Hugo Chavez

Hugo Chavez Editorial
Few governments in the world have been victims of devastating campaigns full of hatred. The Venezuelan government, led by President Hugo Chávez, is one of those victims. His enemies have tried everything: Coup d’État, oil strike, flow of capital, plots… After the attack against Fidel Castro, a similar situation has not ever happened in Latin America.

The most miserable lies have been said about Chávez, all of them orchestrated by the new propaganda office called -National Endowment for Democracy, Freedom House, financed by Bush Administration. With unlimited financial resources, this lying machine manipulates important media and organizations for the defense of Human Rights which are at the service of sinister plans.

Likewise, part of the social-democrat left-branched party surrender before these groups of liars.

Why so much hate? Nowadays, the social-democracy in Europe is experiencing a crisis of identity. The historic circumstances seem indicating that Chávez has the responsibility of assuming the international leadership of the left’s recognition.

While in the old continent the European construction has made impossible any alternative to neo-liberalism, in Brazil, Argentina, Bolivia and Ecuador, inspired in the Venezuelan model, some experiences keep alive the emancipation hope of poor people.

In this regard, Chávez’s sense of balance is outstanding.

SNIP

Hugo Chavez is leading a rebellion against the neo-liberal foreign policies that support the oppression of the poor and the raiding of natural resources in third world nations by multi-national corporations, who view greed as good. This is why DLC Dems join Reichwing Repukes in attacking Chavez. DLC Dems serve corporations, just like the Repukes.

Long live Hugo Chavez!!!!

was voted in for 4 terms by the American people.

As I recall, the last Venezuelan election was monitored by international groups, including Jimmy Carter's organization and it passed with flying colors, unlike our 2000 and 2004 elections, when we knew that Republicans were intentionally suppressing votes in minority districts.

Venezuela, unlike Iraq, has free fair and internationally monitored elections. Make your case with facts not bullshit, if you can.

The 34-country Organization of American States, the Carter Center and other international election monitoring groups were only allowed into the country a few days before the vote.

The election process was not monitored, only the Election Day vote counting was.

caging and voter suppression in 2000 and 2004, and the Dem leaders allowed Republicans to get away with it.

that Venezuela caged voters and suppressed the vote.

some appearance of credibility.

You'd be doing everyone a favor to shed the light of truth on this fiend! Just go get it, and we'll be right here, ready to read it.

The recall referendum:

"The day before the polling, former U.S. President and Nobel Peace Prize winner Jimmy Carter of the Carter Center, who had deployed extensive networks of electoral monitors to oversee the referendum, expressed confidence that the vote would proceed in a calm and orderly fashion. Carter commented that, "I might project results that will be much more satisfactory than they were in 2000 in Florida".<6>

On the afternoon of August 16, 2004, Carter and OAS Secretary General César Gaviria gave a joint press conference in which they endorsed the preliminary results announced by the CNE. The monitors' findings "coincided with the partial returns announced today by the National Elections Council" said Carter, while Gaviria added that the OAS electoral observation mission's members had "found no element of fraud in the process". Directing his remarks at opposition figures who made claims of "widespread fraud" in the voting, Carter called on all Venezuelans to "accept the results and work together for the future".<7>"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_recall_referendum%2C_2004

The 2006 election results were accepted as fair and open by the following international organizations:

Carter Center<2>
European Union<3>
Mercosur<4>
Organization of American States<5>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_presidential_election%2C_2006

The OAS had this to say about the 2006 election:

"Venezuelan citizens cast their votes on December 3 and reelected President Hugo Chávez to another six-year term. The Venezuelan leader garnered more than 62% of the votes in an election in which turnout was around 75%. The day after the voting, the OAS Electoral Observation Mission—led by Ambassador Juan Enrique Fischer, former Uruguayan Permanent Representative to the OAS—noted that the elections had unfolded peacefully. Fischer underscored the high level of citizen participation and praised Chávez challenger Manuel Rosales, who conceded defeat, for his “civic behavior and his determination to strengthen democratic institutions” in Venezuela. The observer mission, which deployed 80 monitors around the country, did note some problems—including complaints related to fingerprint-reading machines, which slowed down the voting process in some places—but said these difficulties were not generalized to the point where they could call the results into question."
http://www.oas.org/key_issues/eng/KeyIssue_Detail.asp?kis_sec=6

Now as to your comparison to Saddam's election. Please provide the details of similar international monitoring of Iraq elections in the Saddam era, and their confirmation of a fair and open election process.

If you cannot provide the substantiating information, please admit that you are a liar and please explain why you find it necessary to lie about what is going on in Venezuela.

A study conducted by Ezequiel Zamora (former vicepresident of the CNE), Freddy Malpica (former rector of the Universidad Simón Bolívar), Guillermo Salas (USB professor), Jorge Tamayo (UCV professor), Ramiro Esparragoza (UCV professor), four statistics experts and three computer engineers concluded in January of 2007 that the 2006 Presidential elections presented "important statistical inconsistencies, despite the fact that the opposition candidate recognized the results". They argued that the elections results of many electoral centers showed a very regular statistical distribution of the votes in favor of Rosales in comparison with the dispersion of the votes for Chávez. This suggest that the regularities are the possible result of numerical ceilings embedded in the voting machines. Also there seems to be a regular statistical abstention of 25% in most electoral centers and no signs of dispersion. They have recommended further studies of the data in order to understand the deficiencies of the Venezuelan electoral system and in order to have a "minimun of transparency" in any future electoral process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_recall_referendum%2C_2004

--------------------

"the Venezuelan opposition has statistical evidence to reject the official results given by the CNE. The irregularities detected were observed consistently in numerous voting centers and the magnitude of the irregularities imply that the official results do not reflect the intention of voters with statistical confidence."

http://isi.cbs.nl/ISReview/abst743-05.pdf

-------------------


The Carter Center: With observers like these, who needs observers?

(Salon.com)

Reading the audit report by the Carter Center is painful. Painful because it is sloppy, painful because it leaves a lot of material out or says things without explaining that what was done went either against the rules of the audit, an audit or the agreements made. Finally the technical aspects described are so poor and unconvincing that it makes you wonder who wrote it and if anyone approved it before releasing it. It makes you wonder if the reason that it is only available in Spanish is so that many will have no critical access to it.

Let’s look at some details:



-The report does not say that the boxes with the ballots were not under the observation of the Carter Center for over 65 hours, but goes in painstaking detail about how there were two observers from the OAS and the Center per state after that “grace” period and the like.



-The report fails to mention that the opposition requested, but was denied the opportunity to choose 50 ballot boxes to audit. This is without doubt the biggest mystery in the whole process, why didn’t the CNE allow the opposition to pick some voting centers, forcing a random sample after denying any possibility of the random sample during the petition drive to have the recall? CNE Director said in that case, he did not trust a sample and the issue was too important. Talk about a double standard, or is it a single one?



-The report mentions that 50 extra boxes were picked in case there were problems, but fails to mention that indeed there were problems and some of the boxes were actually missing and were never found!



-Why did the Carter Center fail to follow the agreement with the opposition that the random number generator supplied would be that of the center and instead, the one from the CNE was used? Moreover, all sorts of technical detail is given, but no mention I made of how the seed was chosen. Indeed, it does mention it was the same generator used on Sunday, if it had the same seed; the sequence was exactly the same! Bruni in the comments section has been wondering about this point from day one and she was right to worry!



-The report says that ballot boxes were “in several garrisons” while the CNE assured everyone that they were in the Fuerte Tiuna military facility. The report also talks about two states where the material was still “disperse” three days after the vote!



-The other report by the Carter Center is the final report on the recall vote. It has similar problems as the audit report. It does note that on Aug. 15th, “hot audit” 192 ballot boxes were supposed to be audited, but only 82 were. Moreover, it fails to say that opposition representatives were only present in 27 of them and in those, the Si vote won 63% to 37%, despite the fact that these came from seven states in which the No had won in five. Moreover, these showed no discrepancies.



-The report fails to note that while abstention was 37% in the electronic vote, it was practically zero in the remote areas where the vote was manual, exactly the opposite of what has happened historically and what happened in this election in similar areas where machines were deployed! Any of my Chavista readers can give me a coherent and plausible explanation for this not so small anomaly?



-The report mentions in passing the problem with the total number of Si votes coinciding from center to center. However, the Carter Center continues to consider the coincidences at the level of the “mesas” (tables) and not at the center level. There is a factor of five increase in coincidences when the problem is considered at the center level. No detail was provided as to what exactly the two “foreign statisticians” looked at in their studies to say that it was a mathematical probability for this to happen.



-The report does not even get right the level of abstention, the number they give (73% of the people voting) has nothing to do with any of the numbers reported by the CNE in any of its reports.



Very sloppy reports on the part of an institution that should provide international and professional class work in a process in which attention to detail and critical analysis is crucial to the accomplishment of their goals. As the saying goes: “With friends like these, who needs enemies?” or in its new version: “With observers like these, who needs observers?”

http://blogs.salon.com/0001330/2004/08/27.html#a1723

Don't you know that a statistical analysis of voting results is only allowed when one of the candidates is named Bush? Shame on you. :eyes:

These purported anomalies, inconclusive as they are, are not corroborated by other evidence of election tampering.

Somebody engineering election fraud would have a multifaceted approach.

No snark, just info, info, info. You at your best.

Printed it out to read later. Thanks.

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unlike Saddam. False comparison.

for him to have the option of "serving" unlimited terms. There was even such talk early on in Dubya's first term as selected president.

ronny ray-gun never died...

He was just channeled by bush I/Clinton/bush II to do their corporate bidding....

to delude progressives in this country into thinking that the democratic socialist Bolivarian Movement in Latin America is in fact the return of Joe Stalin in the form of Hugo Chavez has claimed another victim.

Why are you so scared of a popular democratic socialist progressive movement?

Why do you have to lie about Chavez?

is because the Republican party wants to characterize the economic downturn resulting from their policies as a global problem that doesn't have to do with their vision of capitalism. It appears that Venezuela's economy will do pretty well over the next few years and the RW doesn't want anyone to believe that maybe western european style socialism is the reason.

The Venezuelan Economy Grows by 8.9 Percent in Second Quarter of 2007

Caracas, (venezuelanalysis.com) August 17, 2007 — The Venezuelan economy showed a growth rate of 8.9 percent in the second quarter of 2007, according to statistics released by the Central Bank of Venezuela this week. The continued growth of the Venezuelan economy for nearly 4 consecutive years is a result of many factors, including government policies to invest in social programs and raise household purchasing power, said Finance Minister Rodrigo Cabezas.

Speaking on the state TV channel earlier this week, Cabezas stated that the Venezuelan economy has entered into a phase of sustained economic growth. The nation's GDP has shown three years of consecutive growth since the end of 2003 and has a growth rate of nearly 9 percent so far this year. In 2006 the economy grew by 10.3 percent, and Cabezas assured growth of at least 8 percent for 2007.

"The estimates that we have in the national government indicate that the Venezuelan economy will grow by no less than 8 percent of GDP," he said.

The minister pointed to many factors that have led to this growth, including the high prices on the world oil market in recent years. Higher state spending in social programs and infrastructure has also contributed to the growth as have the increases in minimum wage.

"Venezuela has the highest minimum wage in Latin America," explained Cabezas, who also emphasized the "important policies of social inclusion that increase household purchasing power."
SNIP

Can't let Americans see that Socialism in the public sector can be a boon to the national economy.

It's the spike in the price of oil that has fueled that growth.

If Chavez was a western European style socialist, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We are allies with Western Europe.

Most South Americans and Central Americans (hells bells -- it's universal) don't want the U.S. sticking our noses in their business. Ever.

I feel the same way about Chavez. He can be the Venezuelan version of Khadafi is he so choses, and if the Venezuelans put up with it, then so be it. But, when Hugo starts injecting his smarmy ass into U.S. politics, it's time for him to STFU.

at an international forum? That injection? So when we try to overthrow his government he should shut the fuck up about that?

Why?

If you're looking for someone to knock the socialist chip of your shoulder, look elsewhere.

Worship Chavez until hell freezes over; just remind him to stay home.

just as does every other country's leader.

Try to find somewhere on this thread (or any other) where I stated that Chavez should not be allowed to speak at the UN. (Or should not be allowed to speak anywhere else.)

Why would it be appropriate to disinvite him from leaving his country to go ANYWHERE?

Most of us have little time to play stupid games. There aren't too many other ways one could interpret that sage admonishment.

Maybe it would have been better if you had written something which made actual sense so people didn't have to try to struggle to imagine what possible meaning you attached to it. Of course, you know it's not all that important, don't you? Attempting to attack DU'ers who know something about Venezuelan history is not useful, doesn't provide worthwhile information, and is a personal attack, as well as a pathetic lie.

Your sentence was, "Worship Chavez until hell freezes over; just remind him to stay home." Worship? Stupid. Stay home? Idiotic.

"... just remind him to stay home." The context of my comments was clear: Chavez is not welcome to interfere in US domestic business. I said that explicitly. So, when I said "just remind him to stay home" I was talking about keeping his policies and interference at home.

tsk tsk. And you called me stupid.

Why is it that anytime anyone disagrees with you people it's always the same shit: "Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!"

The most disturbing thing about Chavez is his supporters.

"It's okay. The people WANT to vote their democracy away. They LIKE it."

so if he wants to go to other countries and speak about their government, he should be prepared to receive the same treatment.

universal health care, clean - publicly financed elections - universal free education...

all that nasty SOCIALIST shit Chavez and the People of Venezuela are doing, eh?


You're so content in your corporate capitalist paradise...

the jackals -- up to and including sticking my nose into American politics. Wouldn't you? :shrug:

If "every tool" includes shutting down all opposition media and ruling by decree, you'd still support it? So much for democracy first. It's clearer than ever that there are liberal Democrats, and then there are straight-up leftist kooks. The latter would be absolutely fine with dictatorship if it meant "no more poverty" or something along those lines. How sad...and pathetic. Like a poison in our party.

"Why are you so scared of a popular democratic socialist progressive movement?

Why do you have to lie about Chavez?"

Where did BuzzClik lie? Chavez and his supporters in the legislature are looking to amend (if not rewrite) the Constitution again so that he can remain in power indefinitely with elections. He has also sought to centralize his own power while weakening the power of the states.

The cult of personality surrounding him where some one cannot even point out something wrong is bizarre.

is clearly intended to evoke a permanent presidency, not the possibility of unlimited re-election, which is what abolishing term limits does. It's use is a deliberate deception by our scared of socialism DUers. You can think otherwise, I'll continue to call this a lie every time I see it.

"I'll continue to call this a lie every time I see it."

Except it isn't a lie. You just don't like the characterization.

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The Constitution, which increased power at the federal level, replaced the Articles of Confederation because the latter proved to be unworkable in times of national crisis.

will continue to try to undermine the public's perception of what is happening there.

It just might be possible that St. Hugo has a few warts on his ass.

And an ego that can never be satiated.

Why do you find it necessary to lie?

Calling someone a liar after misquoting them takes brass balls.

But let's run with it: we'll assume that I said that Chavez is trying to become President for Life. Can you deny it? Is there anything in Chavez's behavior to indicate that he has no plans to keep running until he's dead?

Or, is it your thought that Chavez is simply responding to a groundswell, grassroots rally to change the Venezuelan constitution limiting presidential terms?

So what exactly did you mean by "How's that "President for Life" thing coming along?".
Please explain.

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Every time I discuss anything with a socialist, they shit their pants. It's a disgusting habit that should change.

countdown: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ... IGNORE.

the last refuge of the coward...

Every time Socialism is mentioned in any positive light you capitalists shit your pants. It's a disgusting habit that should change -- but won't. Capitalists are cowards...

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trying to tar me with that SHIT...

What the FUCK are you trying to say???

I shit my pants? No, I said that equating ending term limits with making oneself president for life is a lie. That is simply a fact.

Why is that considered blasphemy?

to become dictator rather than YOU proving he does. :eyes:

to become a dictator, fulfill the Bush prediction and make you happy. :)

and consults the daily whoroscope. Consulting Ms. Cleo would be the next "logical" step.

Rather like proving there is no God.

The burden is on the Christian to prove existence, not on the atheist to prove non-existence.

By the same token, the burden is on those who think that Chavez has plans to be dictator to prove it, no on y'all to prove he has NO plans.

"...Is there anything in Chavez's behavior to indicate that he has no plans to keep running until he's dead?"

Chavez might very well be planning to run for as long as he can.

But running for President doesn't make you President. WINNING THE ELCTION makes you President (or cheating)

The accounts that he cheated so far seems to be more more about implication then fact and even with that Venezualia still seems ot have more open electiosn then we do here.

And some of his other reforms would seem to encourage voter turn out, which is not something you want if you are trying to fix an election.

Were you a sucker for that too?

And whatever form of government they choose or have thrust upon them but ... is or is not Fidel Castro his mentor?

There is blind ... and then there's refusing to see.

That means exactly what?

What exactly are we refusing to see?

The US did not become a Communist nation by opening relations with China or holding talks with the former Soviet Union. Ironically, its the greed of multi-national corporations and the Republican and Democratic politicians they purchase that has made the US indebted to China.

that's what it lead to.

who has so consistently and thoroughly kicked the shit out of the fascists over the years. From Castro's ouster of Bush family crony Batista and the drug, dealing sleaze who fed his corrupt government, to the CIA and beyond, Castro has proven a wily adversary to predatory capitalism.

It only makes sense that Hugo would seek Castro's counsel.

has gotten so small?

Fidel Castro is no saint. But he came HERE for support and didn't cut a deal because he refused to be manipulated by your government, which steered him in the direction of the Soviets.

He managed to survive embargoes which only hurt the people AND many assassination attempts. And somehow his alliance tars Chavez?! I'd call him a survivor of the American corporati and I tip my hat to him.

There is blind and then, there's refusing to see.

Fidel Castro is among the many "mentors" of Hugo Chavez...along with Thomas Jefferson, Noam Chomsky, Simon Bolivar, etc. etc.

So what???

Dubya is the real dictator, not Hugo.

Chavez is only working to remove term limits, not install himself as permanent president. France, Germany, and England do not have term limits. By your logic, they must be dictatorships.

When did France, England & Germany seek to rewrite their Constitutions so the current leader could remain in power beyond his Constitutional mandate?

When did France, England & Germany threaten their press?

When did France, England & Germany craft a law that makes disrespect to the government and its officials a crime?

When did France, England & Germany have their current leader start arming his supporters to form his own militia?

I'd say by your logic. But you do not appear to have any.

their governments, an overthrow supported by a foreign power?

Chavez has not silence opposition, an opposition that sought to use foreign aide and a military coup to overturn a legal election. He refused to renew the broadcast license of one network, the primary network that encouraged the coup. That network now broadcasts via cable.

Why do you hate the poor people of Venezuela, who overwhelmingly support Chavez? It must burn you that Chavez has 70% popularity rating.

"Why do you hate the poor people of Venezuela, who overwhelmingly support Chavez? It must burn you that Chavez has 70% popularity rating."

I didn't really need proof that Chavistas and Bushies are simply different sides of the same coin, but thank you any way for providing it.

:eyes:

"Making America and the world safe for trans-national corporations"®

That would be the 70% popularity side vs the 30% popularity side. Indeed.

Chavistas and Bushies share the same cult of personality affliction.

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"Chavez has NOT threatened the press. The Venezuelan government denied a BROADCAST license renewal for the coup plotter network."

BS. 4 networks used to oppose him editorially. After he initial series of threats 2 dropped virtually all criticism of Chavez then on the day RCTV lost their license he threatened the last station that aired critical reports of him.

This is the same douchebag who refers to people peacefully protesting his decision (re: RCTV not the coup obviously) is the most unkind of terms from his bully pulpit.

The man has no sense of irony.

The two of them should go bowling sometime.

Why the more moderate stance?

:crazy:

:hi:

If after two years he has not proclaimed himself president for life will you admit you were wrong?

4 years?

6 years?

12 years?

If he serves as long as FDR, re-elected each time in open and fair elections, and then dies in office, will he have been a dictator who made himself 'president for life'?

"If he serves as long as FDR, re-elected each time in open and fair elections, and then dies in office, will he have been a dictator who made himself 'president for life'?"

Except there was no Constitutional amendment providing for term limits prior to FDR. It was more based on the tradition set by Washington.

Chavez is seeking to remove limits placed there when he was in power.

If Chavez thinks term limits are such a burden and it has little to do with his own power, he can have his pets in the legislature remove the limits and make them applicable after he leaves office in 2012.

But obviously its more about Chavez the man staying on power rather than any problem with the law.

is not tantamount to proclaiming himself president for life, and that in fact those who deliberately conflate the two are engaged in deceptive arguments.

By the way, regarding "Chavez is seeking to remove limits placed there when he was in power", was that act that altered the constitution and affected the current sitting president acceptable?

And, are you off posting about the horrors of Uribe in Colombia, the wannabe dictator there who recently moved to end term limits in that country? If not why not?

"not tantamount to proclaiming himself president for life, and that in fact those who deliberately conflate the two are engaged in deceptive arguments."

Its not a deceptive argument when you are discussing a virtual one party state.

If in 2005, the GOP majority Congress and Bush had sought to amend the Constitution in order to remove term limits all hell would have broken loose here and rightfully so.

"By the way, regarding "Chavez is seeking to remove limits placed there when he was in power", was that act that altered the constitution and affected the current sitting president acceptable?"

Sure. Acts by sitting leaders limiting their own power is commendable.

"And, are you off posting about the horrors of Uribe in Colombia, the wannabe dictator there who recently moved to end term limits in that country? If not why not?"

Is there a post on DU on it? I would be happy to comment.

But your tactic is quite cowardly. As if I am not allowed to comment on Chavez's problems because I have yet to comment on the problems of every other leader in the world.

Again more examples of the cult of personality surrounding Chavez.

lol

Is there a relationship between hating Chavez and supporting the DLC and their candidate Hillary?

It seems to me that the most ardent "catapulters" of Right Wing propaganda are also the most rabid Hillary supporters.

Maybe just my own bias.

and they favor neo-liberal trade policies the drive the majority into poverty so an elite few can enjoy luxury.

the DLC wing of the Dem/republican party whose goddess is the Hillary appear to be the most ardent Anti-Chavistas...

right-wing fascist corporate capitalists are just scared shitless at the success of Socialismo..

Hating Chavez.

Hating democracy.

Hating Bush.

Hating America.

Couldn't possibly have a reason for disagreeing with the man. Must be hate.

His supporters are the most disturbing thing about him.

And no, I don't support Hillary.

Meanwhile, does the BBC propagate right wing propaganda>

"the most ardent "catapulters" of Right Wing propaganda", nor one of the "most rabid Hillary supporters."

I LOVE DEMOCRACY!
Democracy is breaking out all over Venezuela.
I pray we can get us some here.
:patriot:

It's too bad we've all been duped by such a transparent, 9+ year campaign, to curry the favor of the "little people" by this evil would-be dictator.

lol

lol

My grandfather was a lifer in the military under a brutal dictator. I know brutal dictators. Mr. Chavez is no dictator.

At least, not yet.

Oddly enough, we gladly support some leaders who are very close to being dictators.

if you didn't have the DK ad. :evilgrin:

:hi:

pretended to brush up on their candidates!

For Immediate Release August 11, 2004

Contact: Eric Wingerter 202-347-8081

Former Democratic Presidential Candidates Rev. Jesse Jackson and Rep. Dennis Kucinich Announce Support for Venezuelan President Chavez

Political Leaders Joined by Actor Edward Asner and Historian Howard Zinn

Washington, DC — Jesse Jackson and Dennis Kucinich were joined by actors, historians and others in sending their support to Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, just days before he faces a historic vote on the future of his administration.

Noting the accomplishments of the Chávez administration to improve the lives of Venezuela’s impoverished majority, the joint letter expressed the signers’ “hope and expectation that, on August 15, you will once again win an electoral mandate from the Venezuelan people to be their president.”

Signed by a diverse sampling of well known Americans, including the Reverend Jesse Jackson and Congressman Dennis Kucinich, television star Edward Asner, and best-selling author Howard Zinn, the letter decried the role of the United States government in financing the opposition movement in Venezuela, including participants of a 2002 coup d’etat that briefly ousted the democratically-elected president from power. The signers pledged to heal the strained relationships between the United States and Venezuela.
(snip/...)

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/08-12-04solidarity.htm

¡Viva Chavez!

Hide and watch.

This guy makes GW seem Ok.

And why?

I agree completely.

By the way did you clone too?

You believe chavez is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Too bad his own countrymen don't share your sunny opinion of him.

which countrymen? Any sources we can read?

The sore losers who offered NO hope to the poor?