Bloomberg Supports Teacher Merit Pay

Bloomberg Supports Teacher Merit Pay
By SARA KUGLER, Associated Press Writer

Wednesday, July 25, 2007
(07-25) 09:57 PDT New York (AP) --

Mayor Michael Bloomberg, a potential independent presidential candidate, is pushing for performance-based merit pay for teachers in the nation's public schools.

Bloomberg, in prepared remarks for a speech to a National Urban League conference in St. Louis, said, "We should be offering teachers and principals incentives not only to take the toughest assignments, and to fill special needs, but also to get the best possible results from their students."

Bloomberg's trip has added to speculation that he may run for president, even though he denies any interest in doing so. Four Democratic and two Republican presidential candidates are scheduled to address the conference Friday.

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In his remarks, Bloomberg praised Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama for supporting for the concept of merit pay. Obama recently told the National Education Association, country's largest teachers union, that the idea should be considered.

"I was happy to hear that Senator Obama recently became the first Democratic presidential candidate to offer at least modest support for the idea of bonus pay for teachers," Bloomberg said.

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http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/07/25/politics/p092647D67.DTL&type=politics

many fans on DU, but I agree with Obama's position.

I agree on both counts.

Romney and Jeb Bush also support it, and so does * in the federal workforce. The idea is so unpopular among Democrats (aside from the DLC) that only one of the eight presidential candidates support this idea that has proven to consistently fail for 300 years (I know, I know, *HE* will make it magically work ;) ).

Just because it is a GOP idea doesn't mean it is all bad automatically. People really need to get this out of their heads and stop using it as a point in arguments.

It's a pretty good IDEA... the execution of it is where it really matters.

In fact, in convinces me otherwise... you just dismissed the idea and didn't work to tweak it at all, which is what I am talking about.

"Which is more likely to benefit students? Groups of teachers collaborating together to make sure that students have the best opportunities available to succeed, or teachers working against each other; teachers who will gain when other teachers' students don't? Teachers who are joined in the effort to help all succeed, or teachers who are motivated by incentives for "me?""

I will go with that. So how about Merit pay on a school wide basis. We shouldn't pit teachers within a school against teachers within a school, so get the teachers to work together towards a common goal, a bonus to split evenly among the staff. There are tons of ideas we can derive from the basic concept of "merit pay", which is, in and of itself, a good idea.

Unfortunately the ideas I see that you presented aren't realistic. They require a huge assumption about the people taking the job. "Be realistic about the job so that those considering teaching as a profession don't think they are getting a short work day with lots of vacation. So that they understand what they are really getting into. "

Who sells it that way? Every single teacher I know would laugh at that statement. People I know who do even 1 moment of research into being a teacher would laugh at that statement. Teaching is well known as a very difficult, underpaid job.

"1. Pay an appropriate professional salary that does not require investment of said salary in work to keep a license, in trainings, in supplies, etc.."

More pay alone is not the answer. Unfortunately, too many people are, by default, lazy and this applies to every industry and every walk of life. Not all people, probably not even most, but enough that it hurts any system where job security and pay are taken for granted. Without incentive too many people stagnate.

The current system is broken, that's reality. The question is how to fix it, hoping that people suddenly change the way they approcah the job... it ain't gonna happen.

Although all this is off the main point, which is too many people on this site dismiss every idea that comes from the GOP, DLC or anything similar based solely on the fact of where it came from and then make up reasons to be agaisnt it.

We need to listen to them, as much as they need to listen to us. Both sides have good ideas, both sides have bad ideas.

I am NOT an Obama supporter. However, I am glad to see him at least willing to discuss an idea that comes from somewhere else.

The "tweakers" will NEVER get a vote from me. NEVER.

Every single teacher I know would laugh at that statement. People I know who do even 1 moment of research into being a teacher would laugh at that statement. Teaching is well known as a very difficult, underpaid job.

I'm a teacher, and I'm not laughing. As a matter of fact, I've been in public education since 1983, worked in more than one district, one of which was the 6th biggest in the state of California at the time, worked at the district level with teachers district wide, and even worked with staffs across state lines. I don't know any teachers that would laugh at the idea. We face the reality of student teachers who come into the job thinking that the hours are short, and hearing the general population tell us how easy our jobs are all the time.

I am not, by default, or anything else, "lazy," and neither are the majority of my colleagues.

Exactly how much time have YOU spent teaching in public school classrooms?

The only grain of truth I see in anything you've said is that "the system is broken."

I have addressed that in many places, and gave one link in the thread you read. I'll repeat it here:

<snip>
As someone who HAS worked in public ed for 25 years, I know that there are many, many areas that need improvement. I would love to dive right in and work on them. As a matter of fact, you can find some of my ideas here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

More competition and merit pay are not on my list, as you will see.

If you really want to tout your favorite candidate's position on public education, how about giving us their position on those suggestions?

First, let me correct your errors.

"I'm a teacher, and I'm not laughing. As a matter of fact, I've been in public education since 1983, worked in more than one district, one of which was the 6th biggest in the state of California at the time, worked at the district level with teachers district wide, and even worked with staffs across state lines. I don't know any teachers that would laugh at the idea. We face the reality of student teachers who come into the job thinking that the hours are short, and hearing the general population tell us how easy our jobs are all the time."

I don't think you understand what, since you agreed with it, while claiming to disagree. I said that no teacher or anyone who did one minute of research into being a teacher would think it is an easy job with short hours and lots of vacation time, but that was your point #2. A few idiots may think it is an easy job, but that ain't the majority of the public and to claim it is, is completely wrong.

"I am not, by default, or anything else, "lazy," and neither are the majority of my colleagues."

Again, you are agreeing with what I said, but trying to claim you aren't... I said definately not all and probably not MOST. However, SOME are. Not the majority, but SOME ARE. And it doesn't take that many to screw up the entire system, unfortunately AND there is little to no outside incentive for others to help and personal incentive only goes so far.

"If you really want to tout your favorite candidate's position on public education, how about giving us their position on those suggestions?"

I don't have one. I am not interested in picking a horse in this race... I would rather develop ideas and then see what candidates endorse those ideas... I am also glad when a candidate looks at ideas beyond the very narrow special interests of his/her own party.

and to that I would respond:

If MOST teachers aren't lazy, but SOME are, MOST shouldn't have to compete with other good teachers for pay. There are better ways to improve professional practice.

There are two very clear points I'd like to make:

1. Teachers are people, and tend to reflect the same levels of competence and incompetence found in the rest of the population. We aren't perfect, by any means. However, teacher-bashing and blaming has become right-wing rhetoric employed for the purpose of privatizing public education. This is not ok, and attacking the huge job of improving public education should not start at the point of teacher-blaming. Teachers, good and bad, are not to blame for systemic dysfunction.

2. I gave a link on that thread to another thread in the ed forum in which I proposed numerous ways to improve public schools. Here's the link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x7314#7315

I would like to hear voters, elected officials, and candidates address those proposals. If those proposals are not addressed, the teacher blame-game is nothing more that right-wing propaganda, and that includes the "merit pay" suggestions.

If you are concerned about teacher-related problems, I'd also refer you to another recent post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1342566

"Teachers, good and bad, are not to blame for systemic dysfunction."

Of course they are, to suggest otherwise is rediculous. They are a PART of the system and are IN PART responsible for failures in the system.

Why should teachers get any special dispensation beyond, doctors, lawyers or any other professionals who share some responsibility for the problems in the system?!

Doctors, good and bad, are partially to blame for the problems in the health care system.

Lawyers, good and bad, are partially to blame for problems in the legal systems.

Teachers, good and bad, are partially to blame for problems in the education systems.

Until those realities are accepted, it will be impossible to have an actual discussion on these topics, b/c there is plenty of 'blame' to spread around and everyone has to accept their own share.

we are not to blame for systemic dysfunction, because we are not the authors of the system or the dysfunction.

Systemic dysfunction comes from the top. It's not the result of poor implementation, it's the result of poor structure, and the result of the pyramid of power that concentrates the decision-making about the system at the top.

Some poor teachers at the bottom of that pyramid aren't the cause of the dysfunction. Poor teaching can result from poor training, poor preparation, and poor skills or attitude on the part of the teacher. It also flows from struggling with mandates that hinder most effectively serving students.

Teachers are part of the system, true. They aren't the part of the system mandating destructive policies. They aren't the part of the system creating layer after layer after layer of bureacratic bullshit that impedes delivery of service to students. They don't CREATE the dysfunction. They just struggle to work within it.

Did you read any of the suggestions for improving education, or about improving the professional practice of teachers? Can you discuss any of those suggestions, or do you just want to keep trying to play the blame game?

"we are not to blame for systemic dysfunction, because we are not the authors of the system or the dysfunction."

That's an excuse not an answer. Doctor's aren't the "authors of the health care system", but they should share some of the blame.

Accepting NONE of it doesn't help your position in the slightest. It projects the "everyone else is to blame" mentality and people reject that as a concept.

I read through the suggestions and didn't think too much of them. It was the usual, "Smaller classes, smaller schools, more money, utopia" that has been proposed and rejected time and time again. In short, it just ain't gonna happen. There needs to be PRACTICAL applications that can win voter approval and you aren't going to win it by accepting none of the blame for the current system. Acknowledge the part the group you represent plays and explain how you are willing to improve it... THEN explain how the other parts need to make improvements as well and how their making improvements will aid you in making your improvements. THAT is how you fix a system.

So, to me, there is no "blame game" there is plenty of blame to go around and we don't need a game to spread it.

Merit pay can be implimented in a way to achive many of the goals you mentioned. Merit pay is a way to get the public willing to vote for more funding (which is what most of your ideas require). There is an old trick in negotiating sports and movie contracts and that is to tie a large amount of the pay to "achievements"... many of these achievements are easy reach goals, meaning the money is all but guaranteed. Merit pay can be structured in that form.

Rejecting it outright wins you nothing, but contempt for your position as the public at large sees a group unwilling to work to fix the problem, but just want everything their way and that simply doesn't work.

Doctor's aren't the "authors of the health care system", but they should share some of the blame.

Every patient that dies, they get docked. Sounds like a plan.

It is built into the private system. Good doctors can demand more money. They get sued for mistakes.

:eyes:

You described a market-based system before, but then said it doesn't really work as advertised.

Good doctors demand more money. Doctors get sued for mistakes. That is a merit based system.

and you just said upthread that the market does not reward the most deserving.

that doesn't reward according to merit.

:silly:

Which is it?

and I agreed. That isn't claiming it doesn't work at all.

Nice try... no cigar.

Sorry.

"right, because the market always rewards the most deserving."

Always = 100% of the time = perfection.

I never said it was ALWAYS and corrected you accordingly.

You can set or even judge a rule based solely on the exceptions to it.

If "sometimes is always okay", you might as well promote the idea as "come teach, and we might pay you what your effort is worth!"

:rofl:

I am simply accepting that there are exceptions to every rule and the fact that something doesn't ALWAYS work isn't a reason to reject it.

<snip>

Rejecting it outright wins you nothing, but contempt for your position as the public at large sees a group unwilling to work to fix the problem, but just want everything their way and that simply doesn't work.

Teachers are not a "group unwilling to work to fix problems." You are just a person unwilling to discuss what teachers propose. This teacher, anyway, lol. I've posted links to many suggestions for both "fixing" the system, and improving teacher practice. You don't seem able to discuss those proposals, but are determined to stick to the right-wing's baby: merit pay.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

that you have repeatedly ignored the links to constructive proposals to "fix" public education and address teaching issues?

Just what is "lying" or "spinning" about the fact that you are using right-wing talking points to promote a right-wing agenda, merit pay?

The money that merit pay MIGHT put into the system would do nothing to actually solve problems. It's a political tool, not a method of constructive change.

Even if it WERE a viable tool, I wouldn't hold my breath for funding, though.

As it happens, I was teaching in CA when the California State-wide "standards and accountability" system, a state-level precursor to NCLB, kicked into gear. Merit pay was supposed to be a part of that. I've been having this professional conversation for 13 years. In the end, merit pay was dropped as "too costly." That was fine; teachers didn't support "merit pay" then, either. Of course, some of us earned it, anyway.

Teachers at my school were "rewarded" with "merit pay" for making our API, the state version of AYP. I rushed out and cashed the check, just to make sure the state would have to pay up, but not before I xeroxed it. The copy of that check is framed and sits on my wall. My "merit" was worth $1.38, lol.

The following year, merit pay was dropped out of the accountability formula due to lack of funding, and never made it back on to the agenda. No problem. As I said, teachers didn't want it, anyway.

Why is it about how someone approaches the job?

You have to look at the way people approach a job, because their satisfaction with the job will, in some part, be based upon their expectations.

For example, if someone becomes an entertainment lawyer, thinking that they are going to be wheeling and dealing, and putting together high profile movie deals, they are in for a rude awakening, when they learn that they are just going to be spending most of time turning deal memos (negotiated by people without a law degree) into long form contracts.

In teaching, the poster seems to claim (I think falsely) that people get into teaching thinking it will be an easy job, with short hours and lots of vacations. If that were true, giving people a realistic picture of the job will change how they approach it and what they are prepared to do for it.

LWolf knows better than most of us that teaching is not an easy job. I suspect that you're misreading her.

2. How would merit pay give people a more realistic picture of the job?

I know teaching isn't a easy job. My point is that, despite her claim otherwise, people who do 1 minute of research don't believe it is either.

:shrug:

Teaching is never going to become an EASY JOB. It is a HARD JOB, that requires LONG HOURS and DEDICATION.

However, Merit Pay, if used properly, could help to motivate. It won't make the job any easier, but it may help the public get behind more pay, since people generally agree with bonuses tied to performance.

Teaching is never going to become an EASY JOB. It is a HARD JOB, that requires LONG HOURS and DEDICATION.

No kidding.

However, Merit Pay, if used properly, could help to motivate.

Sure - motivate experienced teachers to seek jobs in less-challenging schools, and motivate potential teachers to seek employment in other careers. I have a current thread on expanding merit pay to all areas of public service. Such a great idea should be applied to other fields, wouldn't you agree?

Merit pay actually works in most employment areas if implimented properly.

It's all about the implimentation. Anyone can create a rediculous scenario by not considering how an idea is used in a particular field.

Better yet, who oversees it?

What do you expect teachers in red states to be paid, then?

How much?

generally given to discounting public education, would pay less and less. Great idea, if you want to attract the best people.

:shrug:

Standard of living for example is a "national standard" that varies from area to area.

One can set base teacher salaries to a multiple of "standard of living" and thus it would vary from area to area, but still be a minimum. Additional merit based options can be set in localities based on needs and desires.

do you suppose teachers in red states might make in a merit pay system? Particularly those in schools with higher numbers of troubled kids? Or those who teach students with special needs?

"Merit pay" could be promised and dispersed based on specific criteria set by localities.

That is what we as a society will have to vote on.

You want to pay teachers on a locally determined scale (informed in some mystical way by national pay standards) depending on how their students do on a state-standardized test. Is that correct?

Before I forget again - where do special ed teachers fall in this algorithm?

I never said "state standardized test" or suggested it. That is your own fabrication.

Please see my reply on the other thread - it may help you understand why our conversation is at an end.

Phony indignation always is a great conversation ender.

Good luck with that.

come sit with me for a bit.

Not the situation, the indigination.

Let's talk. I'm in Georgia.

I don't doubt the situation, I doubt the phony indignation.

Come sit for a spell.

<snip>

Now your whole world you see around you is just a reflection
And the law of common says you reap just what you sow
So unless you've lived a life of total perfection
You'd better be careful of every stone that you throw.

Walk a mile in my shoes, walk a mile in my shoes
And before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Walk a mile in my shoes.

-Joe South

Amazing what pundits who don't want to walk that mile are willing to promote.

the business model says an office manager is responsible for the output of the office staff.

the business model says an office manager is rewarded or penalized for the output of the office staff.

the business model says an office manager can demote, transfer, or fire office staff who are not meeting their goals.

guess what? a teacher cannot demote, transfer, or fire an underperforming student.

When teachers can demote, transfer, or fire underperforming students who are dragging down the class as a whole,
then and only then should a merit system be considered.

BTW, did you know that students who cannot read, write, or speak english typically flunk english only tests? That is a major reason why so many schools are "failing" according to NCLB standards, and the teacher really has little to do with changing that.

I do recommend merit pay for US senators however. Unfortunately those senators who want merit pay for everybody else are not likely to accept it for themselves.

Gee, I bet the whole country would like to have the health plan US senators have.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

Children are not the test taking machines people are trying to make them become.

Teachers already have many people observing them all the time, every hour, every day.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1386

You are right. This is a horrible policy. It is no coincidence the Democratic wing of the Democratic party sides against the DLC and GOP on this.

As has already been pointed out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3377303

and insisted that his named be removed from their website.

Sometimes politicians say things that we don't like, but that doesn't mean we have to falsely align them with groups we dislike.

I'm talking about terribly wrong ideas, and terribly wrong policy, in the form of merit pay, that he is promoting.

It's true that the dlc also promotes merit pay, whether or not Obama is a member. It's also true that merit pay is a right-wing agenda.

Sorry about that....

Namely, the DLC and Republicans (with Bloomberg essentially being a DLCer who ran as a Republican out of convenience).

of supporting bad ideas that are politically popular.