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ncabot22 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:42 PM
Original message
Question about Hillary
Hello! I have a question and I hope it doesn't offend people because no offense is meant. I'm wondering why, if polls show Obama beating repubs in the general election, would people support Hillary in the primaries when polls show her lagging behind or running neck and neck with repub candidates. Is it because Hillary pisses off repubs and this is a way to "stick it to them"? Why wouldn't Democrats pick a candidate that has an actual chance to beat a repub? I ask this as a Canadian. I know I have no horse in this race but I would prefer that a Democrat win.

I've read other posts that say they know of people crossing party lines to vote for Obama or Edwards but none for Hillary. I guess I'm panicking a little but I'm just curious why people in voting in the primaries would pick someone so divisive as Hillary.

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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Because polls this early out are not terribly meaningful. NT
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. BINGO! I'm addicted like everyone else - but today's polls are less than useless. n/t
n/t
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Raven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Well, welcome and be prepared to be flamed. Many here I
suspect would vote for Sen. Clinton no matter what. I am still looking at all of the candidates and will make my decision based upon the best peace candidate and the one who can win. I don't think Sen Clinton fits into either of those candidates. Now duck!
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ncabot22 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Thanks for the welcome...and the warning
:)
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. There's still a significant contingent of Democrats who think Hillary can win.
Edited on Mon Jun-18-07 04:49 PM by Capn Sunshine
They are as wrong as those who thought Kerry could win. The campaigns share many of the same advisors. The basic issue is believing in the possibility that a woman can win the general election.

I say there's way too much poison out there to overcome this, even if it weren't Hillary.
I say the country wants to go in a different direction, not elect another Clinton.
So hence my warnings to her supporters.
They are very dedicated. So they won't listen.

The multi- partisan support Obama enjoys at this early stage is much more diverse. I say this is significant. Many disagree.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hillary does have a real chance at beating the GOP though.
If this were Jan 2008 and the polls showed Hillary down double digits to the top 3 GOPers, you would have a point.

But since she is either beating or within the MOE of contests with the GOP 1 1/2 years before the election, I think people can be safe in picking their candidate.

Also this works in other ways, say you're an Edwards supporter (and he stays in 3rd for the nomination)and your state has it close between Hillary and Obama, do you vote for your guy or the candidate you think hgas a better chance to win the GE?
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NaturalHigh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. Welcome to DU...
Now, take cover! The Hillary assault team will be here soon.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. Obama, being a politician from IL,
most likely has some "skeletons" These must be vetted before we make the choice for nomination. I think HRC's skeletons are all out there.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. oh come on now "skeletons" in illinois?
we bury them in the indiana cornfields-ever seen "casino"?
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well, if they are hidden well, then never mind.
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Ethelk2044 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. The repugs will come out in force to make sure she is not Elected
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. latest polls
Hillary flips four red states:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3324194&mesg_id=3324194

Hillary leads Giuliani in most state polls, including these:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3323969&mesg_id=3323969

Hillary leads Obama in all national polls among Dems and independents leaning Dem.

:shrug:

I've read other posts that say they know of people crossing party lines to vote for Obama or Edwards but none for Hillary.

Maybe Clinton supporters are less likely to invent anecdotal evidence?
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. Keep in mind this party has lost 7 of the last 10 elections
You don't put up a track record like that by consistently demonstrating good judgment when it comes to nominating the right person.

If Hillary still polls demonstrably worse than others against Republicans in 1Q 2008 and we still make her the nominee, you can expect our sad record to continue.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. 6.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. 2000 shouldn't even have been close, so I count that as a loss
but I know where you're coming from.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. True.
:hi: :hi: :hi:
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ncabot22 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I truly hope that doesn't happen
If I could, I'd vote. I'll be honest, I like Obama a lot. If Gore doesn't run, then I hope Obama get the nomination. I'd love to see a Gore/Obama ticket.

Now, if we can just have an election here and vote out the Conservatives from having a majority and put the NDP (I wish!)or the Liberals (most likely) in charge, all will be well.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Gore/Obama would be a killer ticket
which is probably reason enough to guarantee it won't happen.
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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. Even at a convention, Dem's still will nominate a loser in the polls. See Hart v. Mondale 1984.
A published poll at the time of the 1984 convention showed Hart beating Reagan while Mondale would clearly lose. The convention still nominated Mondale who lost 49 states in the worst loss in American politics.

The 1984 National Convention of the U.S. Democratic Party was held at the Moscone Center in San Francisco, California from July 16 to July 19, 1984. Unfortunately, the events of almost 23 years ago are not well documented on the Internet, since the Internet as we know it, didn’t exist then. Upon consultation and reflection, the Hartistas believe the poll was conducted by Gallup, but it was certainly was one of the major polling firms.

This from a high ranking Hartista, alias “CF Progress”, at the San Francisco convention on the matter of the poll and sticking the newspaper it appeared in under the doors of the Mondale delegates’ hotel rooms:
“Absolutely right. I was involved in this effort (and may have been the first to suggest it to Henkel). I recall the poll showing Gary leading Reagan by 3-5% and Mondale losing to Reagan by 7-9%. The poll was also distributed on the floor, which I could walk along the back of with my Hart guest pass. The Dem’s through themselves off the Golden Gate Bridge that week when they irrationally nominated Mondale (and repeated the mistake the following cycle). I actually tell the story in Hart/Heart in San Francisco, my (copyrighted) short story about my experience during '84 Convention Week. I wrote about it under the pseudonym CF Progress. (There's a copy in the Library of Congress; if anyone cares to locate it, the title actually has a heart symbol. It's in their computer records under CF Progress
During conventions, all the big publications (National Journal, etc.) circulated free special editions daily. (Maybe a holdover from the time conventions were contentious and shaped history. '84 was the end of that era.) Could have been any of them. I might have mentioned it in my short story. The numbers were unequivocal and lopsided. The Dem delegates did what they did with their eyes open: they threw the '84 election to Reagan.
(On the July 2-7, 1984 Harris poll showing Reagan and Hart in a statistical dead heat) I remember it differently and don't think it would have stuck in my mind as much if Gary were only shown slightly behind, and Mondale further behind, as here. I doubt the campaign would have approved distribution of this one, because the point (meaning) would not have been strong enough to brag about that way.”

In case you doubt the result, the July 2-7, 1984 Harris poll showed Reagan and Hart in a statistical dead-heat, while Reagan beat Mondale by 16 percent:
CAMPAIGN NOTES; Poll Shows Narrowing Of Reagan Lead in Race
New York Times
Published: July 12, 1984
President Reagan's lead over Walter F. Mondale has narrowed in the last month, according to the latest Harris Survey.
A poll of 1,259 ''likely voters'' in forthcoming Presidential election, conducted July 2-7, showed Mr. Reagan with 52 percent support and the former Vice President with 44 percent.
Mr. Reagan's lead over Senator Gary Hart of Colorado also slipped, but by a statistically insignificant amount. Mr. Reagan, who led by 51 percent to 47 percent in June, now holds a lead of 49 to 48 percent.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802E0DF1039F931A25754C0A962948260

(The last sentence here is not accurate. Reagan’s 1% lead over Hart was statistically insignificant, not the 4% drop from the previous month’s poll. Typical MSM disinformation!)

Unlike Mondale, had Hart been nominated, he would not have used his acceptance speech to promise more middle class tax increases. The ’84 polls showed Hart could beat Reagan and Mondale couldn’t. Hart was rising in the polls at the time of the convention while Mondale, was tanking. Yet, the Dem’s lined up to drink the Mondale kool-aid and resulting 49 state loss.

Defeat was snatched from the jaws of victory, and the legend of “St. Ronnie” and the 49 state landslide came into our history.

I don’t want to do that again, but history tends to repeat itself in the Democratic party.


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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
19. Which polls...Hillary is beating them all in most of the polls posted.
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durtee librul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
20. Again, I ask...
would we even be discussing her if her last name was not Clinton?
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Ethelk2044 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. No
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Discuss a Senator Clinton of NY - of course we would -just like we discuss the Senator from Illinois
and the Senators from Delaware and Connecticut.
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election_2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-18-07 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
24. The answer to your question....
Is it because Hillary pisses off repubs and this is a way to "stick it to them"?

Yes. :(

Look how far we've fallen...
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