Observations on Hillary from cyberspace

I popped over to Townhall.com to see what's going on over on the right side of town, when I noticed something odd. Hillary Clinton is heavily criticized by both the right and left, but strangely in completely opposite ways. I think we're all familiar with some of the popular knocks on Hillary here at DU. Here are some quick observations:

The right says she's a socialist, the left says she's a pro-corporate stooge.

The right says she's weak on national security, the left says she's a war hawk.

The right says she hates the military, the left says she loves them.

The right says she would surrender America to the terrorists (http://townhall.com/columnists/DouglasMacKinnon/2007/08/21/news_of_the_future_president_hillary_clinton_surrenders_america ">I kid you not ), the left says she will expand America's Imperial ambitions.

I've never seen anything like this. I know all candidates will be criticized, but Hillary's critics are attacking her from polar opposite positions. It's kind of fascinating to me. How is that possible? Bush is hated for different reasons on the right and left, but I don't believe from both sides of one issue.

Thoughts?

whether we like it or not.

I think we can't criticize her here without being called FReepers no matter how legitimate our gripe.

I think if I HAVE to vote for her I will, but it will hurt a good amount of my beleif in democracy.

I think there's something fishy going on, but that's really unfounded...

if it's going to hurt your belief in democracy that much, then save yourself the martyrdom and just don't vote.

Great way to support your candidate...

My grandmother used to complain endlessly about the candidate (didn't matter which one, they were all crooks to her) and would then tirelessly moan and groan about having to vote for (fill in the blank). I'll hold my nose and do it, she'd say, but I'm not going to like it. And she'd vote. And then our family would be held hostage to her bitter sighs and moans of "I told you so"s for the next 4 to 8 years when the President would commit even the smallest of infractions eg. "He wore THAT tie?! Oh, I knew I never should have voted for him. It was going to be a mistake, I knew it. It's just horrible" For years we heard a true I Voted Martyr at work and, trust me, if it's THAT upsetting to you, save your loved ones the trouble and just don't vote.

This has nothing to do with any candidate or anything, but, rather, with giving one the choice to either stand by what appear to be rock-solid principles about Democracy and how close you hold it to your heart or to make the choice to be a martyr who spends every day reminding everyone that you held your nose, went against those principles you KNEW WERE RIGHT and voted and now look at the "mess" everything is in. In other words, the "don't blame me, I held my nose and voted even though I didn't like the Nominee" defense.

Call it pathetic, call me horrible names, question my patriotism, I really don't give a shit. People who swear they'll vote for the candidate (but will hold their noses while doing so) are a new DU inspired pet peeve I have and, in my view, are just "give me attention and convince me why I should lower my lofty standards and deign to give X my vote" idiots screaming for attention. In fact, I'm just really getting over this overgrown schoolyard I used to know as Democratic Underground.

Perhaps it's time for me to take a l-o-n-g vacation.

I just said I'd vote for her if I HAD to, but I don't think she represents what I believe in.

That's not schoolyard, it's how I feel. I don't support Hawks and I think we need some real progressive action.

Apparently you've taken it to a whole new level of analysis. If "People who swear they'll vote for the candidate (but will hold their noses while doing so)" are your pet peave you live a charmed life.

:)

n/t

PB

"I have always sought for the middle ground."
—James Madison

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent."
—Thomas Jefferson

"Just as Lincoln got contradictory advice from the extremists of both sides . . . so now I have to guard myself against the extremists of both sides."
—Theodore Roosevelt

"Extremes to the right and left of any political dispute are always wrong."
—Dwight D. Eisenhower

"The middle of the road is all of the usable surface. The extremes, right and left, are in the gutters."
—Dwight D. Eisenhower

"Extreme opposites resemble the other. Each believes that we have only two choices..."
—John F. Kennedy

"Extremists on the left tend to be just as critical of pragmatism as extremists on the right."
—Richard Nixon

"On human rights, civil rights and environmental quality, I consider myself to be very liberal. On the management of government, on openness of government, on strengthening individual liberties and local levels of government, I consider myself a conservative. And I don't see that the two attitudes are incompatible."
—Jimmy Carter

"When we put aside partisanship, embrace the best ideas regardless of where they come from and work for principled compromise, we can move America not left or right, but forward."
—Bill Clinton

"The choice we offer is not conservative or liberal. In many ways its not even Republican or Democratic. Its different. Its new. And it will work."
—Bill Clinton

"I'm too fiscally conservative for the Democrats and too socially liberal for the Republicans, like 75% of the American people."
—Governor Angus King

I like the quotes though. Guess Hillary's got some good company in this regard...

and more importantly, her most vigorous efforts go to the right and the further right.

Personally, I will vote for her should we be dim enough to nominate her, but only for the imminent SCOTUS nominations. The SCOTUS will have the longest lasting, and will be the most potentially damaging, effects of anything likely to be done in the next couple of administrations.

"The choice we offer is not conservative or liberal. In many ways its not even Republican or Democratic. Its different. Its new. And it will work."
—Bill Clinton

The extemes make most of the noise, but have little say in the outcome.

ELECTED THE PRESIDENT THE LAST TWO ELECTIONS IN A ROW.

The whole time the DLC has been abandoning the base and reaching to the independents and republicans, the republicans have been playing to the base, and taking what independents and democrats they can. And with that strategy (and a little judicious cheating) they won.

There's nothing in the middle of the road but a yellow line and dead armadillos.

...attack the same person for being way too far in the other direction, that's probably the most reliable indicator that said person is a real centrist.

Like so few on DU I'm sad to say.

Like so many of the electorate I'm happy to say.

That in a nutshell explains those good poll results far more than wild-eyed tin foil hattery about media conspracies and Rovian manipulation. More people support Hilklary because more people are in the center.

Hillary remains my 3rd or 4th choice, yet I take this as a good indication she inhabits the same moderate part of the political continuum I do.

Annoy the extreme few. Sway the moderate many. That's triangulation in the political sense, away from its negatively loaded paranoid definition often expressed on messageboards of both stripes.

The media has been very gentle with her. Murdoch has fundraised for her. The corporate media talks about her strength, and resilience, while not subjecting her to any real attacks. That makes the squishy middle comortable with her.

Then, after she gets the nomination, you will see a media campaign that will make the swiftboat attacks look like Hallmark cards. The independents, the squishy middle, will flee in terror because it will upset their little comfort zone.

And she will have no support from either the right or left. She loses.

that we've had for the last 15 years? Or do you think Scaife has been keeping some big skeletons in her closet a secret waiting for the right moment? Exactly how much patience do you think even the American Idol crowd will have with a rehash of already-digested and already-dismissed Whitewater, Vince Foster, Rose Law crap?

Can you maybe name me a Dem candidate whom the smear machine will NOT go after non stop?

It would be nice to think there was a moderate position staked out but in HRC's case I think it mostly has to do with being on both sides of every issue. I can think of Iran as an example - stating that the Admin hasn't been tough enough on them and all options should be on the table, and then later saying that nukes shouldn't be an option on the table. Each extreme can take solace in one of those statements and, conversely, be very upset at the other statement.

So it's not moderation, it's speaking out of both sides of the mouth at the same time. I think today's statement re: things are working in Iraq but it's too late so we should bring (some) of the troops home is the same thing - some will fasten on to the first part of the statement, some the second, and each will attack the part they don't agree with.

If you look at Clinton's voting record, I think you'll see that she's often managed to vote on both sides of an issue. I believe it's done purposefully, because I believe what she's most worried about (like Bill) is being attacked. Granted, with bills stuffed with every topic under the sun, it's tough to say exactly what someone was voting for or against with a vote. But with HRC it's even tougher, because she doesn't lay out clear policy statements, just broad goals and objectives.

rather than divide it!We have already done enough division with Bush. Lets try some healing.She is not the "girl" to do it obviously!

Rethug win. They're counting on the RW noise machine (AKA corporate media) to get out the Rethug vote, and they're counting on a lot of progressive and old style Dems to not vote.

Nobody is going to unify this country or close to it running on a non-centrist platform. Even Edwards's populism is of the safe and moderate stripe. He's talking about a level playing fields and a balanced budget and taxing the rich what they were taxed in the 1990s when they did so well - very much responsibel centrism. He's not talking like a Eugene Debs or even a Jimmy Carter. He's not suggesting 70% income tax brackets or nationalizing the economy. All 3 of the major Dem candidates are centrists who vary not that much in substantive issues. Edwards leans a bit more towards more fiscal reform than the others, which is good because so do I - but his plans are far from ultra-progressive.

One end of the spectrum is grounded in faith.
The other end is grounded in reality.

I am "considering" it.

you either get everybody behind you, as Bill did, or you get everybody against you, as she's done.

She doesn't have the political skills or charm to pull off what Bill did.

of Dorian Grey. He gets all the acclaim, she gets all the criticism.

Dem or overall.

Damn I wish Bill Richardson were so successful at getting everybody against him.

Does that mean that NO ONE really knows who she is or what she stands for? Maybe that's why I have a problem relating to Hillary. Perhaps she's the chameleon candidate. Great observation. Thought provoking.

Or maybe this is what results from twisting with the wind of perceived public opinion -- as in voting to give Dubya the power to invade Iraq.

Branch. GO HOME - fade into semi-obscurity NOT elevate into political royalty! We are The United States of America NOT The United Kingdom. There are no ROYAL Families to be recognized here. :grr: