Howard Dean on Maddow also struck down impeachment

What will it take to get through to these Democrats? Pickets in front of their houses? Withdrawal of campaign funds? Marches on Washington and other major cities around the nation? I am stumped.

If or when it becomes the best way to reach the goal, I am confident that it will be employed.

That's just my opinion.

"...when it becomes the best way to reach the goal, I am confident that it will be employed."

My thoughts as well.

A stroll thru our political history will help those who are impatient.

and that takes time.
Bravo to the Judiciary Committee on their
raking of Gonzo today.
This is how the sweater unravels... one stitch
at a time.

If you have roaches, you need to get all of them.,..
just stepping on one will not do the job.

:freak:
:nuke:

...to paraphrase Al Gore, political will is a renewable resource.

Never Give Up, Andrea.

I hope he's still feeling the populist vibe. MKJ

Check it out..

http://www.awesclarkdemocrat.com/2007/07/enough.htm

He explicitly said we have to go on with our legisltive agenda. What good is that with an obstructive Senate Republicans? Even if bills do get to Bush's desk, he will veto them or attach signing statements that negate them. Then there are the executive orders.

Of course there is a process to get to impeachment. But to dismiss it the way the Democratic leaders are is ostrich like. Dean said we can prosecute Bush and Cheney after they leave office. We need to start this now. If it continues past their term, fine.

of head of the DNC. Will the REAL Howard Dean please come forward, we miss you and need your candor.

I never understood why he took that job.

who stands with Joementum.

:shrug:

:shrug:

He could very well reconsider.

He doesn't strike me as someone who is willing to use their credibility as as one would a commodity.

Besides, this is a single post at DU, no link, etc.

I'd like to see, or especially hear, the entire exchange. MKJ

It says the current show will be available at 10 pm to stream or download.

http://www.airamerica.com/maddow/

:-) MKJ

Rachel said she and Dean were arguing beforehand and she fears he might never come back!

Democratic leader in the country thinks it's not a worthwhile pursuit, perhaps they're not the ones who are wrong.

It took a long time before they realized what a big mistake they had made.

Thousands of humans were dead and injured by that time of course.

So I'm not sure if the argument that most Dem leaders oppose impeachment so maybe impeachment's not the right course makes a lot of sense.

I've noticed that the people are usually way far out ahead of the leaders on most issues.

at least the majority of them, do not support impeachment.

I don't like that fact. You don't like that fact. But it's a fact.

24% of Dems are opposed
28 percent of independants are opposed.

It's not until you poll Republicans that more than 50% are opposed.

In fact, I would oppose impeaching bush first. Because I don't want cheney to ascend to the office.

Do you have any idea of the time it takes to go through impeachment proceedings? We have an election coming up next year. We're in the middle of an insane war that has killed, at a minimum, tens of thousands of people and maimed tens of thousands more. Just under half of Americans have no health insurance. People who have to travel at some length to get to work are strapped because of gas prices. The environment is in peril. We have a serious problem in the Middle East and elsewhere.

Dean is right: we can and ought to deal with these rogues later, and we have to, if we want to show the world that the American people don't stand for it.

But as for now, there isn't time. It's an ugly truth, but there you have it.

They don't care how, they want it NOW.

Hard reality is something different.

Impeachment is easier. SImple majority in the house and 2/3 of the Senate.

There is no time frame in the constitution for impeachment. It could be done in a week. But until the Dems put it on the table, of course it can't.

And, as I said, it's a matter of time. We can, however, deal with this eventually. And we will.

We have Joementum.

putting it out their and debating it. The Webb amendment for instance. The all night debate for another.

But when it comes to impeachment apparently their is a whole other set of rules. Self imposed rules.

But you will never ever convince anyone here that anyone who doesn't support it right now is any good at all.

It was a very good interview until after he was off when Rachel was talking under her breath. As much as I adore her, I thought she was a little rude when it was over. But that is her right.

He has been saying the same things about it forever, so I don't know why it is a surprise.

I recorded the interview, was going to partially transcribe, but it would do no good to post it.

It would be wasting my time and others. People who must have impeachment right now won't listen to both sides anyway.

And I am for impeachment. He kept saying it might happen after they are out of office.

But the fever over it is out of control.

Has anyone thought maybe this is not a normal situation, and the Dems could be being blackmailed under that "other" spy program Gonzo "couldn't" talk about. Or having threats held over their heads? Not normal times at all.

Oh, wait I forgot few were even watching it...too busy calling the rest of us bad Democrats for not hating John Conyers.

:wow:

I guess I'm just tired of "left-wing" radio trying to emulate "right-wing" radio; I've just had it with the lack of logic and civility attached to these things.

Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert are brilliant satirists, but that's not talk radio. That's good writing, good video, and great satire. (The intro to the Colbert Report, every time I watch it, reduces me to tears of laughter. The eagle kills me every time. My good friend and mentor, a brilliant and nationally recognized poet, told me tonight that she cracks up at the various things Colbert does with his body, especially dancing. I told her that I have not seen him dance, but I had noticed the weird things he does with his body. I mean c'mon, the guy looks like a puppet sometimes!) They can even satirize talk radio. It's good stuff!

Out most important problem is that every day Bush and Cheney find a news way to subvert the Constitution and the separation of powers. Practicallly every day. Our liberties are being eroded. The constitutional separation of powers are being sneered at by Bush and Cheney.

As important as Iraq and the other problems are, if we do not challenge the self-coronation of King George, by using the impeachment powers our framers so wisely wrote into the Constitution, that Constitution is worthless.

Bush and Cheney are already ripping the country apart. Impeachment will help us put it back together. This has to be done legally, with substantive evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors, but that exists in spades. Make compiling the ample evidence a priority for Congressional staff to put together for their bosses . The point is you and Dean and too many other Democratic leaders don't want to try. Wait till they're out of office. That is wrong and frankly foolish. It won't be easy. It might not work in the end. But it must be done for Amerixxca to survive as we know it.

Nobody is challenging you on any of this. Americans have to address it, and they will. It's not that Dean doesn't want to try, and it's not a matter of waiting until they are out of office.

If there is anyone aware of the potential and resulting damage of this administration, it's Howard Dean. He saw it coming, he predicted it (as did many of us), and he railed against it. But people saw this moderate as some kind of extremist because the media portrayed him as one. He is a man of principle. You can trust him.

You are also confusing the role of the Dem chair with that of Congress. Dean is not a member of Congress.

It has never happened before. Don't you ask yourself why?

(google)

Actually no. He and Clinton were both impeached and acquitted. Neither lost their job.

2 were bogus political stunts.

2 were legit.

This one would take the cake for legit.

That's no doubt the "party position" at least to the press, and the party's business is Dean's business.

I don't agree with that stance. I used to agree but realized that impeachment is the only sane, moral thing to do.

If we don't now have votes in the Senate, do we keep trying, at the expense of other matters? If we can do this at a later date, as Dean asserts we can, what other option do we have?

:shrug:

From that many answers will unfold, grasshopper.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Many of them are conflicted since they gave the "green light" of support to the Chimpster. Many of those people were supported by lobbyists in D.C.

Ho-ho.

Things are changing. But that doesn't mean things are able to change all at once. I want what you want, and what many other people want, but it might not be that easy.

well, that would certainly explain it.

Is that what you mean? The Dems are covering up crimes of bushco that they are complicit in?

but that is because some of them were too focused on getting re-elected during a time of national vulnerability (post 9/11).

Unfortunately by doing that, they are not doing their job in their current term. I think when the majority of the party is demanding impeachment, it is incumbent upon our elected officials to do what we collectively want. Catapulting full-on into investigations will provide plenty of material to impeach as well as to persuade those on the fence or opposed. It is and will be the only sane thing to do.

Here's generic poll question

Would you support candidate A who stood up and defended the constitution from enimies foriengn and domestic

or candidate B, who didn't defend the constitution because they had other priorities?

Candidate A.

about these generic "other matters" but no one points to one thing they think the Dems can pass.

;-)

I mean, with slim majorites and a bush veto?

he has about as much power as those complaining about it. what exactly do you expect him to do ?

I want him to be diplomatic, as is necessary, at this point, but to say that Bush and Cheney's actions need serious investigation as to whether they violate the high crimes and misdemeanors provisions in the Constitution, and if they do, impeachment is the Constitutional remedy. Not that it's off the table no matter what.

And in reality, Dean has much more power than you or I. He is the head of the nationwide Democratic Party. He coordinates with Democratic leaders in Congress, Democratic governors and fundraising committees. If he can't herd the cats when we are on the edge of turning from a democracy to a dictatorship, with so many exmples of Bush administration malfeasance, we are in trouble.

Bush and Cheney ignore every Constitutional weapon the Democrats have. It's time to bring out the A bomb of impeachment. AGAIN, by gathering strong evidence. The De mocrats in the past day or two have stopped talk of using that option.

He was a candidate for that job once, but his current job doesn't involve the making of policy or politics.

n/t

but it appears there has been a talking points lock down in the Dem party.

Everyone is just saying the exact same script. Haven't you noticed?

Because these are some of the main principles upon which he was elected to Dem Chair.

candidates.

Or do you mean sticking to the script?

edited to add- Yes, a party chair is expected to stick to the script. But it's scary really. How monotonous the script has become, across most of the entire party.

And we're "on the same page."

:hi:

Harold Ford is the pick of the DLC, of which he is leader because the DNC was taken. Harold really is more like Lieberman.

Simon Rosenberg was the pick of many to get the job in the first place. He is the leader of the New Democrat Network. He thought it was a very good idea to go to Iraq.

So we go with what we have or get rid of him and go with someone else.

I am noticing something at DU lately.

No one is ever satisfied with anything the party does. It is like an organized thingy, you know.

Dem. It's part of his job description.

I just wonder who wrote he script? ANd I do wish Dean had been a little more nuanced. You know, something like "It doesn't matter what I think personally, because the party has decided..."

1. There are more important generic things to do (that no one actually describes or enumerates)

2. bush only has 18 months more (unless an emergency arises and he declares martial law. So lets not enforce the law, since 18 month is magic when deciding to enforce or not)

3. We don't have the votes, (and won't as long as it's of the table)

4. Party first, constitution second.(Ok I know he isn't going to say that, but that's what any thinking person is going to conclude. How could they not.)

Dean was my choice to head the DNC, he has no more say about impeachment that I do. I just wish he'd throw us little folk (you know, the ones who don't get to break the law since were not king) a bone. I don't hate him or anything because he didn't. I just wish he did.

If Bush were impeached, who would replace him?

Because whoever replaced Bush would just turn around like Ford did after Nixon resigned and would simply pardon Bush - and then Bush would be allowed to simply walk away unscathed from all of the crimes he has committed.

Yet, there is no statute of limitations for treason in this country.

And once the Democrats are back in the White House, and they have restored law and order to this country, then they can pursue prosecuting George Walker Bush and Richard B. Cheney for committing acts of treason.

Using the legal system to punish them - not the political system that would allow them to get away with the high crimes and misdemeanors they committed when they were in office.

Corporations hire lobbyists for a reason. It takes face-to-face interaction to break through resistance. A protest can demonstrate numbers, but protests aren't actually a very effective means to persuade. Social influence takes social interaction.

Simply demanding action via protests, emails, FAXes, or calls isn't enough. Our demands for impeachment are currently just bouncing off their wall of rationalizations and denial. As long as the irrational beliefs that keep them in denial are intact, they will continue to thoughtlessly dismiss our demands.

We need to do more than present the case for impeachment. We can only directly contradict their irrational beliefs if we elicit those beliefs. We must start with questions.

Basic questions like:

• "Do you believe Bush and Cheney are a threat to the Constitution?" and "Do you consider their claims to be exempt from U.S. Code and the dictates of the Constitution to be a subversion of the Constitution?" (Look for quotes that make it clear that they DO believe Bush and Cheney are a threat and confront them with those quotes.)
  
  If you believe they are a threat, why haven't you demanded impeachment to defend the Constitution as you are sworn to do?
  
  If you don't believe they are a threat, I'd like to go over a couple charges that I'm sure you are well-aware of to give you an opportunity to explain why you don't consider the acts to be a threat.
  
  There's a long list of items you can confront them with, one-by-one. To name just a few
  • Bushncheney declared themselves exempt from Title 18, Section 2441 (war crimes) when they declared Gitmo to be a Geneva-free zone. When SCOTUS ruled that Geneva applied to Gitmo they confirmed that Bush and Cheney had been violating Title 18, Sec 2441 (war crimes) for years.
  • They declared themselves exempt from FISA when they admitted to conducting their criminal surveillance program. Their attempts to get cover from Ashcroft is an admission of guilt.
  • They declared themselves immune from Congressional oversight by preemptively refusing to prosecute their underlings for Contempt of Congress. . .)


• Ask what they threshold of proof they are employing. If it's higher than "suspicion" ask why they would employ such a high threshold. Why they would set a threshold that preserves the suspects privilege of continuing in office at the expense of protecting the sanctity of our Constitution?


• If they claim impeachment "will unite the Republicans against us" ask them for evidence.
  
  When they fail to provide a valid basis (and they can't because there is none), you can point out that, although the fear has no basis, even if it did, the "energize the fascists" effect would be FAR outweighed by the "energize anti-fascists" effect.
  
  Current polls tell us that a majority of the sought after swing voters want Bush and Cheney impeached. Dems can "close the deal" by standing and fighting to make the will of those voters are reality. People who are sick and tired of "politics as usual" are staying home. Demonstrating resolve and commitment principle by impeaching and fighting for removal, win or lose, is certainly NOT politics as usual. The numbers can't be nailed down, but impeachment will bring some of those alienated anti-fascists back to the polls -- perhaps an incredible number of them.
  
  If they fail to impeach, their fear of "energizing" the fascist faction won't be tested, but the price will be the demoralization of the anti-fascists. Democratic candidates may not lose the activist vote, but the people the activists can turn out won't be turned out if the activists aren't out there.
  
  You don't have to get into a discussion of the potential effects on the electorate. You can just point that they all seem to believe that Hillary will "unite the Republicans against us" too, but they're making no effort to avoid that "threat" by calling for Hillary to take her candidacy "off the table."


• If a staffer claims, as one we spoke to did, that the Congressman will be weighing "both sides," ask what the "other side" is. Ask how many calls they've gotten advocating this hypothetical "other side."

About a dozen or so excuses and http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Senator/14">false memes pervade the beltway. None are legitimate. All need to be challenged as often and as forcefully as possible. A few people in each district willing to get in their faces can weaken the wall of denial and make it possible for the demands made via protests, petitions, emails, calls, and faxes to finally "get through."

Anyone can FAX a meeting request. Just call and ask for the name of the scheduler for the office you'd like the meeting to take place in. It may take a bit of persistent follow-up to set up a meeting with the Representative or a senior staffer, but when you do, bring a friend or two and go after them. Keep it small. More than four people is likely to undermine effective dialog.

:(