Do You Think THEY Ever Think?

Do you ever think about the fact that if you believe abortion is murder, you’re free to not have one? Of course, the people who don’t share your belief have never supported legislation that would force anyone to have an abortion. Do you ever wonder why you have a right to insist on legislation that denies their rights, and ignores their beliefs??

Do you realize that if you believe that homosexual activity is a sin, you don’t have to engage in it? If you live in fear that homosexuals are intent on trying to turn you into one of them, do you really think you’re so irresistibly attractive it’s worth their effort?

Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins? You might keep that in mind the next time you start acting like he died and left you boss.

Do you believe that you have a personal relationship with God? Then why do you insist on making a public display of it? I take it you have a personal relationship with your spouse, too – do you also talk about the details of that personal relationship in public?

Imagine a Christian president who, after two years in office, decides to convert to Islam. Now do you think separation of church and state is a bad idea? Still think your tax dollars should be doled out to the president’s choice of religious groups in the form of faith-based initiatives?

If you think working mothers are lousy parents, why don’t you support politicians who want to raise the minimum wage? If more fathers could earn a decent paycheck, more mothers could stay home with their kids.

Do you honestly believe that if God were to choose one man on earth to speak to directly, he actually would have picked George W. Bush?

Do you believe that Christ’s teachings are consistent with torture and the wholesale slaughter of innocent people? If so, then I have to agree with you – George W. Bush is a good Christian.

Don’t you find it ironic that you still think Bill Clinton was a bad president because he lied about his personal life, but you still support a president who lied the country into war?

Have you ever noticed that Bush and Cheney’s friends and families have made a fortune on their investments in and/or ownership of war activity-related companies, especially companies that have been awarded no-bid contracts by none other than Bush and Cheney?

Don’t you think it odd that every time the ‘insurgents’ in Iraq get more aggressive, more violent, and more visible, this administration hails it as a sign that the insurgents are running scared?

Don’t you think it odd that the more people who die in Iraq, both troops and civilians, the more the White House says it’s a sign that the “surge” is working?

Wouldn’t you think that “Supporting the Troops” would include not cutting their pay, pensions, benefits, or extending their tours of duty without rest periods away from combat?

Do you ever wonder why an administration that has nothing to hide keeps claiming executive privilege over an ever-growing number of things they want to keep hidden?

Do you ever wonder why administration officials who are called to testify insist on doing so behind closed doors, without being under oath? If they intend to tell the truth, why can’t they swear to that before speaking?

Have you noticed that the Republicans still talk about being the party of fiscal responsibility, even though they’ve run up the national debt to an unprecedented number?

Obviously, these are all rhetorical questions – because the fact is you don’t wonder, you don’t notice, you don’t think about any of these things at all.

It's all in the timing.

Actually, I wonder, notice, and think about these things a lot. We all do, don't we? It's a wonder that these moral, Christian, responsible, open and honest people aren't even smart enough to see these obvious holes in their "belief system."

The last four points, in particular, need to be hammered home!

:yourock:

Succinct. Perfect. Brilliant. TRUTH.

If you do not mind I think I will forward this to some rightwing fundies on my email list. They badly need a dose of pure undiluted truth to open their blinded eyes.

the Bush cartel answered these questions honestly they'd admit to making mistakes, something beyond their ability and comprehension. Then again, clear thinking is difficult when the burdens of thought disorders and loose associations obfuscate logic and reason. I can understand the war profiteers; it's about greed and personal gain. The faith based followers are another story. The really frightening part is that about one in five people driving cars are really nuts. The problem is that 20% are telling 80% what to do and the 20% are not the supermen to which Nietzsche referred.

If you listen to Republicans today, you realize THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THEY SCREWED UP!

so kneel down and pray to George or face eternal damnation.

I'll take the eternal damnation, thank you very much.

Although I am pro-choice I have never liked the logic behind the common "if you believe abortion is murder, you’re free to not have one" argument. I think that if that were generalized into almost any other situation we'd be very unhappy. Take a few issues that you feel strongly about, perhaps even consider to be "moral" issues, perhaps: If you don't believe in squandering natural resources you're free not to squander them. If you don't believe in bigotry you're free not to be a bigot. Or maybe one from the 19th Century: If you don't believe in slavery you're free not to own slaves. Pro-choice folks use this argument all the time, but with all due respect it's really, really bogus.

(Imagining that I'm the pro-lifer: ) tell me why my beliefs are wrong; but don't imply that I'm not supposed to act on my moral convictions simply because you don't agree with them.

pointing out that the examples you give to show the logical flaw have flaws of their own.

Squandering natural resources is stealing natural resources from the entire society but it is not illegal.
Bigotry is not illegal -- but acting on that bigotry such as beating up someone for being black or gay is illegal.
Slavery is illegal on the same grounds that kidnapping is illegal. It would be a stretch to make a comparison between abortion and slavery that would hold water IMO.

and I'm not willing to in any way equate legality with morality. No way. And you don't have to beat anybody up, or do ANYTHING outward, to be a bigot. You can be a bigot without doing anything illegal. And I'd almost bet you that a lot of pro-life folks believe that abortion steals from all of us. I'm not saying that I agree with that.

I am a nurse and have worked in women's clinics that provide abortions and am totally pro-choice, but I agree. The movement has not done itself any service by trivializing the "pro-life" strong beliefs. I think there should be more done in preventing unwanted pregnancy by empowering women and men to make better choices. And none of this abstinence only crap. Abstinence is a choice along with condoms, the pill, the patch etc.

I agree that "our side" makes a big mistake when it tries to paint all pro-lifers as rabid nut-cases. Whether or not you agree with their end beliefs, I think you should acknowlege the fact that some of them draw those beliefs from sincerely held convictions, similar in many cases to those of the men and women who led the movement against slavery 150 years ago.

The "if you don't believe in abortions don't have one" slogan gets tossed around so much that I think people say it without even thinking, but it has always bothered me.

but I have held the hands of hundreds of women who've made the decision to have an abortion. I have sent women away who were ambivalent or who were having an abortion because of family or financial pressure. I have given them the choice to go through with the pregnancy by getting them in touch with financial resources or even some of the "pro-life" groups who will help a woman with free prenatal care, child care and/or job training. I would never trivialize her feelings if she came to me and thought she was committing murder. I have asked some of these women to explore her feelings and see if she can come to terms with it after terminating her pregnancy. If not, maybe she should explore other ways to deal with her situation. It is so much more than just saying,"If you don't want to have an abortion, then just don't have one."

A woman with an unwanted pregnancy is more than just a trite little situation. She is at her most vulnerable. Statistically, pregnant and recently pregnant women are more likely to be victims of homicide than to die of any other cause. She is at a time in her life when many women are ecstatically happy, but for whatever reason she may may not be and have to make the(usually)agonizing decision to terminate her pregnancy. Bringing a child into this life is usually such a joy and a life changing experience for most women, so we have to understand those who feel so differently about abortion than we do.

I still believe in legal abortion without any restrictions and do not personally feel it is murder, but I can respect and even understand those who feel that it is. I just wish they would spend a little more energy in fighting unwanted pregnancy through education and empowerment of young people to make sexual decisions wisely. Sex is the most natural and gratifying feeling ever given to us by our creator. (God, Goddess, natural selection/evolution or a combination of all three) Without it we would all just be asexually splitting apart after replicating our own DNA and how boring is that?

I hope it's not too much of a contradiction, but I'm a pro-choicer who opposes abortion...that's probably not the best way to say it...I support a woman's right to choose abortion but first and formost I advocate policies and programs that would (hopefully) drastically reduce the need for abortion. It might be a cliche, but I'm with those who condemn the conservatives who obsess about fetuses but don't give a damn about people once they're born.

It's all about their faith system. They believe that their party, leader, and church tell the truth and do what is right. Very restful for the brain.

has always been: "If you're such good Christians, how come we didn't know that until you started shouting it at us?" Real faith (of any variety) doesn't need to be advertised; it's demonstrated in daily living. In my neighborhood, I get in trouble with these people on a regular basis by repeated assertions that the Bible is meant to be carried in the heart instead of a holster. They don't much like it when asked what version they read, King James, New Revised Standard, AK-47...

I had to forward this to a few people (I credited you, as I always do).

They only repeat what they are told to say. And most of it is about them forcing what they have been told is right upon the rest of the world, no matter how warped or how fundamentally wrong it might be.

I have a friend who is fairly new to politics and he has asked me, because he can't always remember, whether we're liberals or conservatives... *sigh* To make things easier, I told him that the conservatives are the ones who want to tell everyone else what to do...:grr:

It's exactly as you say. I told my friend that I'd be angry if I was forced to do something that I was opposed to, but what we believe is exactly the opposite of that. People should be free to make choices. This reminds me of something that Jon Stewart once said. He said that, considering all the controversy over gay marriage, he assumed that it must be mandatory...:crazy:

"Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins? You might keep that in mind the next time you start acting like he died and left you boss."

If only that had been printed at the beginning of the New Testament, history might have turned out differently.

As a frequent listener of right-wing radio, I can perhaps provide a service in this thread as playing the part of the THEY:

Your questions ...

Do you ever think about the fact that if you believe abortion is murder, you’re free to not have one? Of course, the people who don’t share your belief have never supported legislation that would force anyone to have an abortion. Do you ever wonder why you have a right to insist on legislation that denies their rights, and ignores their beliefs??

Abortion is indeed murder. Do liberals therefore want to remove murder laws because people are free not to commit it?

Do you realize that if you believe that homosexual activity is a sin, you don’t have to engage in it? If you live in fear that homosexuals are intent on trying to turn you into one of them, do you really think you’re so irresistibly attractive it’s worth their effort?

We don't care if people want to have homosexual sex and go to hell. We just don't want our laws changed to endorse such behavior that breaks down our families and leads to an immoral and unstable society. Should we also define marriage as between people and animals too?

Do you believe that Jesus died for your sins? You might keep that in mind the next time you start acting like he died and left you boss.

He sure did die for my sins, and the least I can do as gratitude is help create a world that He would approve of. If He's willing to die for the sins of the world, I should certainly try to prevent more sinning.

Do you believe that you have a personal relationship with God? Then why do you insist on making a public display of it? I take it you have a personal relationship with your spouse, too – do you also talk about the details of that personal relationship in public?

The Lord commands us to spread our faith. How can I not when I know that all unbelievers will burn in Hell? I'm trying to help them for God's sake!

Imagine a Christian president who, after two years in office, decides to convert to Islam. Now do you think separation of church and state is a bad idea? Still think your tax dollars should be doled out to the president’s choice of religious groups in the form of faith-based initiatives?

First of all, "separation of church and state" is a lie created by god-hating Liberals. This was always intended to be a Christian nation. And therefore, this business about a President converting to Islam would be against the wishes of the founding fathers and such an unamerican heathen would be removed.

If you think working mothers are lousy parents, why don’t you support politicians who want to raise the minimum wage? If more fathers could earn a decent paycheck, more mothers could stay home with their kids.

As John Stossel and others have pointed out - if you would only pay attention - is that raising the minimum wage causes employers to cut jobs in order to save money. What's better then - two employed people making 6 dollars and hour, or one employed person making 8 dollars an hour?

Do you honestly believe that if God were to choose one man on earth to speak to directly, he actually would have picked George W. Bush?

God just doesn't speak to Bush, He speaks to all of us. Bush just happens to be one of the few that listen (like me).

Do you believe that Christ’s teachings are consistent with torture and the wholesale slaughter of innocent people? If so, then I have to agree with you – George W. Bush is a good Christian.

I'm glad you agree that Bush is a good Christian. I think so too. God killed many unbelievers in the great Exodus, some surely nice people, and regularly does so today with earthquakes in homosexual California and Katrina in debaucherous New Orleans.

Don’t you find it ironic that you still think Bill Clinton was a bad president because he lied about his personal life, but you still support a president who lied the country into war?

Bush never lied! All the weapons went to Syria. You should really stop believing everything the liberal media tells you.

Have you ever noticed that Bush and Cheney’s friends and families have made a fortune on their investments in and/or ownership of war activity-related companies, especially companies that have been awarded no-bid contracts by none other than Bush and Cheney?

Oh, here we again. I'm a liberal and I hate rich people! There's nothing wrong with people making money, or for that matter investing in patriotic corporations that keep our country safe.

Don’t you think it odd that every time the ‘insurgents’ in Iraq get more aggressive, more violent, and more visible, this administration hails it as a sign that the insurgents are running scared?

They are running scared! They're like a cornered lion! They'll be defeated in any second! Just give it time. I swear - you liberals and your desire for instant satisfaction. Spreading freedom takes time!

Don’t you think it odd that the more people who die in Iraq, both troops and civilians, the more the White House says it’s a sign that the “surge” is working?

You just said it: More people are dying - including insurgents. Hooray for the surge!

Wouldn’t you think that “Supporting the Troops” would include not cutting their pay, pensions, benefits, or extending their tours of duty without rest periods away from combat?

"Rest?" We're in a war. Hello? And don't start using the troops in your liberal class war.

Do you ever wonder why an administration that has nothing to hide keeps claiming executive privilege over an ever-growing number of things they want to keep hidden?

Yea sure, let's all be liberal and publish our state secrets on the front page of the liberal New York Times everyday! Bush is keeping you safe with that information!

Do you ever wonder why administration officials who are called to testify insist on doing so behind closed doors, without being under oath? If they intend to tell the truth, why can’t they swear to that before speaking?

Maybe they don't want to be victims of the Democrats legal "gotcha" games.

Have you noticed that the Republicans still talk about being the party of fiscal responsibility, even though they’ve run up the national debt to an unprecedented number?

Again ... war? Hello?

Obviously, these are all rhetorical questions – because the fact is you don’t wonder, you don’t notice, you don’t think about any of these things at all.

Maybe if I too smoked marijuana, I would "wonder, notice and think" as you do.



That's pretty good bullshit, eh? I swear I could have my own Clear Channel Radio show.

I think that there are some "right-wing" personalities out there doing an act just like this.

I get that sense from people like Tony Snow, Tucker Carlson ...

to some real conversations I've had with certain wingers. But I do wonder: How do you cleanse the brain after writing something like that? And, yes, it is good bullshit. I live in the part of the country where the stuff is manufactured, and the nose is quite familiar with it!

I didn't have to think about any of them for a second (that being the point I suppose). I already had the thoughts in my head, ready to use at a moment's notice, installed from way too many hours of right-wing radio. I call those radio personalities "Thought Providers" and they're just that, handing out ready-made thoughts for every occasion. One can get an inkling of how easily people are controlled if their higher cognitive functions can be preempted by such "thought products." Oh damn, "thought products." I gotta use that one more often. It's mine! :think:

deserve an award for listening to so much of their bullshit that you have it memorized. I also occasionally watch Faux, or listen to some right wing nut job on c-span. However, I usually can only take ten or fifteen minutes before my gag reflex kicks in, or I want to throw something through my television set. Kudos, and kudos again!:hi:

BTW, great piece, Nancy!:D

That works. Kind of processed cheese food. Very unlike the original.

The "thought products" of right-wing radio definitely don't have any connection to thought. In fact, just like Cheez Whiz they are a very unhealthy replacement for the real thing.

Scary that you've internalized all that stuff. Be well!

It's so amazing when you lay out the worldview of rightwingers so starkly like that how inherently childish it is: how blindly trusting in a magical, all-knowing benevolent power, whether it be the fundamentalist God or the Bush administration.

You sure hit a lot of nails right on their poor lil'heads!
You go girl!

K & R

:hug: :applause: :woohoo: :bounce: :toast: :patriot: :hug:

I mean, suppose it were legal to kill people of Irish descent. Would the challenge, "Do you ever think about the fact that if you believe killing Irishmen is murder, you're free to not kill them?" make any sense to you? The belief that the taking of a particular kind of life is "murder" pretty much entails that it is appropriate (even morally obligatory!) not merely to refrain from it yourself but also to prohibit others from doing it as well.

There is no way to concede a right to believe abortion is murder without acknowledging the other commitments that belief entails. And since murder is by definition an unlawful taking of life, you must accept that people who hold that abortion is murder should be expected to oppose the practice by *anyone*. It's part and parcel of what it means to call some killing "murder!"

The belief itself is what needs to be challenged. Acknowledge that abortion ends a life, but engage "them" on what that does and does not imply. Challenge them concerning whether the death of a fetus equates to murder. (For instance, do we hold funerals after miscarriages?)

So long as one holds that abortion really is murder, how can you possibly ridicule efforts they see as prevention of murder? It's instructive to probe a "pro-lifer" on what they consider exceptions (e.g. rape & incest) as well as their attitudes on capital punishment, war and peace, etc., and those who are thoughtful might recognize that it's usually not quite so simple as "unique set of human chromosomes + beating heart = being whose killing is murder" even for them. Which opens the door to their seeing that it's not so simple for the rest of us, either, and that a certain respect for divergent viewpoints is rational. And that is where you need to bring someone for it to make any sense at all to think in terms of choice.

... about "killing Irishmen". There is a vast difference between ending the life of a fully-formed, functioning human being and ending the life of a "potential but not yet born" human being - if I can use that term.

On the question of abortion, I have more empathy for those who are anti-choice than you might imagine. I fully understand that people who believe abortion is murder, or killing, often feel compelled to stop such behaviour in others. I don't agree with that; but I do understand it.

However, everyone should be able to accept that if your anti-abortion stance is based on your religious or moral beliefs, there are also going to be people whose beliefs are different than yours.

I have several very Liberal friends who would never have an abortion under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES - and yet they are pro-choice, because they do not think their beliefs should dictate the behaviour of others.

I know it's not the same matter of a life-and-death issue, but think about other religious beliefs - an Orthodox Jew believes it is a sin to eat pork or shellfish, and yet you don't see him demanding that non-Jews adhere to the same dietary laws.

What I have a REAL problem with, however, is the Fundie-type approach to abortion. They insist on abstinence-only sex education, restricted access to birth control, and they HOWL if anyone even mentions free condoms. But at the same time, if a pregnant teenager winds up keeping her baby and living on social assistance, these people again scream about "another Welfare Queen living off their tax dollars because she brought a child into the world that she couldn't afford to care for on her own."

Unfortunately, there is no bringing people like that into a rational discussion. They just don't want to hear any opinion or position other than their own.

and for many of them, that's why they get stuck. I agree there is a vast difference between killing Irishmen and an abortion, but you can't concede "abortion is murder" (even if only in someone else's opinion) without implicitly acknowledging that it makes sense in light of that belief to "impose those values" on others. After all, we don't excuse hate crimes because their perpetrators might believe their victims are sub-human, and we're right not to do so. And we're right not to lose sleep over "imposing our morality."

I do agree on the big picture. What I see with most "pro-lifers" is instead a kind of punitive, anti-sex mentality. You can see this when they start to crumble on questions about cases of rape and incest. Suddenly fetal life is no longer sacred. Women who choose to have sex must "live with the consequences," but rape victims were "good girls" who were wronged and "deserve" the choice. (Though one suspects that in their heart of hearts they'd love to add an exception to their exception for women who were "asking for it...") And of course, if they were sincere they'd be promoting birth control AND the option of abstinence. For most of "them" it's about control more than grief over some "hidden holocaust."

I once got into an argument with an anti-choicer, who insisted that abortion should be illegal, without exception.

I suggested to her that she should put her name on an adoption waiting list. "In nine months, a baby will be brought to your home. It's yours. It may be healthy, or it may be so sickly it needs 24-hour care for the rest of its life, for which you will be responsible."

Her reaction was immediate: "But that wouldn't be fair. I'm not prepared to have another baby, especially right now. I don't have the financial wherewithal to raise another child, especially a special needs child ..," blah, blah, blah.

I then explained to her that THAT was exactly the position she wanted to put other women in who found they were pregnant but did not want another child, for any number of reasons.

She had no come-back.

It's always about "the other woman" who should have to carry a child to term and raise it, regardless of circumstances, wanted or not; it is NEVER about THEM.

There are some who walk the walk and adopt, run centers that actually help women who've chosen to keep their babies, etc. Hats off to them! But there aren't many; talk is so much cheaper!

that someone could please read this to *?

This is a definite K & R. :kick:

Why create a bunch of strawmen to mock Republican voters? DU does not really need any encouragement to hate or belittle Republicans. Yep, they are all a bunch of fugging idiots. Too bad they outnumber us though.

Here's what I see here. You basically write: "George Bush is a liar, and you are a fugging idiot who supports a liar."

Not that I do any better. I wrote an LTTE 4 weeks ago, and a guy in my club is still giving me crap about 'bashing Bush'. Which I did. I said he has lied, and lied, and lied. I try not to do it in such a way that they get mad at the messenger, but I guess I did not provide enough evidence, just the testimony of four witnesses. I expect that most Republicans do not like being lied to, and do not support torture. Therefore, if I can detail Bush's lies and Bush's support of torture, they will get mad at him.

By looking down on THEM and talking down to them you seem to want to make them mad - at you, or us by extension, or to encourage your fellow progressives to be more arrogant and more hateful towards them.

Many of these people are not all that stupid, and even if they are, I thought it was a liberal principle to have sympathy for the stupid, to try to educate them rather than just belittle them.

I myself have run out of patience with the blindly, deliberately stupid Bushbots. If they can't see the truth by now, they're beyond hope. Besides, they've been talkiing down to us and mocking us for years.

I am merely commenting on the inherent contradictions, and often the hypocrisy, of their positions on a number of issues.

I don't think ALL Republicans are stupid or ill-informed; in fact, I've often taken just the opposite position here on DU (suitably outfitted in my asbestos suit!)

And I am not talking about ALL Republicans here. I am talking about those who simply refuse to hear the facts, or think things through -- not because they are stupid, but because they are too ARROGANT to accept that their position on anything might be wrong, or confused, or ill-advised.

I'm talking about the people -- and we've all seen them on other sites, or have had discussions with them in person -- who respond to a fact being offered on climate change with, "Oh, yeah, well all Liberals are immoral drunks!", or reply to a question about their religious beliefs with, "The Bible is the literal written word of God, and if you don't KNOW that, you're an idiot!"

These people are beyond being educated -- simply because they don't want to be. Their political positions are based on bumper-stickers like "Support the Troops", and they don't want to HEAR about how the troops are being screwed by this administration.

As for making people mad at me, or at anyone else, I write strictly for
my fellow DUers. And while my articles do wind up on RW sites, I am completely uninterested in their reaction to anything I have to say. In fact, most of them DON'T react to what I say - they simply fabricate nonsensical little stories about my alleged drinking habits, my occupation, my looks, my weight, my family, et cetera -- all from people who have no idea who I am, or what I do, or anything about me. (I must admit that at times, I do find it all rather amusing!)

And by the way, they no longer outnumber us. Voters identifying themselves as Democrats versus Republicans are now in the majority -- something which changed drastically between 2003 and today. (So much for Rove's permanent Republican Majority - I guess he didn't have "the math" after all!)

I do appreciate your comments, and take them in the spirit in which they were undoubtedly written. But I am not responsible for what angers other people, any more than I am responsible to try and educate those who are incapable of engaging in an intelligent discussion.

So that means Republicans win when people don't think. Do you think it's a coincidence that Republicans are against education, healthcare, and security(financial/homeland)? The last thing these bastards want is a healthy, educated, and confident citizenry. They want every last one of us to be sick, ignorant, and afraid, so they can easily control us.

I like telling these guys that freedom really is free and then I ask how the Iraq war is fighting for our freedom. They usually say something about nazis or soviets taking over America if liberals were in charge (liberals like FDR, Truman, Kennedy, etc). But they can never tell you how the Iraq war gives us freedom. They can never tell you how giving up civil liberties and personal freedom gives us "freedom".

I will start repeating will be, How is the Iraq war fighting for our freedom.

Another good one Nance. Thanks.

and for all of you ranting about abortion.... it's not about abortion, it is about SEX!!!

(for the sake of argument, let's assume that i am female)

it is MY body, and i will do with it as a please.

your opinion is irrelevant.

if i were pregnant, do you REALLY THINK you could MAKE me have the baby? do you EVER think you can prosecute women for murder, if they have an abortion?

your god is a joke. i'll deal with HIM (after all, he DOES have a penis, doesn't he? does HE lift the lid?) on my on terms, when the time comes.

you do NOT speak for him. neither does little lord pissypants.

you can pass all the laws you want, dress it up in whatever mumbojumbo you please. it is irrelevant.

we have come full circle to "you don't want an abortion, THEN DON'T FUCKING HAVE ONE!"

end of discussion.

plus, if you are MALE, and spout all this crap...

you WILL be a virgin when you marry.

you will NEVER, EVER have sex with anyone other than your spouse, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. GET IT? you are allowed to have sex with ONE PERSON, for your entire life. with the exception of death of your spouse, then you MAY get to have sex with a second person.

you WILL be economically responsible for your offspring for the first 20 years of their life, possibly longer. you will not avoid it, you will eagerly offer your support.

are you ready to take the oath, SO HELP YOUR PRECIOUS GOD?

i thought so.

you fucking hypocrite!

It is ultimately about sex. You're dead on.

The trouble is that many individuals are sincerely blind to that. They've drunk so much kool aid that they fret about whether the various birth control methods work by preventing implantation after fertilization. They are not consciously anti-sex, they've just... well, as Nance suggests, they don't really think.

My claim is that when someone says "Abortion is murder," we should not say, "Yes dear, I know you have this quaint belief and I respect that, but you know others disagree and you must respect that as well." It's both condescending and pointedly ignores the moral force of the word "murder." We must explain why "murder" is not the right way to think about it, and beyond the technical point that abortion is legal, therefore it cannot be the unlawful taking of life.

We need, if we hope to engage these people in critical thought (which is the first step!), to encourage some reflection. If embryos are people do you hold funerals for miscarriages? Why are you not shutting down fertility clinics? (OK, that's probably better left unsaid lest it be taken as a good idea!) Unless they can push past the "human life (in the relevant sense) begins at conception" dogma there's no breaking the internal logic of a position based on that questionable premise.

Of course, we can choose not to engage them and simply mock or scold them and count on holding sufficient political power to keep choice as the law. But as the nightmare of *'s presidency has shown, that's a precarious position unless we get people to think.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_DQUAuNUvw

The text of the one I was gona show you lives here: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechinheritthewind.html

The text is there, but for some reason, the audio... does not work so well anymore. :tinfoilhat:

:hi::loveya::hi:

Will see if I can find other media.

Peace...

See 'Inherit The Wind' Parts I and II.

:hi:

The first time I saw that movie, I was in my teens. I remember how hard it was to believe that such ignorance was once so acceptable in my modern, forward-thinking country.

Little did I know that it would happen all over again ...

to be operating on all burners at once. There are very straightforward thoughts most accept as common sense. For instance, the one about, supporting the troops. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't see one of those yellow ribbons that say support the troops. You hope they will actually do that. My sister's only healthy son became a soldier this year. He wants to support the guys who are stuck over there. I'm afraid it will be a price that my family has not come to terms with yet.

Let's all keep a good thought for your nephew, and his fellow soldiers.

And excellent discussion.

And I want to highlight my favorite line from the whole piece ...

"Do you realize that if you believe that homosexual activity is a sin, you don’t have to engage in it? If you live in fear that homosexuals are intent on trying to turn you into one of them, do you really think you’re so irresistibly attractive it’s worth their effort?"

Oh, my. That's a classic line. :rofl:

had to give it another rec.

Thanks for the great post!!

:)
DR

I believe when you choose not to have an abortion you choose not to have the chance to give a life a chance. I also believe if you choose not to donate your un implanted embryos you choose not to give life a chance. I also believe you have that right to choose.

I believe there are many sins, but I don't believe the right one's are illegal, or rather, I don't believe the morality of governments, espescially this one, should be as closely defined as a sin is, nor should they have the power of the state a law has.

I remember Jesus said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Any takers?

I thought the CONGRESS was in CHARGE OF THE MONEY in this country.

I believe mothers have been blamed for quite enough already, thank you, working, at home, too close to your kids, too aloof, too permissive, to strict.................. call your mothers

Honestly, about Bush, .... I would rather not .... oh O.K. NO I relay do not but they say he does work in strange ways, and BUSH is PRETTY STRANGE.

I find it amazing the insurgents seem to "act up" when ever the administration needs them to.

Yes, and maybe even listening to the learned leaders of said troops.

No, Absolute power will do any thing do and say anything to stay absolutely in power.

No, no paper, no evidence. The oath means nothing, it is already (rumored to be) against the law to testify untruthfully in congress whether you take an oath or not.

The money talk just makes me laugh, sorry.

:thumbsup:

I have felt this part over and over and over again:

"Do you realize that if you believe that homosexual activity is a sin, you don’t have to engage in it? If you live in fear that homosexuals are intent on trying to turn you into one of them, do you really think you’re so irresistibly attractive it’s worth their effort?"

I often think, "get over yourself, you are NOT THAT HOT!" when someone is offended by my gayness. We are attracted to others (of the same sex) in the same way that straight people are and NOT just because someone is the same sex. Ick, I have taste, you know.