I love John Edwards, but he needs to either have a better example of what it was like to be poor or

not claim that he was poor as a child.

Tonight on Hardball, Chris Matthews asked him what it was like to be poor and Edwards told the story about how he and his family went to a restaurant but had to leave before ordering because his father couldn't afford it.

I'm sorry, but that's not a very good example of what it's like to be poor. Being poor isn't going to a restaurant, seeing that you can't afford the prices and then leaving, probably to go home to eat a hearty, home-cooked meal. Being poor is not ever setting foot in a restaurant because there's no way the family would have ever been able to afford to eat in one. Being poor is not having enough food in the house to eat, not having the money to buy any, and going to bed hungry more often than not.

John Edwards is a good man with his heart in the right place. And I'm sure his family struggled to make ends meet in his younger days. And I have no doubt that it was humiliating for his father and his family to not be able to afford extras like an occasional restaurant meal that many of us take for granted. But his father had a job, his family was intact, he had enough food to eat and clothes to wear and and decent medical care and didn't have to wonder about where his next meal was coming from or whether he was going to die from a easily-cured illness because of lack of insurance or worry that, any day now, his family was going to be living in their car, if they had one, or under a bridge if they didn't.

Instead of claiming that his experience with not having enough money to eat out in a restaurant is the tale of being poor, he should perhaps say that, while he was never poor in the true sense of the word, he experienced the pain and difficulty of not having enough money growing up and that it has made him much more sensitive and empathetic toward those for whom survival is a day-to-day struggle.

This is not meant as a criticism of John Edwards or his fight against poverty - I admire him greatly. But his response rubbed me the wrong way and I can imagine that I'm not the only one.

And his dad was a supervisor at a mill.

My family was poorer than many (maybe even most) other families, but my parents didn't drink or smoke, my mother sewed and cooked and baked, we wore hand-me-downs and home-made clothes, went to the library, played musical instruments (rented from school or used) and sports (badly) for entertainment and lived very simply. We lived a lot better than families who had much more money than we did. On Sunday evenings in the summer, after church, we even had ice cream from the ice cream shop. We actually took vacations as a family (to visit family and stayed in the cheapest motels). Very rarely and only for good reason, we went to restaurants and ordered the cheapest food on the menu. Edwards' family probably was poor, but like mine very frugal and disciplined about managing money. Poor does not always mean miserable. It means that you worked very hard (I had my first job paid by strangers when I was 7 years old, didn't earn much) and did without things other kids took for granted in order to have the things your parents believed were important. We lived very simply, therefore, we did not appear as poor to other people as we actually were. I had a great childhood, great family, but we were still poor. I remember one time when all the other kids had vaccinations and I didn't because my parents could not pay for it.

almost inappropriate, it just was kind of off the wall. They went into a restaurant and then left? It made no sense to me at all. I remember being poor as a child, I wore hand me downs from anywhere and everywhere, I never went to the movies or out to dinner, we had barely enough to keep a roof over our heads even tho my father worked his butt off.
I really felt turned off by that shallow remark

I got the sense that he was caught a little off-guard by the question - I don't remember him ever claiming that he was poor before. It seemed to me that he was so eager to answer Matthews question, it didn't occur to him to say, "We really weren't all that poor." But I found the example he gave very off-putting.

I was afraid to bring this topic up today for fear of getting bashed. But man, what a weird and totally inadequate response. This will be cannon fodder for Ann and Sean and their ilk.

I myself have left a restaurant because the prices were too high. Kind of embarassing but not that big a deal. And Edwards said he doesn't want anyone to feel that kind of humiliation. But he didn't say that the waiter or manager made fun of them or insulted them. And what is his goal? That every American be able to afford any restaurant of their choosing, even if it's Peter Lugar's steak house in Manhattan?

Just a stupid and poorly thought-out answer to a question he should have anticipated.

since he used the exact same illustration in one of the debates.

>>EDWARDS: Many people in the audience and the viewing audience know that my dad worked in textile mills all his life, and I can remember vividly -- my dad is here tonight. I was born here in South Carolina. I can remember vividly my dad after church once Sunday, when I was about 10 years old, taking us -- it's our whole family -- into a restaurant. I was dressed up.

I was very proud to be there, and we sat, got our menus, looked at the menus, and the waitress came over and my father said, "I'm sorry, we have to leave." I didn't understand. "Why? Why do we have to leave?" And I was embarrassed. I found out when we got outside the reason we had to leave is he couldn't pay the prices that were on the menu. <<

http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/stories/wcnc-042607-krg-debate_part1.1023b3ba.html

I don't believe you really have to be "poor" to have had this experience, as most of us have to make choices everyday about what we can and cannot afford. Even those of us who wouldn't qualify ourselves as poor have to make choices about the things we spend our money on. Not being able to afford the prices offered at a certain restaurant doesn't mean we have to go hungry. Even those of us who are solidly middle class have limits to what we can afford, but it doesn't make us poor.

The story is an interesting one and very compelling - and helps to highlight what it's like to have to struggle in America. But that's very different than using it as an illustration of what it's like to be poor, which is how he used it the other night.

different, as in both instances he is attempting to establish a perception that he personally understands what it was like to be poor. I don't think his illustration works in either setting.

Now, I'm by no means an Edwards fan, but I think he has a better understanding of what it feels like to desire and work for the "finer things in life" than for what it feels like to be really poor.

From the debate:

EDWARDS: ... But if the question is, Brian, whether I live a privileged and blessed lifestyle now, the answer to that's yes.

A lot of us do. But it's not where I come from. And I've not forgotten where I come from.

He then proceeds with his restaurant story, which as you put it in your OP is "not a very good example of what it's like to be poor. Being poor isn't going to a restaurant, seeing that you can't afford the prices and then leaving, probably to go home to eat a hearty, home-cooked meal. Being poor is not ever setting foot in a restaurant because there's no way the family would have ever been able to afford to eat in one. Being poor is not having enough food in the house to eat, not having the money to buy any, and going to bed hungry more often than not."

Yet it is difficult to listen to the story -- given either context -- and not conclude that he is attempting to convey the impression that he was poor. I think the conclusion to your OP sums the issue up pretty well.

I thought a better example would be the millions of children in this country who go to bed hungry.

you don't even bother going to restaurants! I agree!

:kick:

and realizing the prices would break my budget!

I'm not "poor" so to speak but close to being poor. One wrong move could break me (medical crap). If I go to a restaurant and see a very highly priced menu, I leave too!

It was a very poor example to give. I would have liked it better if he'd said something like, "I wanted to join the Boy Scouts but couldn't because there was no money to buy the uniform, etc." Maybe people could relate to that more than a restaurant!

Or better yet, "I needed dental work done and there was no money for it." I think you get my drift. Edwards has never been poor IMO. NONE of the candidates have ever really been poor. The only exception I see possibly is Kucinich.

:kick:

Growing up I never felt we were poor. We had enough to eat, a good roof over our heads, comfy beds to sleep in, enough clothes to keep us comfortable in any kind of weather. Yet not once do I ever remember us going to a restaurant other than McDonald's. That was just not even a consideration. And yet I never felt deprived....

we also experienced moments in which we didn't have enough money to pay the bills and, for instance, to do things other people could afford. That's pretty much normal for the middle class. However, I never went to bed hungry. There was always something on the fridge, even if it was some rice with two fried eggs or SPAM (in the Hispanic Caribbean, that's something people eat when they don't have meat). I never knew as a child what it was to go hungry to bed.

Truly poor people know very closely what hunger is.

I can't tell you HOW many nights my mom made SPAM and fried potatoes, and I grew up not in the Hispanic Caribbean, but in Southern California. I had no clue at the time that it was all my parents could afford. We also did the "breakfast for dinner" thing because eggs and pancakes were cheaper than meat. My younger sister and I actually looked forward to SPAM nights. When I was in elementary school in the sixties I think school lunches were about 35 cents. I would regularly have to go to the school office and "borrow" lunch money for the day. At the end of the month my mom would send a note with me to school and they would "excuse" the debt.

One of my first "dining out" memories was when they opened a Sizzler in my town. Steak and lobster for something like $4.99. The only person who got steak was my dad. We got hamburgers. My mom was very mad. Not because she couldn't have steak, but because she'd have to fudge a little when the bills came due at the end of the month.

I still love SPAM though, to this very day. I'll never think of it as "poor folk's food".

Has anyone here ever had homemade Thousand Island dressing? My mom made it with mayonnaise, catsup, and pickle relish. MMMMM good!

bother to sit his entire family in a restaurant, have them all review the menu, and only then realize that there wasn't enough money to stay and eat there.

I would imagine that most really poor folks either would try to find out how much a dinner out might cost prior to setting foot in a particular restaurant with the entire family in tow; in other words, I would imagine it to be a planned affair very special to all, with the money to pay for the treat well set aside in advance as the first priority prior to the outing.

However, if this is the Edwards' "we were so poor" story, so be it. :shrug:

As I said, we weren't anywhere near what I'd consider poor...Yet going to a restuarant wasn't even considered a possibility.

with six siblings and a single mother on welfare. My hubby is close in age to John Edwards. He saw the interview and started laughing. He said that the only time he and his siblings ate "out" was when the kids were sent on summer vacations to his aunt's house (she was middle class) in Modesto. They consider eating at her house instead of at their home to be "eating out". I don't think they accepted food stamps at the restaurants...even back then.

He also said that back then, due to the lack of fast food restaurants (other than McDonalds), going out to eat was something relatively foreign to most folks, including those who were not so poor. He felt that Edwards' father not having enough money after sitting his family down in a restaurant was the result of bad planning more than anything else.

I am about the same age as the Edwards. We didn't have a McDonalds until I was in high school.

For most of grade school, it was just my Mom and me in a small factory town in the middle of the state. She supported the two of us working in the office at one of the plants. She made close to minimum wage. We lived in a one bedroom apartment which cost $62.50 a month plus utilities. We ate out a lot. She said it cost about the same to run the gas stove as it did to get the blue plate special for a dollar down at the corner "Sweet Shop."

I think, though, that she was tired from working all day and needed a break before coming home and sewing into the evening. If she wasn't making clothes for us, she was making prom dresses or wedding dresses so she could afford some of those little extras like our old car. We lived within our means, but couldn't afford to save much.

We were lucky her job provided insurance because I spent several weeks in the hospital between first and second grade. She spent a couple of weeks in the hospital when I was in fourth grade. Insurance covered the hospital bills, but the doctor visits and prescriptions were out of pocket.

Wealth is such a relative thing. Most of the other kids in school lived in houses and had mothers who stayed home all day. I thought kids with fathers were wealthy, but in our town, many people were poor, some were just poorer than others.

less who is poor. The home John Edwards lived in as a child
is not exactly middle class in the Carolinas.

No John Edwards was not dirt poor. He never claimed to be.

not lower middle class, or even working class. Hid dad worked in a mill, then was promoted to supervisor, and his mom was a postal worker I believe. I doubt that his family had any less than most of the country in 50's. He moved out of the pink house before he was 1 years old, and I've never seen any other pics of his childhood homes, so I'm not sure which house you're referring to.

You might be very surprised if you knew who was really rich and who was really poor in terms of income and savings.

John Edwards' parents both worked, one as a postal worker and the other a supervisor in a mill. I grew up with a father who worked as a mechanic and a mother who didn't work at all until I reached my teens. I also was the first person in my family to attend college. I seriously doubt that the Edwards' family had less income than mine and yet, my family has never considered itself poor.

I grew up in the NE, and my entire neighborhood consisted of working class families. It wasn't easy for any of us, but we weren't poor.

or don't have at the moment. It isn't just cash flow. It is a matter of assets. What do you own? What savings do you have? What do you have that you could sell that would have value? In terms of cash flow, it is a matter of how long could you live if you did not have any income coming in? People who live hand to mouth are poor. A lot of people right now think they are middle class, but in fact, if they lost their job or couldn't work or had to retire next month, they would be in very sorry shape. They are surviving, but they are actually poor. They have no pensions or their pensions are a sham.

If you don't have assets and mucho savings at retirement time, you will find out who poor you are/were. Come visit L.A. and see how the rich live in their enclaves. Then you will realize that you were very poor.

but by those standards, I expect that a good percentage of the country could be considered poor.

Real poverty is in the moment; not being able to feed and cloth your kids properly without assistance, today kind of poor. That's the kind of poverty I thought Edwards was addressing.

to pay for care for a major illness or surgery can be just hours or days away from the kind of poverty you describe. I worked for many years for a project that assisted homeless people. A person who has no savings or assets cannot even afford good mental health care in case of a severe depression or nervous breakdown. Many Americans believe they are "middle class" when, in fact, they are on the brink of homelessness or having to move in with family members. How long can you live without your paycheck? That is the question.

homeless people for years.
It is. Especially who you don't have good relationships with your family or your family is poor.

After all, that's his "bread and butter," so to speak.

I like Edwards too. But sometimes I wonder why he didn't for the sake of his political image stay in his more moderate but still luxurious house and continue to do all those things that more moderate Americans do. Most middle class Americans can understand that wealthy live a different lifestyle.

What we average Americans don't understand is the truly ostentatious lifestyle that the really wealthy live, and how do the mega rich relate to our problems?

As much as I like Edward's message, this really bothers me because it muddies his message. If Edwards wants to win and project his message it must not be tainted with issues of credibility.

Based upon the DU feedback I received when I questioned Gore, apparently DUers shouldn't question the candidates and their actions. Upon this I strongly differ as those who expect a vote and contributions should expect criticism when it is appropriate.

He earned a lot of money - the old fashioned way - and has every right to spend it how he chooses. And, unlike many people who achieve great wealth, he's working hard to help others also have a chance at the American dream. I see no reason for people to take a vow of poverty in order to be allowed to help others get out of poverty.

I ain't mad at him. He deserves to buy a big old house if he wants to. I just wish he had not tried to claim that not being able to afford to eat in a restaurant was an example of what it was like to be poor.

but in that Hardball (softball interview that it was) moment.......when John Edwards could have taken that question and shined by employing a "teaching moment" on this issue that is so "dear to him".....and to allow all watching to understand the pain of being "Poor"...when he could have said something profound, impactful and lasting, instead his story almost trivialized what poverty is all about....because certainly, it ain't really about not being able to eat at some restaurant. That would be the least of the problem and hardship a poor person experiences.

so much more effective if he had shifted the question and answer to focus on real poverty.

It's not a big deal and it's certainly not going to matter one way or another in the campaign - I just wish he had answered differently and hope that he'll not fall into this trap again in the future.

I don't even see the predominant issue today as real poverty.

It is what is happening to the quality of life and the available jobs for most Americans from middle class on down...while the top 1% increases their wealth and power exponentially.

When I go to Wal*Mart I often think to myself there is borderline povery here, but it has happened so gradually that many don't recognize it. We desperately need politicians that will fight to restore this middle class and they must understand their problems such as healthcare, need for multiple wage earners per family, high mortgages, unavailability of money for higher education, cost of day care, school, double digit property tax increases, etc.

The middle class and below are stuck in their economic class much more than they were 40 years ago.

We need a populist politician that is willing to wage war with the moneyed elite in order to gain back what most Americans have lost. I'd like to see Edwards work towards that end.

But I do agree this isn't what really being poor is. Really being poor is wondering if you'll be able to eat at all each day or have a roof over your head.

because it might have been the only solid meal that you'd eat that day. Now, that's poor. :(

But that's a far cry from being poor.

That for the 8th grade graduation (I don't know if this is done here in the states), my school decided to make a very big party in a lavish hotel ballroom in San Juan. By then, my parents were struggling with debts, and when I told them my classmates were talking about getting all dressed up with tuxedos and all that stuff (given the location of the event), my parents told me the only way I could go was with the clothing I already had (nothing fancy, no tuxedos). My dad, seeing in my eyes that I truly wanted to check out the party, decided to take me. I just had a long sleeve shirt and some Dockers with some old shoes to close the deal.

When I got there, my classmates, all dressed up in some nice looking tuxedos, looked at me from head to feet and from feet to head, and laughed. I could not afford some appropiate clothing for the event, and I left the place crying in shame. What I hadn't noticed is that my dad was almost crying too... because he couldn't afford to get his son dressed for his graduation party.

:hug:

like going to restaurants or taking vacations."

Poor is "I was undernourished . . . lost a couple of teeth because of gum disease . . . we lived in the car for awhile . . . I couldn't go to school in the winter because I didn't have any shoes . . . my mother wouldn't let me play any sports because if I got hurt, we couldn't afford the hospital bills . . . my father spent time in jail for stealing food for us . . . I almost died from asthma because we couldn't afford inhalers . . . my little sister got lead poisoning because she was so hungry, she ate the peeling paint . . . my brother and I had to go live in a foster home because my parents couldn't afford to keep us . . ."

Nasty, but it was filling.

Sadly, it's not just him. Many people can't grasp the concept of real poverty, or eve one step below them on the socioeconomic ladder. Even America's poor as bad as they have it, have a hard time comprehending conditions in Sudan for example.

why he is having problems and not connecting with the voters. Why, with his solid and well thought out ideas on the issues he is not clicking.
He is a decent guy, has alot of real passion to help the poor and distressed, has good proposals and would make a fine president.
I have tried to figure it out and cannot.

MATTHEWS: What's it feel like? I've never been poor. You have. I`m not talking about the haircuts and all the nonsense. I`m talking about your own personal experience as a human being. You know what it is like to be poor. Tell the people watching right now who have not been what it is like.

EDWARDS: Well, you go into a restaurant with your family and you sit down, and everybody -- especially when you`re young -- that is the only time I was poor, Chris. And you sit down, and then you start to order something, and your father says, we have to leave, because we can`t pay for this. And you get up and leave, and it is humiliating. It feels humiliating when you are young. And it is particularly humiliating to see your mother and father have to go through that.

So we do not want anybody to be treated without dignity and respect in this country, which is what is part of what motivates me to this cause.

MATTHEWS: Well, keep talking about it, senator. Thank you very much for coming on HARDBALL. Senator John Edwards.

He claimed his family was more blue-collar middle class. Which they were. If Matthews asked him what it was like to be poor Edwards only failing was in not correcting the question.

Please folks, let's not make something out of nothing.

"The son of a mill worker"......
Googled and found 547,000 hits on his name and his moniker.

What is that supposed to have us "conjure" up? :shrug:

Throughout his speech, Edwards emphasized that America does not have to be a land of haves and have-nots — that "we can do something about that."

He offered his own life as proof. "Some of you might remember that I'm the son of a mill worker..."
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/10/26_edwards.shtml
---------
The family was poor and moved often as his father, a mill worker, searched for work.
http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/EdwardsJohn.htm
---------
Edwards, his party's 2004 vice presidential nominee, has often repeated his rags-to-riches personal story -- the son of a mill worker who became one of the country's leading trial attorneys. "I come from nothing and now I have everything," Edwards said when questioned about the topic on an Iowa Public Radio program.
http://www.radioiowa.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=687EE1BA-9CEF-3DD6-CAEC1F418E3F021F
----------
He constantly says he’s the “son of a mill worker,” and to hear him tell it, he pulled himself up from poverty so crushing it evokes images of shoeless Li’l Abner. His “Two Americas” rally-pleaser gets much of its power from this poor-boy autobiography, but in making this tale his central campaign theme, Edwards gave his family history a cosmetic make-over, like the one he gave his name.
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Jan04/Ireland0129.htm
----------


When you look at this photo, what conclusion does one arrive at in reference to his childhood? :shrug:

Edwards has the most detailed plan to help people out of poverty than any I have seen this election cycle. Whether he was poor or close to poor or lower middle class, what's the difference? He still cares about the issue.

Al Gore cares about global warming and he hasn't been effected by it first hand. Michael Moore cares about gun control, but he hasn't been shot. Why is it when someone talks about poverty, they are always attacked for not being poor enough to talk about poverty?

I know you say you are not criticizing Edwards or his fight against poverty, but it seems like you are doing just that. His answer was honest. He may not have been poor enough for you, but at least he's not making shit up.

that he was poor. I'm glad he's talking about poverty. But in answering the way he did, he made it sound as if he really doesn't understand the issue he's talking about. I don't think that's the case, but there are plenty of people out there who aren't paying as close attention to him as we are and would certainly walk away with a very negative impression - like the person who claims they understand what it's like to be black because they once went to a party where they were the only white person.

This forum is tearing the heart out of each other and the candidates. It is sickening. One attack after the other.

There is nothing wrong with being rich if you care about the poor. And he does.

That was one of his very best interviews. Why do this?

I never claimed there's something wrong with being rich or that a rich person can't care about the poor. And I'm certainly not "tearing the heart out of" anyone.

Yes, it was an excellent interview - until the last question, which I think he screwed up. And I hope that, in the future, he won't go down that road.

If you have a problem with my pointing that out, there's nothing I can do about it.

Some people were making the exact same comments about their favorite candidate in 2003, attacking everybody else for pointing out a difference of opinion, and then blaming the others for the terrible tone of the debate. :eyes:

Don't worry about it. You were spot on. I've heard him tell that story before and you were exactly right. Poor people think about a special treat like a pop with the Saturday night movie on TV - not going out to dinner. I don't know why he has to pretend he was poor, he clearly wasn't.

And you can not blame that on me. There is pure antagonism toward anyone else's candidate.

Though we are supporting Edwards, we are not passionate enough about anything right now to fight about them.

I am defending Dean over that WP article which is insulting to both him and Obama.

Every other post here is filled with attacks.

But hey, it is not me.

It was a great interview, and the nitpicking is over board here.

Oh, yeh, all kinds of redux here.

Aren't you being a little sensitive?

I had watched the interview thinking it was nice to see an interviewer be courteous.

It was encouraging to see it since he is being so battered over hair and home.

I was speaking in terms of how this board is becoming.

It is turning people off who really have not decided yet.

It was a simple observation about Edwards' confusion about his personal poverty. Yes there is a ton of ridiculous and vitriolic garbage against all the candidates, from all supporters. But this silly little post wasn't one of them. No need to turn it into a personal vendetta.

Didn't you.

Most people in America does not believe that people/children go to bed hungry in this country, they just don't believe it. Most people think that the homeless are all drug users and alcoholics and they chose that life. Most people haven't been touched by poverty, so they have no idea what it is. Having an embarrassing moment at a restaurant, is something that most people can relate to.

People can't even decide who's middle class, look below:

But if you ask the American people, you'll get yet another response. According to statistics from the National Opinion Research Center, as reported by Baker, large numbers of American define themselves as "working class" or "middle class," including:

* 50% of those families who earn between $20,000 and $40,000 annually
* 38% of those families who earn between $40,000 and $60,000 annually
* 16.8% of those families who earn over $110,000 annually
http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/middleclassoverview.html

The census bureau says $40,000 to $95,000, but The Drum Major Institute for Public Policy says it's between $25,000 and $100,000. (From article dated 2004)


Yes, we were poor, we had government cheese, powdered milk, that spam stuff, and some canned pork stuff with gravy, which I actually liked. We also got Christmas and Thanksgiving food baskets from the church, every year. We didn't have a lot of money, but when you are a kid, it doesn't much matter. You see, we did eat in a restaurant a few times, it was a really big deal when we did. Being made to leave would have made a big impression on me, and I don't think I would ever forget it. One of the reasons, is because you would have been slapped in the face on how poor you are. As a kid you never really deal with money, so you never know.

Being poor and being impoverished, I think are different. You can be working and be poor, but I think poverty is a step below. When you are poor, you still have hope that you can work your way out of it, when you're impoverished, I think you are more likely to accept that this is the way it is, and deal with it.

zalinda

then that would indicate that the scenario does not equate to poor.

When people like Edwards, or even just the upper 10%, paint a picture of poverty that is actually the median income, then we've got a problem. We can't allow it. People have got to know the truth of the economic situation of the majority of Americans because if they keep deluding themselves into thinking the median income folks are actually poor folks - then what the hell is going to happen when the 20-30% of real poor folks get fed up. The rest of the country isn't going to know what hit them.

Then things gradually got better for his family.

At least he's speaking about the poor instead of pretending they don't exist.

and the way that he answered it specifically in his media appearance today on Hardball.

from free lunches, section 8 housing, food stamps and afdc to a profession income I can tell you that $400 haircuts and true working class values don't mix.

People here blew me off but I just don't think they get it. Working class people just don't respect that kind of thing in themselves or others. At least not any that I've ever known.

I like John Edwards but I think he's woven himself a bit of a tale.

I was called by his campaign to donate $$ today but I told them if he had enough money for $400 haircuts he didn't need my hard earned cash. (I gave $2000 to Wes Clark last cycle and several hundred to John Kerrey - so I am no stranger to donations). Believe it or not, the caller expressed agreement and didn't give me a hard time.

I told him that a politician's actions and rhetoric have to match to earn my money.

Thus far, I haven't donated a dime to any candidates since '04. I fed up with all of them except maybe Gore and a few others, and none of them are running :sad:

It looks like Wes Clark will be entering the race in about 6 weeks from now.



http://securingamerica.com

It is a very real story. It is an example of something that really happens to poor people. People who have been poor can relate to for once thinking that you might go someplace to eat like everyone else and then facing the crushing embarrassment of having to leave because of finances.

John was poorer when he was young and his situation got better as he got older. The young aren't always fully aware of their family's financial situation but they know when it effects them. His story is one of a young person that felt gravely embarrassed and it stuck in his memory. I bet there are a lot of others that have similar memories and want to do something to help.

"What was it like being poor?" This story does not come close to describing what it's like to be poor and, unfortunately and surely, unintenionally, sounds like he was trying to characterize himself as something he was not. This story is an important one in a different context. But equating not being able to afford eating in a restaurant with his family with being poor is quite off-base and can feed an already growing perception, however, inaccurate, that he does not really get it.

I hope, in the future, he's much more careful.

I honestly don't know how poor he was when he was younger. He may have not lived in the abject poverty the most people associate with being poor. He may have not had to struggle to eat but he may have had to have gone without many of the things that most people take for granted. If he would have given a stock answer of "It was scary not knowing where your next meal is coming from" or something similar and someone would find out that he wasn't really that poor it would have only made him look worse.

My mother is a little older than John Edwards and grew up poor. Her family never had to struggle to eat but had to go without many things that most take for granted. She had to wear her older brother's hand me downs throughout her elementary school years, and she couldn't afford school supplies (back then they didn't have aid programs for such a thing). She's told me stories about having to take classroom projects home to paste with a flour/water concoction her mother made because they couldn't afford a bottle of glue. It's little things like that that stick in people's memories. Things that help them relate.

When I said something to my mother about how I didn't think John's answer was that great she disagreed. She said she knows where he's coming from. She remembers the embarrassment of not having nice things like everyone else and having people look down on her and her family, and when she heard that answer she smiled because she could relate to it.

2000 CENSUS DATA ROBBINS NC US

MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD INCOME ($ IN PREVIOUS YEAR)

Median household income
Robbins: $28,828
NC: 39,184
US: 41,994

At the time of the 2000 census, the per capita income in Robbins was $14,468, compared with $21,587 nationally.

12% of Robbins residents age 25 and older have a bachelor's or advanced college degree.

http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/incomeOverview.php?locIndex=19599


That's the 2000 census. What do you think the median income was when JE was a kid? You even been to small (one horse) mill town?

Solidly middle class my @ss.

"sorta true" if you turn your head the right way and use the right cadence in the words. And if you don't know diddly about textile mills and ultra small southern towns...

Not even the N&O is above "politics". Don't forget Jessie Helms OWNED that state for decades.

than absolute poverty. The poorest in the US are among the worst off by this measure, because they are so much worse off than other Americans.

The humiliation of having to leave the restaurant will resonate with anyone who's actually been poor. What if the restaurant was McDonald's?

would know why they had to leave the restaurant, even McDonalds, without even asking. The shame of not having money is with you every single day. The story really doesn't resonate at all, not to anybody who has actually been poor.

what?

I was poor (unemployed, homeless) as an adult, not as a kid, and the story rings true enough to me.

We went out once a year to a restaurant. My parents made sure to have enough money before they walked into a restaurant, blue collar workers just know to do that. I've also never had to leave a restaurant due to lack of money, if there's any doubt, I don't go in. My kids never had to ask why we couldn't go here or there, just like I never had to ask why we didn't get ice cream with the rest of the neighborhood kids. Poor kids know. I suggest if you never did - you have never been truly poor.

Your personal experience is not the "gold standard."

since you say that you know the story wouldn't resonate with someone who has been poor. So, maybe you can give us an example of how you'd answer the question. Then, some of us could understand better.

I think the story works fine, but I was never poor when I was a child. The only time I was poor was when I finished school and ate mac and cheese and ramen for a year. But, I don't count that as poor because I knew it was temporary and I knew my parents would never let me starve.

A poor kid knows poor without even having to ask. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that. And no, I wasn't really dirt poor, there are plenty of DUers poorer than I was. I never went without a meal, never in low income housing, never evicted or had the power turned off. But even so, I knew we didn't have money for any frivilous stuff. And I know my parents never breezed into a restaurant on some Sunday without knowing exactly how much the meal would cost. Poor folks just don't do that. If you don't get it, I can't make you get it through osmosis. You do or you don't.

I work in a classroom full of dirt poor kids and they can come up with breath taking rationalizations for the way things are. Instead of realizing they've been evicted from their trailer court they'll blame it on noisy neighbors. When asked why they only had a syrup sandwich for dinner, they'll say "I like syrup sandwiches". They think it's the greatest thing that their Dad works at Wendy's because he brings home leftovers every night when he gets off work. It never occurs to them that they can't afford anything else.

It's the events that make them realize that hurts them the most. That's why I can actually see something like the restaurant story actually sticking.

*sigh* It's sad to me that you don't know they know, and don't know the pain they feel when they have to tell you these lies. I really just can't believe you just wrote that, to tell the truth.

Let me see, what's more shocking. Having to leave a restaurant - or having to eat spoons of sugar to stave off the hunger, and then tell the teacher you prefer sugar for dinner.

Good lord, get a clue.

... or dislike for another turns them into an insulting ass. You don't know me, you don't know these kids, you sure as hell can't relate to their situation. So save your bullshit condescension, and belligerent attitude. "They know" is too easy of an answer especially for a classroom of 3rd graders that want to believe their parents are heroes.

Kids love their parents and will believe anything to avoid having to see reality. They want to believe that their parents are providers, and are "just as good" as everybody else's parents. If they are told that they aren't going to eat dinner until Daddy gets home at midnight because he's bringing food from Wendy's with him, that's what they believe. They don't think it's because they can't afford anything else. If everyone is eating syrup sandwiches they think nothing of it because "syrup tastes good". If they get taken away from their parents it's because the social worker is lying about them. It's whenever the rationalizations run out, and the reality of their situation hits them that their embarrassment starts to scar them.

Nobody ever said that having to leave a restaurant was the worst fate to ever befall a child. I personally have seen a lot worse. But, finally realizing that you are poor, and knowing the embarrassment of having others look down on you because of it is real. It's a situation that all who've faced it know and can relate to. And, it's good that at least one Democratic candidate can at least remotely relate.

not those 3rd graders. It's perfectly clear.

I'm sure that they have stories to tell as well. :eyes:

Kucinich recalled "core moments in my own life when teachers reached out a hand when I was about to fall through those cracks, and they lifted me up."

One of those times was in sixth grade, when other children made fun of the turquoise pants he wore for six months because of his family's poverty. A teacher eased his pain by bringing in a set of clothes for him. And in 10th grade, when he planned to drop out of school, it was a teacher who reached out and persuaded him to stay.
http://www.nea.org/annualmeeting/raaction/07kucinichspeech.html

Obama has never claimed to have been poor, but certainly he wasn't wealthy by any means......

So no, John Edwards is not the only one who can remotely relate to the issues of poverty.

I didn't even mention Obama or Kucinich, and I definitely did not say that John Edwards is the only one that can relate to the issues of poverty.

I said "it's good that at least one Democratic candidate can at least remotely relate.", as opposed to Republican candidates and all other politicians that benefit from heredity. It's good to know that lower and middle class citizens can actually make it anymore. It would be great if more candidates would speak about first hand experiences with not having money, and make poverty a priority. I don't care who does it as long as for once since LBJ poverty actually gets addressed.

just not enough to eat at the particular restaurant on that particular day. Truly poor people don't have enough - or any at all - disposable income to even CONSIDER taking their family out to eat at a restaurant - be it an upscale establishment, the local Friendly's or McDonald's. And not only don't they have enough to take their family out to eat, they don't have enough food at home to feed their children, don't have the money to get any more, and can't do anything about it.

The story that John Edwards told last night describes how hard it is to not have enough money to have the little extras, not what it's like to be poor. He has never claimed or even suggested that he didn't have enough food to eat, or proper clothes to wear or ever worried about having a roof over his head. That's why I was a little surprised that he took the bait and offered up this anecdote to tell what it was like to be poor. I really think that he just didn't think it through and gave a snap answer to Chris Matthews' question by telling a story he has frequently told in the past. But it was a mistake and I hope he doesn't go there again since it could make him look either shallow or opportunistic, of which he is neither.

"they don't have enough food at home to feed their children, don't have the money to get any more, and can't do anything about it."

Church food lockers, food banks, as well as food stamps these days prevent starvation. The problem in these times is "food insecurity" which is not, as some think, a euphemism of "hunger" but, rather, describes the sufficiency of food, but the insufficiency of nutritional food. Food lockers and food banks, in my experience, provide a lot of food to help you feel full, and it prevents starvation, but does not prevent malnourishment over time.

I'm not saying John Edwards was poor; he sounds more like he may have been working poor or lower middle class. I don't have enough information about his life to tell. What I'm objecting to is your description of what a "truly poor" person lives like. Poor is relative. What is poor in the U.S. is not poor in India, but it's still poor.

and then finding out he couldn't with being poor. That's not poor.

Yes, we have various types and degrees of deprivation in our society, but it was my understanding that Edwards' crusade was on behalf of the poor, not those who can't afford to eat in certain restaurants.

I will go to the mat to fight for people to live in dignity, for children to have enough nutritious food to eat, for people to have decent housing, clean water, quality education and affordable health care. And I assume that's what Edwards is trying to do with his fight against poverty.

But, frankly, with all of the other causes on my list of priorities, I can't get myself all worked up to go on a political crusade to fight for the right of every family to eat in the restaurant of their choosing.

things can change, like restaurants can up their prices. We don't go out often, but last week we went to a Denny's type of restaurant, and I was shocked as their prices had gone up about $2.00 per meal. If I had saved for months to buy that meal, and went in there to eat, I would have had to get up and walk out too.

It may not have been the best answer that Edwards could have given, but we know that it was true. We know that he isn't so rehearsed that he has stock answers.

And no, I haven't made my mind up yet on a candidate.

zalinda

it rang false.

As far as I can see, the Edwards were no more poor than my family was, and we would never have complained being poor. Sure, they were not rich. They probably could not buy everything they wanted as rich families do, but this is not the definition of being poor. This is the common lot of many, many middle class Americans.

So, as much as I find it good for Edwards to focus on poverty, I am tired to hear him cast him as having grown up in poverty. And I was quite surprised a few months ago to hear Elizabeth Edwards describe their life when they started working as modest, then cite a salary that is the equivalent of $100,000 a year nowadays. May be they need to reevaluate what being poor means.

you didn't really know you were poor, my son sure didn't. I didn't. For me it was normal to get government food, to get food baskets, I never once thought that I was poor. I just knew that I didn't get as much as some other kids at school. It wasn't until I was grown and looked back could I really tell. That's the thing, if you never had a lot of money, how would you know what it felt like. How would a black person know what it's like to be white, or visa versa.

I really only learned about poor when I got married to a guy from a wealthy family. No wonder he was always upset with me, I couldn't throw anything away, just in case we needed it. He never worried about it because he could always buy it again. And yes, we are divorced. Too bad I wasn't a vindictive bitch, because I got very little out of the settlement. Oh well, I probably wouldn't have done anything different.

zalinda

I knew I didn't have electricity when all the other houses in my neighborhood did.

I knew they had radiators and I had kerosene stove heat.

I knew they had television sets I could watch if I wanted.

I knew they had carpeting in their living rooms instead of linoleum.

I knew the other kids had warm winter coats when they gave me one they'd outgrown.

I knew they went on family vacations and I never once did.

I knew their mother's washing machines didn't have wringers.

I knew they ate roasts on Sunday after church.

I knew when I heard the ice cream truck, unless I was having a very lucky day, I'd be watching out the window.

There are a million ways I knew I was poor when I was a kid. I was a kid, I wasn't an idiot.

I lived in a working class neighborhood, not a middle class or rich one, and not a terrible slum, either, just an ordinary place in the same era as John Edwards, when people worked their families into the middle class, if they could get there. Two working parents was the fast track and factory jobs were GOOD jobs. Until then, you lived your life, your ordinary American life along with everybody else, trying to get where you were going. I don't romanticize poverty, because one thing you know if you've been poor is what poverty is, but you can be poor and have a lot of love and a lot of laughs and, while remembering you were deprived of this or that, still feel you had a good childhood though poor, which I and my brothers and sisters all do feel.

But John Edwards experienced a childhood humiliation in a restaurant. It was painful, I am sure, and he mythologized it as kids do, but it doesn't give him any special insight or understanding of poverty or any credentials to having been poor. This is displayed by the off note sounded in the restaurant tale (menus?) or not having the money to pay the hospital bill (until payday) or living in a cramped pink house (until they could move into a better one) -- not trapped, in other words. Just regular life. John Edwards doesn't have to have been poor in his childhood. He's just got to understand that he wasn't before he's going to sound real on poverty.

I guess what's different is that everyone in the neighborhood was in the same situation, or at least I thought they were. We did have electricity, but an oil heater in the "dining room". I lived with a leaky roof in our bedroom. I used to have to sleep with a pot on my bed. One day when I came home from school, there was a huge chunk of wet plaster board on my bed. There was no heat in our room and the wood floor was rippled from all the water that had leaked onto the floor. I remember times when we didn't have money for oil and the house was heated with an open oven door.

We always had hand me downs, but one Christmas we got winter coats, which was a very big deal. Tangerines in the Christmas stocking, very big deal. We never went on vacation either, everything we got we got second hand, I don't remember if we had carpet or not. I still didn't realize we were poor. Poor to me were the kids in China, who didn't have enough to eat, so I had to finish everything on my plate.

I guess I've always be a pragmatist, I dealt with what life gave me, and was thankful that it wasn't worse. Although, it was a little embarrassing when my shoe fell apart getting onto the school bus, and walking home with just one shoe on. Thank goodness the bus stop wasn't that far from home, or my foot would have frozen off.

zalinda

The problem is not that he was born in a middle class family, but that he is trying to make it look worse than it was. Many many Americans grew up in situations just like him, and they do not qualify themselves as poor. It is as if he thought he needed to be poor to talk about poverty.

If you are truly poor, you wouldn't need to look at a menu to know you couldn't afford to eat out. Certainly not anyplace that hands you a menu.

In 2004, John Edwards spoke with incredible eloquence about poverty and how it affects people in a real sense.

Now, I want to take just a moment on this night of extraordinary celebration of a great political victory to talk just for a moment about the millions of Americans who will not go home, go to bed and celebrate tonight, the millions of Americans who struggle every single day just to provide for their own families.

Tonight, somewhere in America, a 10-year-old little girl will go to bed hungry, hoping and praying that tomorrow will not be as cold as today because she doesn't have the coat to keep her warm; hoping and praying that she doesn't get sick, as she did last year, because it means 24 hours waiting in an emergency room to try to get medical care -- hoping that her father, who lost his job when the factory closed and has not been able to find steady work, will actually get a job that allows him to provide for his family.

She's one of 35 million Americans who live in poverty every single day, unnoticed, unheard. Well, tonight we see her, we hear her, we embrace her. She is part of our campaign. And we will lift her up.

THAT is how he should talk about poverty and its effect on the poor. Hopefully, last night was a rare lapse.

From what I'm reading, I venture to say that there is a range of "poor." Just because you have a few extra bucks and get a taco at a restaurant doesn't mean your NOT poor.

I wonder how many people defining "poor" on this thread have actually been poor. I've been unemployed and had to watch my shekels, and I've been working poor, but my best experience with "poor" is with a dear friend. And, yes, she sometimes goes to a restaurant for something cheap because she's out on the road (yes, driving---I suppose poor people aren't supposed to have cars either) and needs food. She's out on the road going to a community counselor (read "for poor people"), going to the food bank, dealing with a landlord who takes advantage of people who can't afford a lawyer, and so drags his feet on fixing the not-to-code electical fixtures that are a fire hazard, and numerous other crap that she tries to take care of in one trip because of the gas expense. As someone said, "poor doesn't mean homeless" and it doesn't mean you have no extra change whatsoever.

See my post above for the full quote . . . Tonight, somewhere in America, a 10-year-old little girl will go to bed hungry, hoping and praying that tomorrow will not be as cold as today because she doesn't have the coat to keep her warm; hoping and praying that she doesn't get sick, as she did last year, because it means 24 hours waiting in an emergency room to try to get medical care -- hoping that her father, who lost his job when the factory closed and has not been able to find steady work, will actually get a job that allows him to provide for his family.

She's one of 35 million Americans who live in poverty every single day, unnoticed, unheard.

John Edwards has been talking about those living in poverty, not those who have a hard time making ends meet - the latter a category that a significant portion of the population fits.


Poverty is not a relative term - yes, some people are poorer than others. I make a good living, but I'm poorer than a millionaire. That doesn't mean I'm poor any more than the fact that I have more money than a homeless person means that I'm rich. But poverty is a clear, defined condition. Today, poverty is defined as $20,000 per year for a family of four. The average food stamp allowance is about $21 per week or $1 per meal. Try going out to dinner on that.

Having enough money to take your family out to eat on a Sunday afternoon, but just not having enough money to pay the prices in a particular restaurant is NOT poverty!

No insurance, had to wait many hours in an emergency room and then didn't even get the care she needed, can't feed herself properly (food banks give out mostly bready items and she has food allergies), doesn't put on her swamp cooler or the heat when needed, dreads getting ill because she can't afford the medicine AND can buy the cheapest thing on the menu in a low price restaurant every so often. I think it's important that we don't think "poverty" is ONLY the extreme picture some of the posters on this thread think of.

BTW, the federally defined income levels for poverty are unrealistic for many parts of the country. And, unfortunately, programs for the poor have to or choose to use this definition of poverty to base their services on. Even 200% of the poverty level, which a few services use, is unrealistic in a city like Santa Cruz or San Francisco. I personally don't know how a family of 4 can live on $40,000 a year in those cities. The levels are way out of step with reality.

His response was unfortunate - he apparently wanted (I would say desperately) to have been poor.

I don't really understand why people think a candidate has to have been poor to be a supporter of poor people. Look at a person's polices when making a judgment, not whether he/she has actually experienced it him/herself

Beyond unnecessary, that is.

There's poor and then there's POOR. POOR is not having shoes to go into the restaurant. Edwards should make it clear he wasn't living in a dirt-floored shack.

Yet another turn-off.

The Scene:
Four well-dressed men are sitting together at a vacation resort.
'Farewell to Thee' is played in the background on Hawaiian guitar.

FIRST YORKSHIREMAN: I was happier then and I had nothin'. We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof.
SECOND YORKSHIREMAN:
House! You were lucky to live in a house! We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, 'alf the floor was missing, and we were all 'uddled together in one corner for fear of falling.
THIRD YORKSHIREMAN:
Eh, you were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in t' corridor!
FIRST YORKSHIREMAN:
Oh, we used to dream of livin' in a corridor! Would ha' been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish tip. We got woke up every morning by having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us! House? Huh
.......................................

One doesn't have to justify a desire to fight poverty by personal experience! It's in bad taste and insulting to many.

Strange that a man who lived in poverty wants to force someone like Kucinich out of the debates because he hasn't raised enough money to be considered 'top tier'.