexico is a resource rich country that doesn't take care of its own. The people currently making the laws in Mexico are doing very well under this system and will never reform without pressure.

So first, our corrupt country needs a government willing to spend some political capital pressuring the Mexican government to mend its ways. Second, we need to crack down on the employers who are hiring those who have no papers. Tightening border control will only make a difference if one and two are accomplished. At some point we do need to address those people who live and work without documentation in our country. Some of these people have lived here for years and years as law-abiding members of their communtiy. There will be a need for a seasonal temporary workforce to to help in our country. But the mess we have now does not insure that this can be an orderly process.

This current proposal focusing only on the least among us, those under-paid workers who are here because they see no other way, does not address the whole problem nor a long-term solution.

This is not just a Mexican-American problem. The number that I heard was that there are 200,000,000 people scraping by in various countries without documentation. Now why is that? Try corrupt governments who refuse to take care of their own.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
13. Other:
I would bring all our troops home, halt the U.S. march to empire, repeal NAFTA/CAFTA, withdraw from the WTO, engage in fair trade based on living wages and environmental responsibility, provide universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health care, a living wage, affordable housing and transportation, a massive investment in public education to provide small schools, small class sizes, and the resources needed to make sure that students got equal educational opportunity at public pre-schools through college or trade school, and institute some form of the fairness doctrine. I would institute 100% public financing of campaigns and mandatory equal airtime, taking the money/power equation out of the voting process. I'd make sure that every ballot was a hand-counted paper ballot. I'd make major investments into sustainable energy, sustainable farming, and sustainable population figures.

When all of that was accomplished, I would turn my attention to illegal immigrants. Anyone hiring someone for less than the legal minimum living wage, or employing people without adhering to regulations for safe working conditions, reasonable work schedules, etc., or hiring an illegal immigrant, would lose their business and their ability to employ anyone at all.

THEN I would be ready to decide what to do about illegal immigrants. I might start with diplomacy, working with the nations they are leaving to encourage living conditions and working conditions that would keep them home. One of my priorities would be a stable, not a growing, population.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Illegal immigrants (human beings) are not the problem. Global corporate predators
are destroying both of our economies--the U.S. and Mexico(and many third world country economies). THAT is the problem. End Corporate Rule, and you will have no masses of poor people migrating around the western hemisphere searching for jobs. Corporate ag is gobbling up land in Mexico, bankrupting small farmers and sending huge migrations into urban slums. The rich elite is rippping off the profits of "free trade" (global corporate predation), and abandoning the poor, as they are here. They are busting heads in Oaxaca, over the effort of a teachers' union to get a wage increase and the violent repression of a fascist governor.

Here, the global corporate predators are outsourcing all jobs to cheap labor markets--first to Mexico, for instance, and when Mexico workers start getting "uppity," then to Cambodia. It is this thoroughly vicious system of corporate predation--which touches people and ruins their communities and their prospects in so many ways--that is causing the migration.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
seven79 Donating Member (20 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. Part of the Problem is Benefits Fraud
if i were poor and came to the usa for a job,
i would not then use fraudulent documenmts
to scam the american taxpayer system of benefits
to get food, clothing, housing, education, medication
that belongs only to americans
because fraud is theft by deception.

theft is the sin of the individual
regardless of the sins of the corporations.


sincerely seven
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #37
47. Where's your proof
for this "fraud"???

This is right-wing bullshit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
17. Secure the borders first.
Continue to round up the illegals and ship them back - their children too.

Corporate Death Penalty for employers who knowingly hire illegals. Period.

That's the half of me that goes off on the fact that these people are essentially "line jumpers" - cutting in line of others dutifully following the rules set by the community. That bugs the crap out of me.

BUT - the figure on my OTHER shoulder says:

CHANGE THE DAMN IMMIGRATION LAWS!

If it's so necessary to have the people here in the first place, then make it so in the first place...

When my grandparents came here there were essentially OPEN immigration policies.

Then "too many of those people" came here, and it was the beginning of the "illegal" problem.

I'm for opening the entire policy up - like it was a hundred years ago. The country and economy took off then and would do so again.

If you put an artificial lid on something - like preventing persons from either leaving as the old USSR or entering like the present day USA, then you create an artifical reason to "DO IT NOW" no matter how horrible the experience is for all concerned.

When you remove the artificial barriers, a person's naturaly incliniation to "do it tomorrow" kicks in - it's not that they won't ever decide to vote with their feet, the urgency to do it "NOW" is removed, and the reasoning process begins to take shape...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jed Dilligan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
59. When did your grandparents come, and from where?
Just wondering how much of the history of immigration policy you know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. Amnesty and more or less open borders.
No one is illegal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
19. get rid of the illegal ones, but vastly increase the legal ones
Why should legal immigrants who follow the rules have to put up with competing with illegal immigrants, whose first act upon entering the United States was to metaphorically spit on immigration laws that the legal immigrants respected and were following?

Comparisons with the past situation of European settlers and Indians with today are invalid. After all, what happened in the past was a European invasion, not immigration. If you want to make the comparison, then designate the current illegal immigrants as invaders; thats the only way to make the comparison work.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. So because some people endure unjust treatment
other people must endure unjust treatment, too?

I don't understand this "the illegals cheated!" argument... yes, they did, but so what? They shouldn't have been made to play the game in the first place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-19-07 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
21. For all those who complain about the drain illegals have on our social
programs, one question: how the hell much do you think it will cost to "round em all up" and deport them? Millions and millions of people! INS would have to expand IMMENSELY to get rid of all these people--there would be massive disruptions to the work force, and to communities who unfortunately depend on these folks. How the hell long would it take? Is it really something worthwhile to devote this much money and effort to? It would be a Herculean effort, make no mistake--otherwise, they wouldn't still BE here in the numbers they are if simple deportation worked. I don't like illegals either. I wish they weren't here. But they are--and realistically, most of them aren't going away. How about giving them a chance to show themselves to society without fear of arrest/deportation? That way our money could be spent helping them come out from hiding and contribute meaningfully to our country, and have a stake in it. And anyone who proves to be a crime/security threat could be either watched or deported. They should certainly be penalized--it's not fair to legal immigrants otherwise. And the number one task should be to shut down/fine employers who hire them, and improve border security. But let's get real, and invest our tax money on getting tax money and potential good citizenship from the many DECENT folks who are already here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. For those who would "round them up and close the borders..."
American's New Know-Nothings

Four of the Republican nominees once had sensible views on immigration. Apart from McCain, all have now backtracked.

By Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek

May 28, 2007 issue - In 1989, Ronald Reagan made his farewell address to the American people and summed up his view of the United States. "I've spoken of the shining city all my political life," he said, "but I don't know if I ever quite communicated what I saw when I said it. In my mind it was a tall, proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, windswept, God-blessed and teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony and peace; a city with free ports that hummed with commerce and creativity. And if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors and the doors were open to anyone with the will and heart to get here." Today, all the Republican Party can talk about are walls, fences, border guards and attack dogs.

"But that was about legal immigration," Republicans today will claim. "Our complaints are about illegal aliens." Actually Reagan addressed the issue of illegals directly and with surprising candor. In a radio address in 1977, he observed that apples were rotting on trees in New England because no Americans were willing to pick them. "It makes one wonder about the illegal-alien fuss. Are great numbers of our unemployed really victims of the illegal-alien invasion or are those illegal tourists actually doing work our own people won't do?" Reagan asked. "One thing is certain in this hungry world: no regulation or law should be allowed if it results in crops rotting in the fields for lack of harvesters."

The facts incidentally confirm Reagan's view. The six states that get the largest inflow of illegal immigrants—New York, California, Illinois, Texas, Florida and Arizona—have unusually low unemployment rates. With the exception of California and Illinois, they are all lower than the already-low national average of 4.5 percent (last month). As for the argument that immigrants depress the wages of native-born Americans, the best new research on this topic—by economists Giovanni Peri and Chad Sparber—demonstrates that unskilled immigrants complement rather than replace native Americans in the labor force, doing jobs that native Americans will not.

The compromise immigration bill worked out in the Senate by Sens. Ted Kennedy and John Kyl is imperfect. But in broad terms it solves many of the problems with the current immigration system and, in Kennedy's words, "brings millions of people out of the shadows and into the sunshine of America." It does what legislation in a large and diverse country should do—makes trade-offs, compromises and accommodations to actually get something done. The requirements for illegal immigrants are so arduous that many might stay hidden and the guest-worker program is so complicated that it might be unworkable. But these features could be fixed and the proposal does move this important issue forward.

<>There are legitimate concerns about illegal immigration and about the need for assimilation especially among Mexican immigrants. But it is also true that beneath the current wave of protests lies a familiar fear. In 1996 Rudy Giuliani clearly identified it: "The anti-immigration issue that's now sweeping the country in my view is no different than the movements that swept the country in the past," he said. "You look back at the Chinese Exclusionary Act, or the Know-Nothing movement—these were movements that encouraged Americans to fear foreigners, to fear something that is different, and to stop immigration." He was right then. But the Republican Party he wants to lead is becoming the modern incarnation of the Know-Nothings.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18754292/site/newsweek/
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
26. Option 3
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Colobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
27. A hard working illegal is better than a lazy US citizen, by the way
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #27
58. Now there's an argument going nowhere.
I should encourage my members of Congress to support lenient immigration policies because illegals are better than I am? I don't think you're going to win many US citizens to your way of thinking by making claims like that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
82. are you against immigration laws?
just curious.

Love your pic by the way!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
30. Multi-step process
First, seal the border up TIGHT for six months. National Guard, FBI, Predator drones, whatever.

Then, during that time, any illegals in the country must register and get a taxpayer ID number. Get them into the system. Get them paying income taxes and Social Security taxes and Medicare taxes. Get them legitimate. Any people with undesirable qualities, such as contagious diseases or a felonious history get the boot. Maybe require a minimum amount of knowledge in basic English, US government, and civics.

After six months, harsh penalties for employing illegal immigrants. A thousand dollars per day per illegal worker. Revamp the various government agencies so that any money that goes towards a person that is dead or underage gets flagged and investigated.

The people that get to stay here and get legal status have to pay a $5,000 fine that would help cover the processing, background checks, etc. It would be payable in ten payments of $500, and would be done on your income taxes. There would be a line for the "2007 Immigrant Naturalization Fee" or whatever it's called. There would be a box to check on your W-4 so that the $10 a week could be added to your withholding.

No guest worker program for unskilled jobs. I think the millions that are here already will give us plenty of unskilled labor for quite a while. And with the floodgates closed, wages should rise up enough so that it will once again become a summer job for teenagers and such.

Then we keep immigration from Latin America minimal for a decade or so. It is obvious that our country is big enough to absorb 3 or 4 hundred thousand immigrants a year, so I'd rather we used this absorption ability of ours to help people living in truly terrible and oppressive conditions, like Darfur or Palinstine or Lebanon or Iraq or Saudi Arabia or North Korea or Serbia or Somolia or Sierra Leone or Liberia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Good plan!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #30
48. Right, seal up a 3000 mile border
with the dregs left over after sending most of the military to Iraq?

Who caused the conditions in Latin America that resulted in a migration into this rich, rich country?

THE BIG BAD U.S. of A. DID!!!

Between the wars fostered in the region by nixon, ford, Carter, ray-gun and bush I and the HORRIBLE, rapacious economic policies resulting from NAFTA, GATT and the WTO -- protecting investors to the detriment of the rest of us -- these folks have/had nowhere else to go after their home economies dried up.


Not only that, but you "round 'em up"ers are pretty f*cking stupid! The folks who get here through all the roadblocks that are set in their way are the resourceful ones. They are the adventurous folks, the imaginative, the hopeful.

Aren't these the kind people we WANT as neighbors, friends and fellow workers???
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #48
53. I didn't say "Round 'em up"
Edited on Mon May-21-07 03:08 AM by krispos42
We should do it when most of the farms are out of season. I understand many of the illegal farm workers head home on a regular basis.

And you are right, I forgot to mention NAFTA et al.

If we bring in people that are facing deperate times, those people, and their children, will be the hardest-working, most civic-minded people here, becuase they KNOW how good it is here and what they have to lose. That kind of energy and passion is the kind we need, and it seems that many native-born Americans lose sight of it. But the Indian or Korean that works in a convience store 7 days a week or the Somolian taxi driver that works extra shifts... those are the kind of people I'd be happy to have come in. And that also includes the Mexican digging cucumbers out of the ground and the Cuban cleaning office buildings.

<edit: spelling>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Mexicans digging cucumbers out of the ground?
Please don't tell me the Somolian drives his taxi through the air. :o

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Cucumbers grow above ground.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #57
73. Who'd pick our mashed potatoes and build our Wal-Marts?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Brassballs Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-23-07 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #48
90. I want NO lawbreakers as friends & neighbors, period,
regardless of how noble the goal. I do not believe in
that the end justifies the means. We must respect EVERY
law. Nothing wrong in trying to change laws you don't
like. But for heavens sake let us not start choosing
which laws to obey and which to disregard. That is a
slippery slope to anarchy.

When people enter this country illegally, they BREAK LAW!!!
Having said that I agree with you that a provision should be
made in the law to allow these ambitious people to come here
and work and help the US economy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
31. Nothing at all, simply dry up the jobs and they will take care of themselves. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Brassballs Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
35. Illegals are 95% potential democratic voters, give them amnesty
and make them citizens asap.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #35
50. That's why the pukes
hate "Amnesty"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Brassballs Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #50
75. Reagan is the only president I know of who granted amnesty
to illegals. And he was a puke as far as I know.

Also, the business class loves the cheap & hard working labor
in the form of illegals. That is why the Bushler is for it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #75
85. Congress has passed 7 bills giving amnesty to about 5.7 million illegals
1. Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA) Amnesty, 1986: A blanket amnesty for some 2.7 million illegal aliens.

2. Section 245(i) of the FY 1995 Commerce, Justice, State Appropriations bill: A temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens.

3. Section 245(i) Extension of 1997: An extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994.

4. Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) of 1997: An amnesty for close to one million illegal aliens from Central America.

5. Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA) of 1998: An amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti.

6. Late Amnesty, 2000: An amnesty for some illegal aliens who claimed they should have been given amnesty under the 1986 IRCA amnesty, an estimated 400,000 illegal aliens.

7. LIFE Act Amnesty of 2000: A reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty, an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Brassballs Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. My point is Reagan was the 1st prez to sign Amnesty for Illegals
into law. That is when the lion's share of illegals suddenly
became legal. The other acts you listed are minor adjustments
and pertain to special situations.

Again, the repugs are as much for amnesty as democrats. So is
the big & small business. Only the American public majority is
against it, but they don't make the laws.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. My purpose was not to challenge your assertion.
Your point is well taken. My intent was only to share information.

Saint Ronnie of Reagan and his disciples are neocons and corporatists, not conservatives. There are a few actual conservatives left in the Publican party, and they are the ones who are opposed to amnesty for illegal aliens. After all, conservatives conserve, which is maintaining the status quo.

A rift in the Publican party is forming right now, as the true conservatives have had about enough of the neocons and conservatives. The immigration issue might be seen as the last straw to some of them. We are seeing results of this dissention as Junior's poll numbers continue to decline.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
62. Don't bet on them voting the way you'd like them to
They're also 95% Roman Catholic and undereducated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pushed To The Left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
42. The most important thing is securing the border itself. Without that, the rest will have no effect
It seems like everybody is debating whether or not there should be amnesty or guest worker programs. I'm pretty close to being apathetic about those parts of the issue, because they are not important if the root of the problem isn't addressed! I would actually be pretty open to amnesty if the borders were secure. Otherwise, regardless of how many undocumented people become legalized, there will be more and more undocumented people who will get exploited and nothing will improve. Domestically, I would go after the employers who are exploiting this situation and are both taking advantage of the illegal/undocumented immigrants and driving wages down. If we saw CEOs going away in handcuffs instead of illegal/undocumented people they hire, things might change very quickly!

It's not a left-right issue, because there are liberals and conservatives on both sides. I find more and more that I don't fully agree with either side. It seems that one side wants to ignore that laws are being fragrantly broken, and the other side wants to direct too much of its anger towards the most powerless people. I think most people could agree on a solution if race and emotion were eliminated from the issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #42
49. See my post #48
sealing up the 3000 mile border on the Mexican side is a pipe dream.

No way, Jose....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-20-07 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
43. If I had total free will in the matter
I'd open up my house to them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
52. Why should you buy into right-wing bullshit, folks?
Edited on Mon May-21-07 03:00 AM by ProudDad
I say again, quit looking sideways at your hard working brothers and sisters who happen to be without "documents".

Look up. Look up at the fuckers in the upper classes; bush's base, the "haves" and the "have mores".

They're the fuckers who are REALLY SQUEEZING YOU.

This whole immigration thing is a RIGHT-WING BULLSHIT SMOKESCREEN to keep you occupied and hating another small minority group while they truly fuck you over.

Why the fuck should you be worried about 12 million out of 301,889,782 people (as of 12:54am PDT)...

This whole stupid thing...I've seen it before. I saw it in the deep South in the 50s and 60s when those in charge had poor and middle-class whites hating black people. It worked. Those deluded bastards didn't bother to look up at the f*ckers who were exploiting the hell out of them.

Divide and conquer, divide and conquer.

No wonder us working class folks are losing. So easily manipulated...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:20 AM
Response to Original message
56. Sweet Jesus, who are the people picking the "throw them out"/"close the borders" option?
Edited on Mon May-21-07 05:30 AM by BlueIris
You do realize it's 2007, right?

For the record, I clicked "other," and no, I don't have a ready-made solution on hand to post. But my GODS, I thought the climate in here re: immigration had become at least a LITTLE more tolerant. Guess not!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
83. people who care about American workers
Edited on Mon May-21-07 11:16 PM by darboy
and who want to fight corporate America's loophole around our labor laws.

Who loves illegal immmigration? George Bush and his big business buddies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #56
86. I'm guessing they're big fans of Lou Dobbs..



~~~~
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
60. Fix the political problems in Mexico that are holding back its economy
That is the only real solution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
steel71 Donating Member (13 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. Yes, Mexicans love their country why don't you people
who support illegal aliens look in to reason they have to come here? Most of them want to live in their homeland, but because of corrupt government selling off there natural resources to corporations, and keeping the profits for themselves. We don't have an industrial or factory base anymore. We don't make hardly anything for export these days on a mass scale. This bill which is over 1000 pages long has more then just amnesty. It includes chain immigration, which means 1 Mexican can invite 11 family members to the US. Then in a few years those 11 family members can "each" invite an additional 11 family members. These country is already broke, maybe Paris Hilton can bail us out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
63. We keep hearing about illegal employers-
Edited on Mon May-21-07 11:40 AM by Bornaginhooligan
What about illegal consumers? You know, the ones who buy orange juice for $3.50 per half gallon, picked by illegal immigrants?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bamacrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
74. Well regardless what we want we cant throw them out because of the sheer number.
The only way to really do this effectively is too make all here legal, close the borders, allowing only a certain amount of immigrants, Mexican or not, in. Then penalize the fuck out of the corporations that have caused this problem to balloon so big.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BikeWriter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
78. Enforce our laws.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
80. If illegals are working here then they should be issued with a work permit
they may wish to apply for a green card. Their families may also want to get resident alien status. Their employers must pay for their health insurance.

Do deal with the Mexican government that all potential workers must apply for work permit in Mexico BEFORE they come here. Anyone without a work permit would be deported and jailed in Mexico.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
89. This poll is evidence of another split in American politics,
that's only just now starting to be recognized--protectionists vs. globalists. Cultural conservatives worried about Hispanic influence find allies with pro-union liberals, and free-trade conservatives find allies in human-rights-sympathetic liberals. It's interesting how evenly split the Republican and Democrats are on issues of globalism and immigration--this really requires another political axis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC