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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 09:19 AM
Original message
Anybody knows why Hillary voted against
Edited on Mon Jun-04-07 09:21 AM by ProSense
this bill to protect civilians from cluster bombs:

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 109th Congress - 2nd Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate


Vote Summary

Question: On the Amendment (Feinstein Amdt. No. 4882 )
Vote Number: 232 Vote Date: September 6, 2006, 12:00 PM
Required For Majority: 1/2 Vote Result: Amendment Rejected
Amendment Number: S.Amdt. 4882 to H.R. 5631
Statement of Purpose: To protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions.
Vote Counts: YEAs 30
NAYs 70


SA 4882. Mrs. FEINSTEIN (for herself and Mr. LEAHY) submitted an amendment intended to be proposed by her to the bill H.R. 5631, making appropriations for the Department of Defense for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2007, and for other purposes; as follows:


At the end of title VIII, add the following:

Sec. 8109. No funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act my be obligated or expended to acquire, utilize, sell, or transfer any cluster munition unless the rules of engagement applicable to the cluster munition ensure that the cluster munition will not be used in or near any concentrated population of civilians, whether permanent or temporary, including inhabited parts of cities or villages, camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or camps or groups of nomads.


From a CNN report:

What are the ground rules for the U.S. use of cluster bombs? Why does the United States use cluster bombs?

MCINTYRE: Well, they say they are an effective weapon for an area of attack, and to deny an area to the enemy. And they say that they are used against legitimate military targets.

The question here is, do you use them in an area where there are going to be a lot of civilians? And that's what they are looking at, how they were used.

And, of course, human rights advocates claim that even if you only use them against military targets, they're still an indiscriminate weapon because they can explode days or even months later when innocent people come by and pick them up. They equate them to landmines.

more


From Think Progress: Senate ok’s cluster bombs.

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whometense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Something to do with
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. AIPAC $$$$ AIPAC $$$$ AIPAC $$$$ AIPAC $$$$ AIPAC $$$$
Just a wild guess.

TC
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Gimme a break. This has nothing to do with Israel.
This is all about military contractors' money.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The bill was about military contractors' money, but
that doesn't address motivation for the vote.

From the CNN transcript linked to in the OP:

The State Department says the United States is looking into allegations that Israel used American-made cluster bombs against targets in civilian areas of southern Lebanon, a possible violation of a secret agreement with the United States on the use of such munitions. Israel insists its use of the weapons was legal.

Let's turn to our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre. He's looking into this story -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, you know cluster bombs are controversial, but add cluster bombs and U.S. weapons sales to Israel and possible targeting of civilians, and you've got a controversy that has the State Department looking for answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): In southern Lebanon, bomb disposal units are finding and disarming thousands of unexploded cluster munitions that litter the landscape after the recent 34-day Israeli offensive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From what we're seeing on the ground, there is tens of thousands of cluster bombs everywhere, scattered everywhere.

MCINTYRE: U.N. workers and human rights groups report many of the unexploded bomblets come from American-made cluster bombs provided to Israel which could violate the conditions under which they were sold.

BONNIE DOCHERTY, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Well, the United States had a special agreement with Israel in the '70s that said that Israel was not allowed to use these weapons in populated areas. It violated those rules in its earlier invasion of Lebanon, and that moratorium was extended.

MCINTYRE: In the '80s, the U.S. banned sales of cluster bombs to Israel because of how they were used in the 1982 invasion of Lebanon. But the State Department won't discuss the strings attached to the recent sales.

A State Department spokesman told CNN simply, "What we are looking to see is if they were used... how they were used, who were the targets..."

Because cluster bombs have a five to 10 percent failure rate, dug (ph) bomblets can kill and maim long after the fighting stops.

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: One of the problems that the human rights people have is that kids come out after the war, after the attack, and they find these things and try to pick them up, and they go off unfortunately at that time, producing injuries of civilian casualties that you're not looking for.

MCINTYRE: A U.N. report cited Lebanese army figures that 12 people had been killed and 51 injured from unexploded ordnance, including cluster bombs, since hostilities ended. U.N. workers have located 288 sites across Lebanon where cluster bombs were used, mostly, they say, in the three days before the cease-fire.

A statement from the Israeli Defense Forces says, "All the weapons and munitions used by the IDF are legal under international law, and their use conforms with international standards."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: An office in the State Department that oversees foreign military sales will conduct a review. Meanwhile, a spokesman at the Israeli embassy told CNN today that so far there has been no formal inquiry from the U.S. government -- Wolf.

BLITZER: When I was in Israel in recent weeks this issue of cluster bombs came up and what the Israelis said, Israeli military and political leaders, was that when they use cluster bombs, they use it just as the U.S. military would use cluster bomb munitions, whether in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or earlier in the Balkans.


Israel, and Iraq, came up in the discussions. So why did Hillary vote against the bill?

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. It looks like Senator Feinstein has introduced the same thing in this congress
Edited on Mon Jun-04-07 10:41 AM by karynnj
as a free standing bill.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.594:

It's last status was that it was sent to the SFRC - which Biden chairs. I assume that even if he doesn't want it brought to the floor, she still can do so.

I can't find a statement on Hillary's Senate website - but I am not very familliar with it.

Apparently, the Clinton administration refused to sign the treaty banning landmines - though they said it should be signed in 2006, long enough to get alternative weapons.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/23/1413214

These munitions have been used at least since the Vietnam War.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/armstrade/story/0,,1938494,00.html

From the 2 above links, all I can think of is that the US is reluctant to give up a devastating war tool. Now that most countries see it as against international law, I am appalled that so many Senators voted to keep them. This is immoral.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Thanks for posting this. n/t
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You're welcome
I was trying toi find a Hillary statement, but failed.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
8. i believe i "may" know
i've read some of the arguments (can't remember where) NOT by Senator Clinton but by several others who voted against the bill as Clinton did.

the main arguments against it were:
1. there was already a law in effect stating something like civilians must be protected whenever possible during war and
2. the Congress should not impose its will on the Executive Branch as to how weapons are used or wars are fought.

again, I'm doing this from memory but I believe those were the two essential arguments against the bill.

my view is that putting up bureaucratic arguments in the face of such obviously pro-humanitarian legislation is obscene. there is a massive worldwide movement to ban these weapons entirely and Hillary Inc. couldn't even see her way fit to ban their use in civilian areas.
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
9. Because then we would only be able to drop BIG bombs on civilians?
Because if the problem is failure rates of cluster bombs, maybe that is what should be addressed?
Because it is unenforcable and she wanted to ban them totally instead?

I don't know, just some guesses.
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