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One thing we shouldn't do - is Impeach Too Soon!

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Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:41 PM
Original message
One thing we shouldn't do - is Impeach Too Soon!
Crossposted from Dailykos.

People, I know you're pissed.

I know that this pack of rabid criminals running the White House and the Government have got you hopping mad with ignoring Richard Clark, ignoring the Cole, ignoring the PDB, ignoring the attempted invervention on Rice and the Crawford One-on-One with Tenet on Osama, Yellowcake, no al-Qaeda in Iraq, trumped up links between Saddam and 9-11, ignoring the insurgency, ignoring the Iraqi People, ignoring Afghanistan, Body Armor, Abu Ghraib, Tora Bora, Gitmo, revoking Habeaus Corpus, the Katrina aftermath, ignoring both Fact and Science on climate change and stem cells, the Voter Caging, Freedom Fries, the midnight ride to Terry Schiavo's hospice, the Domestic Spying, The NSL's, outing Valerie Plame-Wilson, Diebold, Abramov, Safavian, Guckert, the "fucking faith-based thing", the midnight ride to Ashcroft's bedside, the Partisan Purging of DOJ and Civic Rights Division, Walter Reed, the Cheney Branch of Government and most of all -- the endless lies and bullcrap about all the above.

But take deep breath say these words with me.

"It's not time to Impeach, not yet."

This diary is directly squarely at the Impeach First, Ask questions later crowd.

And I'm sure "Ok, smart-guy - why not?" is what many of you are saying right now.

Unfortunately the answer isn't simple, so bear with me - but the main problem is the fact that Bush hasn't been caught red-handed yet.

Just yesterday I posted a rec'd Dkos diary on the Contempt of Congress motion being brought forward by John Conyers judiciary committee. That news was met here, at the Impeachment Captial of the Web, with a great deal of skeptism and frustration. It was too weak, too timid. Yet I think that objectively Conyers is doing exactly what he needs to do and shouldn't jump the gun all the way to drawing up articles of Impeachment against Bush because of one simple fact.

He'd lose.

I don't come to this view easily, I spent the better part of a week last year writing not one (Intelligence Fraud), not two (Domestic Espionage), not three (War Crimes), but four (Criminal Negligence) full length diaries giving a detailed litany of why Bush (and others) should be impeached.

There was even a Defense Argument by Major Danby posted against my many and various charges to which I submitted a Rebuttal and then rested my case.

Back then we didn't have majority control of congress. Impeachment was an abstraction. A wishful dream. Now Dems do have control and many of us are getting quite upset at the "lack of progress" so far - many of us are ready to throw up our hands in frustration at the inaction of the Congress Critters.

Congress's approval rating is even lower than the President's and that's saying something - but what it says isn't good.

I understand this frustration, really I do, but the fact is that things are going exactly as they should.

Back then I was speaking generally, and including the idea of Impeaching Rumsfeld (who was still in office) as well as Gonzales and Cheney, but now I'm just focusing on Bush himself and in my view it simply isn't his time yet.

Oh, we thought we had him with the Downing Street Minutes, but not quite because you see - "fixing the facts around the policy" were the words of various British ministers who were quoting (apparently) the words of Tenet and Rice, but not Bush.

We thought we had him with Downing Street II, when it was revealed that Bush had admitted to Blair that it didn't matter whether Saddam had WMD's or not, he was invading anyway.

Unfortunately, being an F-inking Liar to the press and the American people isn't a criminal offense and so far isn't Impeachable.

And I don't care what Arlen Specter says about there being a law against "False Official Statements" (something he's mentioned several times in relation to Alberto Gonzales) - there isn't one. That term refers to a set of Military Regs, and could lead to a court-martial for members of the military who lie on official documentation, but it doesn't exist in criminal law.

So yes, he lied about not planning to fire Rumsfeld - annoying - but not Impeachable.

Going Count by Count...

  • Intelligence Fraud : Much of the real mischief took place far downstream from Bush. It happened with Douglas Feith who stovepiped and cooked intelligence while the DIA kept vital info such as the real facts about al-Libby and Curveball hidden and Cheney kept pressing the Niger-Yellowcake story alive despite 14 different skeptical rebuttals. That's a hit on the "Rumsfeld and Cheney Cabal" as Lawrence Wilkerson has described it - but not Bush.
  • Domestic Espionage: This issue remains on appeal after Judge Anne Diggs-Taylor's viciously pointed ruling on the NSA wire-tapping programs. She did declare that It was a crime one which we know has been specifically authorized and implemented by Bush personally - but we don't yet know what the appeals courts will say and whether they Supremes will back Diggs-Taylor or not.

There is also the fact that a FISA Judge has since signed off on the program, which again makes the issue largely moot - for now.

Except for the Midnight Ride to Ashcroft's bed which is a new revelation and may open up direct links both to breaking the law, since that version of the NSA program was found to be illegal by the DOJ - and was temporarily implemented by the White House anyway over the objections and threats to resign by Ashcroft and Comey. Gonzo is looking at perjury for his false Congressional testimony - but, we still don't yet have any direct links to Bush other than his making the phone call to Ashcroft's wife indicating that Card and Gonzo were "heading over". Who exactly made the decision to override the DOJ has not yet been revealed.

  • War Crimes: This mostly leads back to Gonzales' advice and attempts to circumvent Geneva by trumping up this "Enemy Combatants" pseudo status nonesense - and to Rumsfeld for authorizing interrogation techniques outside the Army Field Manual guidelines. Bush has been an accessory after the fact, but it's largely their crime.
  • Criminal Negligence: Last year I argued for Impeachment in the wake of Katrina, the failure to respond to 9-11 warnings, the deteriorating situation in Iraq and Bush's abuse of Signing Statements. Unfortunately Bush was far from the only one who totally fucked-up in these situations. Ample blame can and will be thrown at Ray Nagin, Kathleen Blanco, Rumseld, Tommy Franks, Colin Powell, George Tenet and others. The legal basis for Bush's use of signing statements has not been challenged or verified either way. Again annoying, probably extra-constitutional - but not illegal, yet.

All the above is very different from what actually occured in either Nixon's case or Clinton's impeachment - they were both busted cold.

The Paula Jones Story and suit broke while Clinton was running for President in 1992, it didn't metastisize into a full-blown disaster until six years later in 1998 when Clinton was caught in carefully crafted perjury trap during his deposition and further pummelled during in his Grand Jury testimony. It was his own words under oath that got him into trouble, not the actions of anyone else.

Nixon's near impeachment was a different story, but it was still his own words that did the trick. It also took quite a long while find out what those words actually were.

The Watergate Break-In took place in June of 1972, all five burglars were tried and convicted by January of 1973 for breaking and entering. It was a minor little case, until one of the burglars wrote a letter to the presiding judge.

In March 1973, James McCord, one of the convicted burglars, wrote a letter to Sirica charging a massive coverup of the burglary. His letter transformed the affair into a political scandal of unprecedented magnitude.

With the help of Mark Felt (Deep Throat) Woodward and Bernstein at the WaPo as well as Senate investigators began to slowly unravel exactly what McCord's letter was really talking about.

All the witnesses rallied around the president, until in June of 1973 John Dean testified - and gasp - told the truth!

But that didn't break open the floodgates, it just made Nixon circle that wagons even tighter. Dean was written off as a kook.

The story was over.

A month later in July the existence of the White House taping system was revealed during congressional testimony by Alexander Butterfield. Congress subpoened the tapes which led to Nixon trying to fight those subpoenas with the Saturday Night Massacre on October 20, 1973 having Robert Bork fire Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox when Attorney General Elliot Richardson refused to drop the axe himself.

This move is what turned the Republicans against Nixon - before they or anyone else even knew what was really on the tapes. Eventually Nixon complied with the subpoena and after people heard the tapes and their transcripts in April of 1974 it was all over but the shouting.

But here's the kicker...

Impeachment proceedings against Nixon didn't begin until May 9th of 1974 almost one year after Dean's initial testimony and almost two years after the initial break-in.

As I said in a comment yesterday.

We haven't yet had anyone stand up and truly spill the beans the way John Dean did in 1973 or Fawn Hall and Ollie North did in 1986. We haven't yet found the smoking gun tape, a piece of evidence which specifically points to crimes by Bush himself. We haven't had a Saturday Night Massacre - all because many people in the current administration were there during Watergate {as well as} Iran-Contra and they are specifically trying to avoid getting caught in the same way.

When it does happen, it probably going to be from something we haven't anticipated yet.

So with all this in mind, what I have to say to the IMPEACH NOW people is ... calm down and have a bit more patience.

We're going the right direction, and we're right on schedule - at this point we're looking at a constitutional showdown on the contempt of congress charges by late summer/early winter. Either Harriet Miers and Josh Bolton are going to court (and prison) or we're going to get the the truth in detail early next year - possibly both - just in time for fabulous mid 2008 Summer Impeachment and Removal Trial Extravoganza! .

Don't forget to bring the hot-dogs and the charcoal.

In the meantime, rather than obsessing over Bush - let's focus on Gonzo, 1) he's already in major criminal jeopardy and 2) he's the gatekeeper on access to yummy Special Counsel goodness.

Once we get a real dogged SC on the case, all bets are off the table.

One step at a time people, one step at a time.

Vyan

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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't think they will ever impeach unless we make them
So many of these Dem politicians went along with Bush in the Iraq war and most every other endeavor of the bush regime you can't expect them to expose themselves to this kinda scrutiny. The bush defense would be is that the Dems knew what the intel showed, and they supported me.

a pox on both their houses.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. ALSO -
impeachment would "rally their base" - and make everything else that they're becoming pissed about now - a NON-issue.

AND - even if it were "successful" or they resigned - whoever the pubs put in the WH - would then have an "incumbent" advantage - without the baggage of bushco.


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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. Nuts. These dems aren't taking any steps. And they were sent there
by the people to take our country back. Because it's ours. The people's. Not theirs.

You can hold hearings from now until hell freezes over. This administration refuses to attend. Take a look at Condi. She's thumbing her nose at everyone. Take a look at Dick. He's telling all of us what he does is none of our business. Take a look at Chimpy. He's given himself royal authority over everything. And Alberto. He's laughing and lying his way through every performance in front of every panel he's called to. And he's still there, in fact, he told his cronies recently that he'll be finishing out his 'term'.

This subject has been posted to death. Excuses have been made and it's just not cutting it anymore.

It's shit or get off the pot time.

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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. This original post should be required reading for all who have been screaming for impeachment now.
For if the "impeachment now" crowd had their way since last January, Bush would have been impeached and acquitted by now. Then what? Impeach him again? And again? Possible? No, timing is everything. If it is worth doing, it is worth doing right. Children throw tantrums and want what they want now, right now, or else. Impeachment is far too important.
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Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. That's fine, but let's see some evidence the investigations have teeth: Enforce
the subpoenas, gawd-freakin'dammit! Anything less lends credence to the suspicion that this is all a charade, that the Democrats are going along with the whole unitary executive/one-party crypto-fascist state that's taking shape.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. they will not enforce anything. the only plan the dem leadership has
is to increase market share in 2008... oops, i mean votes... but it is the same term as if they were selling toilet paper. come to think of it, political parties these days are about of the same worth as toilet paper. maybe they should be used for the same thing.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Remember Watergate? How many years did that take to totally unfold?
So the Democrats are supposed to unwind and expose everything from 6 years of Bush in 6 months?
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I will favor impeachment in 2009 also, but i think its long past time to begin proceedings.
The childish Dem leadership does not want to upset its base (of donors).
The rest of us want the rule of law, and to end this illegal war. (yes, NOW, spoken not as a spoiled child, but as one who cares about what each day brings to the Iraqi people, and US troops, nothing but more death and misery)
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Having impeached Bush by now would have done nothing, nothing to stop the war.
Bush would have been acquitted and would have continued upon his merry way. My own Senator Feingold who has sat on an impeachment jury and was the lone vote against the Patriot Act, standing against even his own party, does not favor impeachment and I agree with his opinion as things stand now. When Pelosi clearly said that impeachment was off the table, what part of that statement did people not understand?
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I certainly agree with you about pelosi, for her, it is not on the table
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 05:57 PM by Tom Joad
the problem is for her is that the people can set the table, or even overturn the table, as they decide.

This idea that the Pelosi et.al. have some secret plan to impeach bush/cheney is hogwash.
they aint going there unless they are forced to.

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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. I don't think that Pelosi has a secret plan, that has been claimed by others on her behalf.
I think she knew then as she still knows now that the time for impeachment to be on the table is not here yet. I know of cases, even one where I live, where DAs were forced by public opinion to bring criminal cases to trial before they are ready, resulting in an acquittal and consequently the public being pissed at the result of what was largely their actions. I am not as familiar with Pelosi as I am with Feingold and if he says impeachment is not a good thing at this time then I will yield to his superior knowledge.
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Exactly, how long are we supposed to wait?
We're already being told it may be too late already since Bush's term may end before anything substantial happens.
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. Next Argument - It Is Too Late Because "I" Should Have Been ...
Edited on Sun Jun-24-07 06:40 AM by emanymton
.
done before.

Your argument will be countered by saying 'the people' waited too long. Impeachment process should have been initiated when the unconstitutional events were first exposed and thus by not impeaching then the actions were acceptable. So the time to impeachment has passed.

One can always make up an excuse for not doing the right thing. The people wait at their own peril. This will not get better with age.
.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. It is not too late and the time has not passed. It is not time yet to be done correctly.
This will get better with age because its potential of success will increase. If impeachment is worth doing, it is worth doing right and with at least a chance of conviction. How would it look if Pelosi had announced that impeachment is off the table and then when the Dems take power immediately and before any investigations say,
"Fooled you, changed our minds". Nixon's resignation came about as a result of years of investigations and Watergate took a long time to unfold. Or is the point impeachment itself without a chance of conviction? The Republicans have already done that with Clinton, holding him up for ridicule knowing there was no chance of conviction.
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corkhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. each Rep needs to be on record about if they support holding lawbreakers in the WH accountable
Edited on Sat Jun-23-07 02:42 PM by corkhead
regardless of the how the vote turns out. Then we need to throw the the enablers out of office, regardless of what party the belong to.
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Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Well said. The public is sick of Decider Guy. We have a right to know whether
the people we've elected to represent us understand and agree with this.
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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
9. So why no impeachment of Gonzo or Cheney now?
Why should Congress defer to anyone else on these tyrants?

In any impeachment investigation, executive privilege ceases to exist.

Nixon lost on a shutout on that one.

Start with impeaching Gonzo, then Cheney.

These two deserve it.

Since Cheney is claiming he isn't part of the executive branch, the Congress pass judgment on him. It is a lesser Constitutional crisis compared with impeaching a president.

We could have the summer of '74 all over again!

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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Interesting that Congress' rating is so low, too, but could that be
because they don't impeach?

Impeaching both Cheney and Bush would be necessary, too. Would it be possible to do that without grinding the country to a halt? I don't know, just asking.
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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Grinding the country to a halt would stop it from its present wrong direction.
Cheney has to go first.

No pardons!
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Phredicles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. "Grinding the country to a halt would stop it from its present wrong direction."
Repeated for truth - THANK YOU!

:applause:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. IA, Cheney is the main culprit
Though his replacement is bound to be a real prize, since Chimpster would pick him. And he doesn't need the consent of the Senate, does he?
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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. A new VP appointment requires approval of both houses of Congress...
although neither is required to hold a vote.

I would be afraid of an attempted recess appointment...
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Thanks, I could not remember from the Ford/Rockefeller era
When we had the first unelected Pres and Veep of the country.

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Hart2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yes, it was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away! n/t
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3waygeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-23-07 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
18. It's too late to worry about
impeaching too soon. Every day the BFEE is in power is another step toward fascism.
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 06:24 AM
Response to Original message
22. Impeachment Will Trigger The Coup d'etat ...
.
Be there any one in USA willing to stage a coup, it is Cheney and Co. Many of Cheney's actions show just how far the administration is willing to go outside of the rule of law. Given how much is at stake, it is a great mistake to think Cheney et al are not willing to commit the final solution within the world of power.

Cheney and shrub have the forces and have shown themselves willing to use them. They have to see how vulnerable they are once they leave office and give up power. These people will not leave themselves and their families open to arrest.

The threat to democracy is real. This junta will not leave peacefully. Once the impeachment process is begun by Congress, a coups d'etat will follow. The coups d'etat will lead to civil war.

So why are we waiting? Impeach.


Bush Lied. People Died. Media Cheered
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
24. "One thing we shouldn't do - is Impeach Too Soon!"
I don't think there's any chance of that happening. If we wait any longer to do it, they will have served out their terms anyway.

TC
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
25. Claiming the need to "prepare" is just another excuse for inaction.
Edited on Sun Jun-24-07 08:33 AM by pat_k
Failure to accuse is complicity. "Not now" is just one of the many excuses and rationalizations for continued derilection.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/22">Like squatters, Bush and Cheney are laying claim to unconstitutional power through openly hostile possession. (With the emphasis on "open.")

Surrendering your property to squatters without a fight is insanity, but that insanity doesn't compare to the magnitude of the insanity of surrendering a nation without a fight. But that is precisely what Members of Congress are doing when they say that the immediate impeachment of Bush and Cheney can't, won't, or shouldn't happen.

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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
28. Yeah, let's give him the oppty to destroy all the rest of the nation
and the Constitution. Let's not rush into this. ANd if we wait long enough, maybe he'll let us have an election and get someone new in office in '09 so we don't even have to bother.

Blech.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 10:47 AM
Response to Original message
29. Maybe the time isn't right for Bush yet, but Alberto and Cheney, come on,
every day they sit there is another day our country is dismantled and replaced with a government we don't recognize under our Constitution. Thing os this administration as a multi headed beast, cut off the heads, one at a time. Impeach Cheney NOW. I dont even think 'the base' wyould object. Hes despised, across the board.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-24-07 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
30. The name of this game is "Running Out the Clock".
The handful of very RICH people who own BOTH Parties have been successful again.

*There will be no impeachment becuase there just isn't enough time before "Election Season". ALL the BS about not having the votes was a very clever delaying tactic. They froze the ball, and we couldn't scream loud enough to make a difference.

*The Money Machine has been protected.

*President HRC WILL continue the Occupation of Iraq for years.

*The privatized Iraqi Oil will make a handful of Corporate Owners VERY rich, but 99% of Americans will continue to be gouged at the pumps.

Mission Accomplished!
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