Let's have a civilized debate about the primary candidates in this thread.

the eternal optimist huh?

:hi:

:popcorn:

This oughtta be good.


TC

If a dead man can beat Ashcroft, JFK can beat anyone in their field.

Kennedy-Johnson "08!

You know, like not keeping profit in the picture for guaranteed universal healthcare?

I want specifics on policies from all the candidates. Not just blanket statements. I don't want "universal, Mitt Romney healthcare".

simply outlined respective platforms in a bulleted list.
You know, policies, stands on various issues, that sort of thing.

and if we outlawed the following terms for this thread: electability, poll, warchest, funding, sponsors.

But after seeing how the waters are around here lately, I'm thinking that its not likely to happen...
We could TRY though :)

for themselves.

And that we'd be discussing the pros/cons of those platforms, not spoonfeeding the platforms to each other.

:shrug:

of the two, the mudslinging is the most counterproductive. However, if a proponent of a candidate makes a good argument or justification of a policy, even if I already know their stand, it might help me better understand the reasons for that position.

civilized debate about the primary candidates and having FUCK NADER in your avatar are at odds with each other.

Last I checked, Nader's not a candidate in the Democratic Presidential Primary.

Oh, and fuck Nader.

that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and I believe the Democratic Party would be wise to win over the maximum number of Green Party voters. While saying Fuck Nader gives a certain amount of emotional satisfaction, I believe ultimately it will only hurt our cause.

Personally, I feel much more antagonistic toward the corporate media than I do Nader.

It still does not preclude having a civilized discussion of Democratic Primary Candidates in this thread. Nader is irrelevant to that, that's all I'm saying.

some of his supporters would/could consider one of our Democratic Primary Candidates, to the extent they would be alienated, I don't believe that would be beneficial to who ever your favorite Democratic Primary Candidate is.

it still doesn't prevent us from having a civilized discussion about the primary candidates in this thread. Whether Nader supporters are alienated or not is irrelevant to that purpose one has nothing to do with the other.

to O.P.'s avatar and the inherent irony as I saw it.

Peace to you,
eggman

At least it's keeping the thread kicked :)

Maybe somebody will reply regarding the candidate's policy that I posted downthread.

lets wait and see how things go. i do think the nations fascination with the clintons has made them into celebrities and that may be hard to beat. we all love bill and that may be enough to get hillary the nomination.

do we not know enough already?

i don't get this 'too early' thing i keep hearing.

But how to start?

Headed out through the maelstrom to dinner - I'll check back later.

De-Authorize the War Now
President Bush has demonstrated neither competence nor honesty nor a sense of reality in his conduct of this war. Congress should immediately assert its constitutional authority and pass a resolution de-authorizing the war under Article I of the US Constitution and the War Powers Act.

Troops Out in Six Months
Once it has de-authorized this war, Congress should set a military pull-out date and appropriate funds accordingly for the re-deployment of troops. My military advisers and I believe we can fully re-deploy within six months of de-authorization. Our continued presence in Iraq only fuels the insurgency, strengthens Al Qaeda, and enables the Iraqi factions to delay making the hard political choices they need to make to end the civil war.

No Residual Forces Left Behind
We must remove ALL of our troops. There should be no residual US forces left in Iraq. Most Iraqis, and most others in the region, believe that we are there for their oil, and this perception is exploited by Al Qaeda, other insurgents, and anti-American Shia groups. By announcing that we intend to remove ALL troops, we would deprive them of this propaganda tool. And once all US troops are out of Iraq, Al Qaeda foreigners will no longer be able to justify their presence there, and the Iraqis will drive them out.


I'm leaving the candidate out for now so their policy can be judged on it's own merit.

illegal occupation of Iraq in #21

DK's platform is stronger on every issue. He has my support.

I'll choose "best" platform over "has some pretty good parts" every time.

Universal Health Care...

Our health care system is broken, and H.R. 676, the Conyers-Kucinich bill, is the only comprehensive solution to the problem. It is also the system endorsed by more than 14,000 physicians from Physicians for a National Health Program. Nearly 46 million Americans have no health care and over 40 million more have only minimal coverage. In 2005 some 41% of moderate and middle income Americans went without health care for part of the year. Even more shocking is that 53% of those earning less than $20,000 went without insurance for all of 2005. In fact, the National Academy of Science's Institute of Medicine estimates that 18,000 Americans die each year because they have no health insurance.

International Cooperation: US out of Iraq, UN in...

In the America of my dreams, the America I see taking root and flourishing under new administration, other nations will encounter an America that abides by Lincoln's precept: "The only lasting way to eliminate an enemy is to make him your friend." We will accommodate rather than alienate, make friends instead of enemies, and employ carrots far more often than sticks. We need an administration that will drain the swamps of hopelessness, exploitation, and humiliation that cause vulnerable individuals to head down the terrorist road. We need leaders who will be both tough on terror and tough on the causes of terror.

We must work to replace the law of force on the world stage with the force of law. By showing such open disdain for the UN Charter and international law during the past three years, we have become in the eyes of many the primary outlaw on the world stage. If we disregard the law of nations, we're left with the law of the despot, where the only constraint on violence is the power and ruthlessness of those who would employ it. Rest assured, in that world we won't be the only ones to use it.

We must immediately move for the United States to re-engage in the important treaties that the Bush Administration has abandoned. We must affirm and ratify treaties, beginning with:

The Kyoto Treaty on Global Climate Change
The Biodiversity Treaty
The Forest Protection Treaty
The Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty
The Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty
The Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty
The Landmine Ban Treaty
The Biological Weapons Convention
The Chemical Weapons Convention
The International Criminal Court

Our country and all nations must review and modify all treaties that reject national sovereignty in the cause of a global corporate ethic that does not respect human rights, workers' rights, and environmental quality standards. This means reviewing the practices and the practical impact of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, the World Trade Organization, the International Monetary Fund, and the World Bank.


Putting America Back to Work IN America...

Our country is facing twin crises: high unemployment and a decrepit infrastructure. At the same time, millions of manufacturing and high-tech jobs are being shipped overseas. I have a plan that will turn our problems around and put Americans back to work in America.

By pulling out of NAFTA, we can return jobs that have been lost, including high-wage jobs in the information technology field. By initiating a WPA-style jobs program that puts Americans back to work rebuilding America, we can create millions of jobs and simultaneously improve our quality of life.

As a nation, we face a predicament of either buy American, or bye-bye America. Unless we cancel the WTO and pull out of NAFTA, corporations will continue to move jobs out of the country and produce goods in developing and third-world nations (with great costs to those countries' workers and environment). In order to buy American, we have to assure that goods are still being produced in America. That's why we must first cancel the WTO and pull out of NAFTA, which have lost us millions of jobs and spurred a soaring trade deficit.

Repeal of the "patriot" act...

It's time for our Party to show some backbone. It's time to stand for the repeal of the PATRIOT Act. As a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, I spoke against it, I voted against it, and I introduced legislation for its repeal. From traveling across America, it's unmistakably clear to me that there is an almost universal rejection of the PATRIOT Act.

Guaranteed Quality Education, Pre-K through College...

The right of every American child to a high-quality free public education is one of America's most treasured principles. We must improve the quality of public education in those schools that are struggling and expand public education to include pre-kindergarten beginning at age 3 for any families that want it, as well as tuition-free college for millions of students.

Full Social Security Benefits at Age 65...

I see a new vision for American seniors. I see a country where all citizens can retire with full benefits at age 65, where social security will never become privatized, and where retirement years won't land in the hands of the stock market. I see an America where equal access and equal rights are obtained by all; where health care is regarded as a human right; and where the people who have lived to see this country grow can continue to grow old with it in peace.

Right to Choose...

Why have a Republican House and Senate never even offered one vote proposing a Constitutional Amendment banning abortion? If the issue were truly important to them as anything but a wedge issue, they would have. The truth is that Republicans have hidden from an honest up or down vote on abortion and will never allow one to take place in the Congress. Instead, they will continue fooling well-intentioned voters who feel strongly about abortion that they "feel their pain," when clearly they do not. Even if the Supreme Court were to do the unlikely and return abortion to the states, it would merely mean that the rich could travel to blue states for abortion, while the poor would have less access to terminating their pregnancies.

The fact is that most Americans, including myself, are uncomfortable with abortions and feel there are too many of them. At the same time, the vast majority of Americans recognize that there are circumstances in which a woman and her doctor should be allowed to make this most difficult decision without government intervention. To return to the days when woman could self-abort without penalty, but to imprison doctors who would help them, seems senseless, especially recognizing that a new abortion law would likely become known as "The Abortions for the Rich-Only Bill."

Privacy and Civil Rights...

The "Patriot Act" is not what American patriots have fought and died for. To allow our Bill of Rights to be nullified without judicial supervision invites tyranny. The Attorney General has been handed unfettered power to wiretap, search, jail, and invade our most sacred right to privacy. The government must not be allowed, without probable cause or warrant, to snoop on our communications, medical records, library records, and student records.

Balance between Workers and Corporations...

Labor has stood almost alone while corporations have cut wages and benefits, slashed working hours, tried to undermine wage and hour provisions, reneged on contracts, and jettisoned retirements through bankruptcy strategies. The current clamor for corporate accountability calls for honesty in stating the numbers, and faithful custody of shareholders money.

There needs to be equal concern for those who created the wealth through their labor, because the attacks on unions are a means of redistributing the wealth upwards. As union membership has declined, the disparity of wealth has increased. Since 1973, union membership has dropped from 24% to 14%. And the share of aggregate income of the poor, the middle class, and the upper middle class has declined. Congress has not passed an increase in the $5.15 minimum wage, even though the inflation-adjusted minimum wage is 21% lower today than in 1979.

People have a right to:

* Have a job.
* Have a safe workplace.
* Get decent wages and benefits.
* Organize and be represented.
* Grieve about working conditions.
* Strike.
* Get fair compensation for injuries on the job.
* Sue if injured by negligent employers.
* Have secure pension and retirement benefits.
* Participate in the political process.

Environmental Renewal and Clean Energy...

The EPA under the Bush Administration has stood for Every Polluter's Ally. The air and the water and the land are viewed by this administration as just another commodity to be used for private profit. We as a nation must turn our efforts towards the great work of restoring our air and our water and our land. We must view our natural resources as the common property of all humanity -- even more, as the commonwealth of all humanity. And so my candidacy arises from a philosophy of interdependence and interconnection, which respects the environment as a precondition for our survival.

I am not tied to any corporate interests that would strip our forests or pollute our air or water. Throughout my career, I have worked for structures of law that protect the environment, and the principles that animate my campaign are principles of sustainability. The principles that animate my life are principles of sustainability.

Restored Rural Comomunities and Family Farms...

Something is wrong when profits of agribusiness corporations skyrocket, but farmers must find off-farm jobs or sell their farms to survive. I believe the United States must implement the following farm policies to benefit farmers, provide our nation with wholesome food, protect our natural resources, and restore our rural communities:

Fair Price and Fair Markets
Cancel NAFTA and the WTO, replacing them with bilateral trade agreements designed to benefit family farmers and workers while protecting the health of communities and the environment.

Market Concentration
Create new markets by actively enforcing existing anti-trust laws and proposing new laws to force divestiture in concentrated markets, breaking apart monopolistic agribusiness companies and shifting farm economics towards higher commodity prices for farmers.

Biotechnology and GM Seeds
Advocate only for responsible farm sector biotechnology, creating an indemnity fund -- financed by the corporations responsible for the technology -- for farmers who incur losses caused by genetically modified organisms (GMOs). To protect farmers, labeling GMO seeds with disclosure and liability information must be required. To protect consumers, food containing GMOs also requires labeling.

Local Food Systems
Shift USDA funding and focus away from the promotion of concentrated intensive and industrial agribusiness. The new focus must benefit family farmers, rural communities, the environment, and consumers, with policies crafted to enable farmers to earn a fair price and to provide safe, nutritious food to all people.

Conservation and Environmental Protection
Strengthen and enforce air and water quality laws to safeguard rural communities from factory farm pollution.

Food Industry Workers and Food Safety
Implement new safety standards in meatpacking and food processing. Worker health and safety protections would be expanded through increased inspections and fines, with criminal charges for employers who cause injury or death to agricultural industry workers.

Rural Communities
Initiate a major new program of investment in rural America, putting thousands to work rebuilding invaluable public assets such as schools, hospitals, libraries, swimming pools, and parks. Teachers, doctors, veterinarians, and other important service providers would be offered incentives to work in under-served areas.


More Details here: http://kucinich.us/issues

---------------

And the plan to end the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq...

1. The US announces it will end the occupation, close military bases and withdraw.

2. US announces that it will use existing funds to bring the troops and necessary equipment home.

3. Order a simultaneous return of all US contractors to the United States and turn over all contracting work to the Iraqi government.

4. Convene a regional conference for the purpose of developing a security and stabilization force for Iraq.

5. Prepare an international security and peacekeeping force to move in, replacing US troops who then return home.

6. Develop and fund a process of national reconciliation.

7. Reconstruction and Jobs. Restart the failed reconstruction program in Iraq.

8. Reparations. The US and Great Britain have a high moral obligation to enable a peace process by beginning a program of significant reparations to the people of Iraq for the loss of lives, physical and emotional injuries, and damage to property. There should be special programs to rescue the tens of thousands of Iraqi orphans from lives of destitution. This is essential to enable reconciliation.

9. Political Sovereignty. Put an end to suspicions that the US invasion and occupation was influenced by a desire to gain control of Iraq's oil assets by A) setting aside initiatives to privatize Iraqi oil interests or other national assets, and B) by abandoning efforts to change Iraqi national law to facilitate privatization.

10. Iraq Economy. Set forth a plan to stabilize Iraq's cost for food and energy, on par to what the prices were before the US invasion and occupation.

11. Economic Sovereignty. Work with the world community to restore Iraq's fiscal integrity without structural readjustment measures of the IMF or the World Bank.

12. International Truth and Reconciliation.

Complete details here: http://kucinich.us/iraqplan

Mine is Pro RKBA

And on Illegal Immigration:
Secure the Border by Hiring and Training Enough Patrol Guards to Cover the Entire Border
We must more than double the number of guards, and provide them with the best surveillance technology available.

Establish a Reasonable Path to Legalization for Many of Those Who are Already Here
This is not amnesty, but is a tough but fair opportunity for legalization and the possibility of citizenship. Most of the illegal workers in the country are hard-working, law abiding people simply pursuing the American Dream. Those who pass a background check, learn English, pay back taxes and fines for being here illegally get the opportunity for legal status. Those that don't must leave.

Crack Down on Immigration Fraud and Illegal Workers
We should offer informant visas and cash rewards for aliens who provide law enforcement with credible information on human traffickers and document forgers. As President, I would establish a fraudulent documents task force to constantly update law enforcement and border officials on the latest fraudulent documents being marketed for entry into the United States. In addition, I believe we must improve identification documentation of immigrant workers.

My favorite part:
Eliminate One of the Prime Attractions for Illegal Workers
We must crack down on employers who knowingly hire undocumented immigrants and enforce the laws already on the books. After establishing a national ID system, employers will have no excuses.

Work in Partnership with the Mexican Government and Nations Throughout Latin America
Mexico is our friend and a major trading partner but they must take action to help reduce the northward flow of illegal immigrants and illegal drugs. We must improve border infrastructure to streamline the movement of goods through the free-trade zones along the border, revitalizing communities on both sides of the border and creating much-needed jobs. The Secretary General of the Organization of American States appointed me as a special envoy to Latin American to promote initiatives that focus on economic development and immigration. Through intensive diplomacy and face-to-face dialogue we must demonstrate to OAS member states that they have an equal responsibility to help solve the immigration problem.

Increase the Number of Legal Immigrants Allowed Into the US Each Year
The number of guest workers allowed at any one time must be based upon the needs of the US economy. Our goal must be to meet demand for jobs that go unfilled by American citizens, and no more.

References to candidate's identity excised.

I like his stand on Iraq...

He's almost close on Health Care but I DON'T LIKE his plan to allow the health insurance mafia to remain in the picture and his criminalization of people who don't "buy health insurance"... Everyone should be covered by one, universal, single-payer plan by virtue of residing in the United States -- just as it is in the civilized world...HR676

Very good on energy policy

Very good on Civil Rights although silent on the misnamed "patriot" act...

Very good on the environment

Good on the economy and Labor...

Good on education although I'd like to see an END TO LOANS -- Free education through college for everyone qualified who wants to go...

Good on foreign policy -- he "gets it" that we have to get along in this world.

----------

Immigration, I think he's too simplistic and exclusionary on immigration.

Check this out:

"A New Green Card Deal" by Mae M. Ngai in The Nation...

"The Senate immigration bill faces opposition from conservatives and liberals alike, but critics on both sides are missing a crucial problem with the legislation. The bill fails to address a fundamental flaw in our current immigration system: the arbitrary and unfair manner in which it restricts the number of green cards issued each year."

I'm afraid the rest is only available to subscribers to "The Nation"... The basic point is that a major problem is the scarcity of green cards available to the most deserving people -- those whose country was stolen from them by another illegal pre-emptive war and occupation...

"We must crack down on employers who knowingly hire undocumented immigrants" - Hell, if we did that we'd never be able to eat out at a restaurant in this town... :shrug:

----------

I truly don't give a shit about the alleged rkbkaoateyw...

but he's HORRIBLE on Crime and Punishment -- pro phony 'war on drugs', against rehabilitation, pro death..

He's a real Neanderthal on this issue (with apologies to Neanderthals everywhere)

http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bill_Richardson_Crime.htm

For that reason he could NEVER get my vote...

Well, I care a great deal about RKBA, so I'l just leave it at that.

On Immigration:



Yes you would. You'd just have to live with being served by American workers being paid a fair wage, and possibly higher prices as a result. I'd pay extra for that.

"being served by American workers" they just aren't being paid a fair wage...

I wouldn't mind paying higher prices for everything if the Workers in America all got a living wage... :hi:

I'd just buy less -- we don't need all that crap anyway...

Here's his press release from 2003:



And from a couple of days ago:



He is also one of the first candidates to call for closing Guantanamo and has called for closing all CIA secret prisons.

He is tough on sentencing for violent criminals and I disagree with him on the death penalty. He has moderated his views on those issues since the survey you link to from 11 years ago. NM only has 2 inmates on death row, none have been executed since he became governor, and both were convicted before he became governor. He did push through legislation legalizing medical marijuana. NM, with his support, also became the first state to grant immunity to anyone that reports or is the victim of a drug overdose. He did support a bill that gives a life sentence to anyone convicted of sexually molesting a child under 9 where it involved penetration. However, I can agree with that tough sentence.

I disagree with him about, and since that's pretty much a gubenatorial issue I'm not too concerned about it.

it's an incredibly important moral issue for me. I can never support a pro-death candidate...

If neither Kucinich nor Gravel get nominated are you going third party then?

But in keeping with the spirit of this thread, it's better than leaving it as it is...

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:)

actual proposals for change from Hillary and Obama...

All I can find at their websites are sound bites and self-back-patting platitudes...

They're very slick candidates with pleasing, droning patter but I just ain't heard any plans from them...

Since one of them is likely to be elected next November, I'd sure like to know what we're getting ourselves into...

about rethinking the War on Drugs, or indeed, any measure to roll back the incarceration explosion in this country?

No?

When one does, he or she has my support. Until then I'm sidelined as usual.

between the related issues of the War on Drugs, Racism, Classism, in addition to poverty issues, homelessness, and Welfare Reform. All of which are designed, by both parties to try to create a permanent underclass of folks who will serve in the new Globalized economy.

Obama is an inexperienced, unelectable homophobe....

Edwards gets haircuts....

Dodd doesn't actually exist....

Kucinich is a communist troll who chants "om" and rubs crystals when stuck for platform ideas....



AAAAAAAAnnnddd...that's pretty much it. Oh! No, wait:

The followers of each said candidate are all, in their own special way, ruining DU or at the very least, "desperate."

Ok! There's your "civilized" debate.

It's probably better to "lobby en mass"; for We the People to put a great deal of pressure on our "representatives" and try to wean them from the corporate teet...

Except for Kucinich and Gravel they are all torn between what are probably realitively humane internal values and the domination of our process by the very rich and their proxies, the corporations and their (our?) money.

That's the Dems. The repukes are just evil...

Try again... :hi:

I admire your attempt LoZoccolo...It was definitely worth trying...

Thanks for the opportunity! :hi:

I know I'm sick of watching myself reacting and detailing the negatives. I'd rather spend time looking for common ground since we know the odds are there will be a Dem in the White House in '09.

Let's not give up on it!!

:bounce:

and Kick...