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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 04:39 PM
Original message
Our party is falling into the syndrome of misleading words, using partial truth or propaganda. .
Edited on Fri Sep-14-07 04:47 PM by madfloridian
I am noticing it a lot lately. I am noticing it about the issues surrounding the Iraq War. Congress can put a stop to the dying by defunding the war, which is their constitutionally given power. Not a pretty thought, but it is part of their job description. The spin around it is almost unbearable. They say can't stop it until Republicans get on board. That is really not the case.

Third Way is telling them not to use that power. Feingold has powerful words.

Who's advising Congress not to use their constitutional power of the purse?

Russ Feingold: ....."The Constitution gives Congress the explicit power “to declare War,” “to raise and support Armies,” “to provide and maintain a Navy” and “to make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces.” In addition, under Article I, “No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law.” These are direct quotes from the Constitution of the United States. Yet to hear some in the Administration talk, it is as if these powers were written in invisible ink. They were not. These powers are a clear and direct statement from the founders of our republic that Congress has authority to declare, to define and, ultimately, to end a war.


There has been very little honesty in another issue as well. Florida"s Democratic leaders used propaganda to damage the role of the DNC and to hurt it's fundraising. They unfortunately did a very good sales job on the Young Democrats and many of the Florida bloggers. I have lost friends at least temporarily over this issue.

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.

Friday, August 31, 2007

It's not a very proud time to be a Floridian.

We're looking bad again - and deservedly so. It's over voting. (Surprise!) And this time, a purely self-inflicted

Unfortunately, there's no good way to honey-coat this. Florida's transgression is something that people can understand, even if they have no interest in politics. It's one of those things you learn in kindergarten: Don't cut in line.

In this case, the national political parties have created a lineup of state primaries, spacing out the state-by-state votes on a schedule designed to be politically beneficial to the parties. Does it make sense? You could make the argument that the early-voting states, Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada serve as a kind of spring-training season, where candidates gain credibility, or lose it, before the bigger states with lots of electoral votes weigh in.

The wisdom of the lineup, though, is beside the point. What's important is that without the national parties imposing some kind of order, there would be the kind of anarchy you see at a supermarket when a new cash register opens and a swarm of shopping carts collide trying to get there first.


The party leaders are pitting the people of the party against Howard Dean and the DNC in a pretty obvious effort to hurt his influence. Some are catching on to the ploys, but any are not.

Those are not the only lies and partial truths still going on. Candidates pledged to the four early states they would not campaign in Florida and Michigan....again partial truths and downright lies in some cases.

And to me the most vital and most outrageous thing of all. The candidates who refuse to take responsibility for their vote to invade a sovereign country, assassinate the leaders' son, put their bodies on public display, hang the country's leader and gloat about it....they should be ashamed.

This is a new low for our country. We openly bombed innocents and called it shock and awe, and our leaders mostly remained silent.

This episode from Matt Bai's recent book where he is discussing the Democracy Alliance, DA, shows a very angry Bill Clinton when questioned about Hillary's vote for the war. Since he once openly said he defended Bush against the left, he should have been more careful in his answer. It is not a proud episode.

Battle for party's soul

In the end, Bill Clinton frames Matt Bai's book

In probably the book's most riveting scene, former President Bill Clinton shows up as a surprise guest at the Austin DA confab. After Clinton's usual smooth presentation, Guy Saperstein, one of America's most successful trial lawyers and a DA expert in foreign affairs and healthcare, rose to ask a question. Saperstein mentioned that John Edwards had already apologized about voting to authorize the Iraq war. "Why shouldn't every Democrat who voted for the war -- including presumably Hillary Clinton -- do the same thing? How were Democrats supposed to have any credibility if they wouldn't admit when they had been so calamitously wrong."

Clinton quickly went ballistic: "He leaned forward belligerently and pointed a finger at Saperstein. 'You're wrong,' he said. 'Everything you just said is totally wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.'" He went on to explain away Hillary's vote on the war and tell Saperstein he wasn't productive. "Only in this party do we eat our own. You can go on misrepresenting and bashing our own people, but I am sick and tired of it."

Clinton later apologized and realized he had made an error, but it was too late for many of the people in Austin. On the surface, the exchange had been about the war, but it symbolized much more: "It had been about Clintonism itself and the centrist governing ethos that had led the party to this place in its history." To the progressives, Clinton's desire to remake the Democratic Party "had stripped the party of its moral authority."

Bai documents Clinton's attempts to patch up what almost all attendees perceived to be a defensive reaction from the former president. Some sensed deeply that the exchange represented the chasm between the more issue-oriented and anti-war progressives -- probably a majority of the DA -- and the "pragmatic" insiders who prefer to steamroll dissent.


Saperstein's question was fair. It should have been answered properly.

Our party has a lot of issues to work through right now. I am fearful that in the process of getting over the fear of the right wing...that we will attack and diminish the voices who in their courage in speaking out helped bring us this far toward taking back some power in this country.

It is being done now in Florida to one of those voices. It is being done by a man who never really stood up for much of anything, yet he is mounting a campaign against the man many progressives consider their leader.

Too many convenient half truths, too many actual lies, too much propaganda.




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Redstone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Our Party is punking out, isn't that what you're trying to say? Guess what,
you're absolutely correct in that assertion.

We sent them to Washington last year do to what? Stop that stupid fucking pointless war, THAT's what.

And have they done that? Or even made a half-hearted attempt?

Redstone
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midlife_mo_Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. " Or even made a half-hearted attempt?"
Edited on Fri Sep-14-07 06:09 PM by midlife_mo_Jo
Nope.

Not even a half-assed attempt! They are disregarding their responsibility to the American people and especially to the men and women who serve.

Follow the money - follow the oil money and war complex money. I bet it's not a pretty site. :(
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. A frustration
that signals this is quite another time and another challenge than what Clinton faced, when the progrssives jumped on board in lessobviously critical times. This is a time calling for more clarity and unity and Clinton senses his wife is not getting it. the times are different. The theft, the lies, the compromises... Would Bill like to repeat the unique and risky success of his first term? Everything is different and what was wisdom then is gloss and moire dangerous risk now. The theft and tryanny machine is not broken, not faced down in large part due to his legacy and philosophy.

He was cool then, he is frustrated now. Times have changed and cruelty has thrown things into much clearer light, for the progressives at least.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I don't think our party leaders understand that the Iraq war changed it all.
For years they went along on less serious issues until it became habit. Then came Iraq....and I don't know how we get over that without total honesty.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. democrats will not stop using republican approved framing and words: war vs occupation etc nt
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. They will continue to play political games as long as we vote for them.
Most of our current democratic candidates handed bush a loaded gun and continued to give him more ammo when he asked. They didn't want to risk hurting their political careers by making a stand to end the blood shed even after they gave him that loaded gun. Why do Americans still want to put a candidate in the white house that has shown us that they will play political games with peoples lives. What else will they play games with, our constitutional rights? Why is it that only one candidate has been against the war from the beginning and standing up and speaking out about the attack on our civil rights? Why is it that it is the same candidate that the media has completely ignored? Just a coincidence? It seems we have choices out there that support what we stand for but since the media doesn't cover them, we disregard what they may stand for. What they could do for us, instead we fall into the political games and will continue to vote in people that will still play political games with our lives and our families lives. When we wake up and stop supporting the people playing the games, maybe then we can see change in America?
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. I regret that a number of warmongering blue dog democrats can no longer depend
on The Liberal base of our party's vote. We've been made their favorite scapegoat and whipping post for far too long. Anyone FOR continuing this bloodbath of an occupation is NOT going to get my vote. PERIOD!
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. The Dem Congress better pull up their socks --
and do they work we sent them there to do or they may not have a base to turn to in November 2008.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. When Think Tanks and Lobbyists Run our Government...what can we expect?
And ...after all this time...what have we done to change it? Howard Dean was the BEST THING to come on to the Dem Scene after all these years. Look at what's being done to him...........
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I agree, KoKo n/t
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. Defunding *won't* end the war
Bush is already moving to make the Iraq bases permanent, at which point they become routine DoD funding. In addition, Congress has not said they *can't* defund war supplementals, they'e said they *won't*; they won't risk Bush leaving the troops in the field with nothing.

Yes there are a lot of partial truths and misleading words, and it comes from the far left as often as it comes from anywhere else.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. The simple truth is that our Democratic Leaders are NOT serving their constituents ...
they choose to serve their own personal political ambitions by allowing the Military Industrial Complex to send our troops to go fight and die in the middle of a bloodbath civil war while the War Profiteers steal Hundreds of BILLIONS more of our hard earned tax dollars. :grr: :nuke:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. The war will continue. The occupation, the invasion...
will continue.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. And it will take 67 to stop it n/t
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Not if the Military breaks and there's not regular "cannon fodder" enlistments.
That's our only hope, that there are honorable Field Grade and General Officers who will tell The Unitary Executive - There's not enough fresh troops to sustain this illegal/immoral occupation in the middle of a bloody national civil war. :shrug:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
16. K & R. n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Third Way policy is what they are following apparently.
It is connected to the DLC/PPI group.

From the OP

http://www.third-way.com/data/product/file/69/TW_-_Pressing_on_Iraq_Memo.pdf

"Third Way supports the idea for a nonbinding congressional resolution condemning the escalation. But going further, with legislation barring the troop increase, would be a mistake, for both substantive and political reasons. First, we do not believe that Congress should use the imprecise mechanism of appropriations to dictate the management of an ongoing military conflict. There is simply no way of ensuring that funding restrictions would not compromise the safety of the troops already in the field, and it is generally a bad idea for Congress to be dictating the details of military strategy."

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. The third way.
I believe that the internal war for the identity of the Democratic Party itself is currently the most crucial issue on the table. Much more crucial than electing Democrats to office.

If the third way wins, it won't matter how many Democrats are in office, because the party won't stand for those principles that make it the DEMOCRATIC party, no matter what label it wears.

Either the Democratic Party is the party of the people, is the party of labor, of women, of social and economic justice, or it is the new conservative party, giving conservative rats fleeing their own troubled ship a refuge.

Howard Dean has, in my opinion, the most difficult job on the table today; saving the life of the DEMOCRATIC party while there is anything left to save.

If the "third way"/DLC hadn't already gained way too much ground, we would have seen actual opposition to the Bush agenda in Congress from the moment of the selection. We wouldn't have to go after our own on the issues of war, of civil liberties, of the constitution, of impeachment.

If the "third way" "wins" this battle, those of us who still stand for peace, for the constitution, for civil liberties, for social and economic justice, and who see the writing on the wall, will be leaving the party in droves.

I don't always agree with you on every event or issue, madfloridian, but I greatly appreciate your presence, your voice, and your support for the work that must be done if the party is to survive with principles intact.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Perhaps folks are just using logic and reviewing our past history? I understand the passion and
Edited on Sat Sep-15-07 01:42 PM by papau
the wish to pass something - but for the first time in years I find myself disagreeing with you.

But our history shows that Defunding never stopped any war!

The Paris Peace Accords on 'Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam' were signed on 27 January, 1973, officially ending direct U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War - the combat troops were out within 60 days of January, 1973. But there were still American military forces in Vietnam after 1973 (about 10,000 non combat)

Dec 1974, A Bill called the Foreign Assistance ACT cut off all military funding to the South Vietnamese government. The act fixed the numbers of U.S. military personnel allowed in Vietnam: 4000 within six months of enactment and 3000 within one year.

The act in 1974 defunded the what was now only air support and equipment for South Vietnam to continue fighting.

The point is that it has never been done in the past for the good reason that you can't defund and tell folks you are supporting the troops.

Given the President's war-time (?- as if this was "war" rather than helping oil friends and Dad make a buck) powers to move money around defunding does not stop the war, making impeachment the ONLY solution. Anything else just gives the GOP a club to beat us over the head with while not moving us an inch closer to ending the war.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. This is not about my passion.
This is about being totally honest about all of it.

Things are falling apart over there. I am one of the fortunate with no family members there, but my heart aches for ones dying daily.

Sometimes you have to take a political risk in order to win.

This is not about me. It is about the fact that the Democrats control what gets on the floor.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. They should at least hold it for the next years budget - but like the Moveon ad, I am not
sure what the final political result of holding the sup off the floor would be - whether a positive or a negative to getting us out of Iraq.

I suspect that it would be neither and that impeachment is the only way - but I am having as much luck selling that idea as those selling stop the military funding bills are having.
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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
18. Hey, they passed Minimum Wage
legislation. Stop bashing them.
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SirBlackAdder Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-14-07 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Chernoff
Uhm, maybe thats why Chernoff said he has a 'strange feeling' 6 weeks ago, like he knew something was up. Lol, they are good, keeps the dems in line. All Democrats are terrified of another 9/11 or worse. They need to come up with policies that are reasonable and middle ground, a rock solid ID card, for all foreigners coming into the country, and a wall or a real border patrol, and push reforms in Latin America... Basically beat or outmanuver the GOP on its own issue, instead of getting janked by the most unbelievable load of crooks and jankers yet to visit the white house. (Big Business wants endless cheap(for business) slave labor, why do some democrats keep wanting to grant that wish? )

Take the INITIATIVE, the Dems will (AUUUUUUUUGGGGHHHHHH) HAVE to play the middle ground like Repulicat Clinton, there is NO other way.) Dealing with illegal immigration from other countries could be a win win, as you would get the redneck vote, those who make less than $40 G a year, and your dealing with NON VOTERS, and your back is way more protected in case of another attack. Strategy

Or course, if your money people dont like your policies, then you loose $$$$$$$, that is why nothing gets done.

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2rth2pwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. ??? nt
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riona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
21. Note to our reps - we aren't as uninformed as we used to be
Thanks to the Internet

http://clerk.house.gov/legislative/legvotes.html
U.S. Senate: Legislation & Records Home

The Center For Public Integrity
MAPLight.org | Money and Politics: Illuminating the Connection
Opensecrets.org--Money in politics data

http://mediamatters.org/
TPMmuckraker
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
http://www.truthout.org/
Crooks and Liars
Fairness & Accuracy In Reporting
http://factcheck.org/


2008 Presidential Election Candidates on the Issues
Presidential Profiles, 2008
PolitiFact | A service of the St. Petersburg Times and CQ
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lojasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
22. We will need 17 republicans to defund the war.
Democrats can NOT stop the occupation without the cooperation of 17 republicans to vote for cloture.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. While I have mixed feelings....I think being honest is best.
I understand they don't want to stop the money flow for political reasons, but if you are right then Feingold is wrong.

"Feingold, who chairs the Subcommittee on the Constitution, will question several witnesses, including a Library of Congress official and legal experts from Harvard, Duke, and the University of Virginia, on the issue. Senior Bush administration officials have publicly argued that Congress has no such right, but Feingold plans to introduce legislation to force President Bush to pull American forces out of the troubled country.

"Congress holds the power of the purse and if the president continues to advance his failed Iraq policy, we have the responsibility to use that power to safely redeploy our troops from Iraq," Feingold said in a statement released by his office on Thursday. "I will soon be introducing legislation to use the power of the purse to end what is clearly one of the greatest mistakes in the history of the nation's foreign policy."
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0107/2478.html


And Kucinich has much on this issue. They can stop by just not voting to fund it.

While I have mixed feelings, I believe they should be honest. They control congress officially, so they should be able to control at least what gets on the floor. Am I wrong?

If I am wrong and Feingold and Kucinich are wrong, please explain it to me clearly.
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catlbob Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I'd like an explanation , too
I think Nancy Pelosi can stop the war funding by herself. Nothing gets to the house floor unless the Speaker wants it there, appropriations bill originate in the House. If Pelosi disallows any Iraq bill to get to the floor that doesn't have troop cuts and a timeline, nothing gets passed.

No 60 vote, no 67 vote, just one principled person.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. It's worse than that - defunding does not work and has never been passed because of that
I suspect the reason that there is no defunding Bill - despite DK and Feingold, is that most folks are just using logic and reviewing our past history? I understand the passion and the wish to pass something - but for the first time in years I find myself disagreeing with the OP's line of thought.

Our history shows that Defunding never stopped any war!

The Paris Peace Accords on 'Ending the War and Restoring Peace in Vietnam' were signed on 27 January, 1973, officially ending direct U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War - the combat troops were out within 60 days of January, 1973. But there were still American military forces in Vietnam after 1973 (about 10,000 non combat)

Dec 1974, A Bill called the Foreign Assistance ACT cut off all military funding to the South Vietnamese government. The act fixed the numbers of U.S. military personnel allowed in Vietnam: 4000 within six months of enactment and 3000 within one year.

The act in 1974 defunded the what was now only air support and equipment for South Vietnam to continue fighting.

The point is that it has never been done in the past for the good reason that you can't defund and tell folks you are supporting the troops.

Given the President's war-time(?) power (as if this was "war" rather than helping oil friends and Dad make a buck) powers to move money around, the war goes on after a defunding Bill making impeachment the ONLY solution,. Anything else just gives the GOP a club to beat us over the head with while not moving us an inch closer to ending the war.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Logic?
Or politics?

Can't the Democrats just refuse to put the bills on the floor?

Logic...just letting more and more military and Iraqis die daily?

That is not logical nor is it humane.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. not putting the bills on the flloor just gives GOP the "anti-troops" club - actual spending once
the monies are appropriated for anything and given the executive are not affected - the President, per our right wing Courts, has emergency war powers during war time and that includes moving money around - that is the magic of 9/11.

Even if the president does not have that power per our courts we'd not know that opinion until after Bush is gone - and if for some reason we got an instant USSC review and agreement with us - he could still spend on the War, ignoring the Court.

Impeachment is a majority only House vote that gets attention - in my opinion it is the only productive way.

DK & Feingold assume that the "rule of law" means something to Bush - I do not think it does. The GOP are not playing by the "rules" and needed to get a real world lesson.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Then we stay.
Because it is obvious they will not use their powers of impeachment either. They already took one investigation off the books this week, Rahm and Nancy that is...much to Conyer's grief.

We are doing the same things over and over, and nothing is changing.

They are not going to do anything.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Sigh - I hope we do do something - but I suspect you are right - I can't get
impeachment off of the "backburner" - not that I have a lot or any real influence on anything - but I was hoping my great logic would sell the idea.

:-(
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catlbob Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Capitulation is what doesn't work
Neither the Vietnam nor Nicaragua examples compare to spending $10 billion a month on failure. In both those earlier cases, though, we were out is a few years. In light of the president's announced 10 year quagmire, a couple of years an out sounds pretty good.

But first, a foot has to come down. No has to be said again, and again. Not maybe, not pretty please, not show us success, but NO!

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. I agree - at this point if impeachment can't be voted on, the promise of NO must be made by each of
the candidates - and I think that promise has been made.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
32. Thank you for your devotion to spreading the word about this issue.
Otherwise we woul donly have the MSM usual blather,in which Mr Bill Nelson is given all the credibility.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. It is amazing how they did this.
Sounds like Florida may be realizing they need to work out something else now. Bill Nelson may not be in on the compromise at all.

What's strange is that I was reading an interview with Matt Bai about his new book, and I ran across this video of an interview he did with Dean a while ago. It was an hour long interview at least, but this video is some of the better excerpts.

My first thought when I saw this again was that Bill Nelson's actions recently to hurt this strategy are totally inexcusable. I doubt I will ever be able to forgive him for the ugliness he has caused here in Florida .

Video of Bai and Dean...about 5 minutes.
http://www.mattbai.com/node/42
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Thanks Madfl I will try and watch it tonight.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-17-07 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
39. Just heard they may delay funding for a few weeks.
Amazing. Hope it is true.
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