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Taylor Marsh: "Giving the Finger to Michigan is just nuts..."

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009)

SaveElmer

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Wed Oct-10-07 11:27 AM
Original message

Taylor Marsh: "Giving the Finger to Michigan is just nuts..."

Obama, Edwards and Richardson have decided that Iowa is all, so they've pulled out of the Democratic primary in Michigan. This is horrific politics, especially if you're looking long-term and towards the general election. You know, thinking about something beyond your own presidential possibilities. Dodd and Clinton are in.

Giving the finger to Michigan is just nuts. Sucking up to Iowa and ignoring Michigan's importance in the general election is also plain stupid.

...

Dodd continues to get it. If he was better known he'd be getting a lot more traction in the primaries. That's his biggest challenge, which is a tall hill to surmount. Because if people looked at him on the issues they'd be impressed. Give his bankruptcy bill reform legislation a look. Also see Senator Dodd's guest post here on habeas corpus. Then there's his position on Iraq, which is much better than the top three candidates, as well as Richardson's.

As for Clinton, she's thinking long-term and looking towards the general election and what could happen to Democrats if we stiff arm Michigan. If we're facing Romney, that's a real issue, because Michigan is home turf for Slick Mitt. Edwards and Obama should be thinking the same way. However, because they're tied to the outcome in Iowa they're obviously scared to leave; that applies doubly to Edwards. But it's pathetic.

http://www.taylormarsh.com/archives_view.php?id=26365

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Cameron27

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Wed Oct-10-07 11:31 AM
Response to Original message

1. Taylor Marsh is always a good read,

and she makes an excellent point about Michigan.

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pioneer111

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #1

9. Taylor makes a terrible point about Michigan

I really am surprised at her. Michigan is thumbing its nose at the other 48 states
(not counting Florida which is doing the same thing) who agreed to the rules for the primaries.

Clinton is the one who is disregarding the DNC and the rules.
I didn't know we were to elect another president who doesn't follow rules that others are following.

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Cameron27

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #9

11. Apparently Clinton isn't violating the 'pledge'

any more than Obama is in FL.

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Romulox

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Wed Oct-10-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message

2. It feels a lot like being kicked while we're down

Edwards and Obama supporters think we will just magically forget this slight, and that Michigan is a shoe-in for the Democrats at any rate.

I may donate a few 20th century history books to the Obama and Edwards' camps in lieu of a money donation. They seem to have forgotten how many times Michigan has cast its EC votes for a Republican in the last 50 years. :eyes:

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Tyler Durden

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Wed Oct-10-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #2

4. GOD FORBID we go rePuke...but now, I WILL write in GORE.

FUCK the rest of them, and I don't grok Hil with her "INSURANCE BASED HEALTHCARE" and "UNIVERSAL 401K", both WONDERFUL CONCEPTS that have their roots in everything that has gone wrong for the Middle Class in the last 20 years.

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BruceMcF

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Wed Oct-10-07 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #2

21. What slight? It was the Michigan state party ...

... that decided it wanted to break the calendar because Hillary supporters in the establishment of the party thought she would do better in a primary rather than the traditional caucus.

If Michigan *just* wanted to be an "early" state, it only needed to set a post-NH, pre-Feb5 date for a caucus, and it would have gotten "early state" status without any big fuss. Instead, it went with undermining the calendar that was agreed on.

And before saying, "but the calendar sucks" ... of course it sucks. It was only possibly to get agreement on a sucky calendar that was slightly less sucky than the preceding system. The only way we are going to get this system fixed is to elect a Democrat to the White House, and then fix it early in his or her first term, so that there are not a lot of people with their own vested interest in one or another potential candidate fighting over the calendar.

Even though many states would prefer to be an "early state" and push other states aside to influence the nomination, the national calendar was agreed to. Just because the Michigan state party does not want to play by the rules does not mean that it should be coddled.

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Romulox

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Wed Oct-10-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #21

25. There was no rule requiring the candidates to withdraw. That was the *extra* kick in the ribs.

And passive language is deployed by those who wish to conceal agency: e.g. "the national calendar was agreed to". Was agreed to by whom? Not the voters of Michigan.

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Tyler Durden

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Wed Oct-10-07 11:53 AM
Response to Original message

3. Hey, we've gotten used to the rest of the nation pissing on us.

Faithful, ol' "TRUE BLUE" Michigan.

Our opinion means SHIT compared to NH, with about the population of LANSING.

And IOWA??? GOD FUCKING FORBID the "THE CORN BELT" not get to occupy the limelight.

You know what? PISS on BOTH PARTIES and their stupid God Damned RULE. You want a RULE? Here's a couple for you:

1) Make it ILLEGAL to campaign for the primaries BEFORE January 1st of the election year.
2) LIMIT the damned funds usable for the primaries. MONEY DOES NOT EQUAL FREE SPEECH.

I get so fucking TIRED of hearing about the whole damned selection process practically being OVER before they get to Michigan.

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zalinda

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #3

7. And what about the rest of the states after you

or do you just want to "piss" on them first? Now is not the time to try to arrange timetables. It should have taken place right after the 2004 election. With what Michigan and Florida are doing, it is making candidates spend money that they don't really have to spend, and to try to rear rage a timetable and plans that have been pretty much set in stone for a year.

I'm from Michigan and I now live in New York, I don't have a choice. In New York, it will be Clinton. Big f*g deal......whine, whine, whine, I want to be first in line.

zalinda

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Tyler Durden

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #7

14. I don't think ANYONE should be "First in Line"

How about "SUPER DUPER TUESDAY" where everyone does a primary on the same day?

That's fair.

And by the way, we've been trying to get the DNC to change these rules for YEARS now. Seems no one wants to piss off li'l ol' NH or Iowa.

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zalinda

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Wed Oct-10-07 11:58 AM
Response to Original message

5. Would the people in Michigan feel the same way

if either Obama or Edwards crossed a picket line? To go against the DNC's rules is like crossing a picket line. Like it or not, DNC ruled that Michigan shouldn't move their primary up. So, some blowhards from Michigan and Florida decide they are going to buck the DNC on this decision. Should the DNC then decide to withhold monies to dems running in those states?

As far as Clinton goes, she has the money to blow on Michigan, whether she wins or not, she doesn't care. Edwards and to some extent Obama don't have money to blow, so they are sticking to their plan, and hoping that the DNC backs them up.

I am not with Michigan or Florida on this one. It would not have occurred to the majority to move up the primaries, except for a few people pushing it. Could they want Clinton to win, after all she has the most money to spend.

zalinda

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madfloridian

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #5

8. Nice post. The states and candidates knew the new rules.

They all knew it was a new part of the rules, that candidates would pay a penalty. The commmission was set up by McAuliffe in a deal with Carl Levin. They made the rules, MI and FL broke them.

http://dnc.org/a/2006/08/highlights_of_t.php

"Presidential Candidate Sanctions on the Window
There is a new rule that imposes new sanctions on presidential candidates. If a state, any state, violates the rule on timing/the window, presidential candidates will face sanctions if they campaign in that state. Examples of campaigning include: making personal appearances in the state, hiring campaign workers, and buying advertising and so on.

Currently, the only punishment for states that violate the window was on State Parties. This new enforcement provision recognizes that presidential candidates must also bear a responsibility in enforcing the window or face sanctions."

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benny05

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #8

12. I agree here

We have to support Howard Dean and his 50-strategy. FL and MI are not doing this.

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Tyler Durden

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #12

15. Tough.

We have a long memory in Michigan, and we used to have some "Republicans" that actually were for ALL OF US, like William Milliken.

We are getting pretty damned tired of being "The New Rust Belt." Some people in Ohio and Pennsylvania still remember that WE didn't run THEM down then they were hurting. The Heart of the Midwest has got clout we haven't used: Too bad WE couldn't secede. CANADA would LOVE to have us.

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Tyler Durden

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #8

16. Seeing as you want to talk about RULES,

New Hampshire spit in everyone's face FIRST.

http://www.michigandems.com/Levin-Dingell%20Letter.pdf

Where is THEIR fucking sanction? PISSED OFF? YOU BET.

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Tyler Durden

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #5

17. New Hampshire broke the "window" BEFORE Florida and Michigan.

http://www.michigandems.com/Levin-Dingell%20Letter.pdf

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yewberry

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Wed Oct-10-07 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #17

26. You're mistaken.

NH was accused of breaking the "window" but it hasn't changed its primary date. It was an accusation, not a reality.

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wyldwolf

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:02 PM
Response to Original message

6. Chris Bowers said this morning score another point for the Clinton campaign

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benny05

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #6

13. Bowers was for Edwards earlier in the season

One cannot trust his positions as he continues to triangulate.

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wyldwolf

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Wed Oct-10-07 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #13

18. In your world making a political observation is "triangulating."

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benny05

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Thu Oct-11-07 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #18

30. I'm inferring that he is no different from Clinton

because of the exchange of money. He even has Ann Coulter's blogads on his site.

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cobalt1999

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Wed Oct-10-07 12:25 PM
Response to Original message

10. Clinton doesn't need the early states as much as the others do.

The others are sacrificing the long-term in a gamble to survive the early states. Bad move for the General Election, but, except for Clinton, most aren't thinking that far out, they are only focused on survival.

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MontanaMaven

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Wed Oct-10-07 01:11 PM
Response to Original message

19. Sorry, I don't get these remarks. I've tried several times

to read her, but I can't follow her arguments. They are very general. Look, Dodd waited until all the rest dropped out and decided then to stay in becausehe'll get votes that he wouldn't have with Edwards and Obama in. He then gets a boost for his campaign.

Governor Grenholm will endorse Hillary next week. So Hillary stays on the ballot. By the way, Grenholm is very unpopular right now.

I'm not sure Marsh has been involved with local politics and working within the Democratic Party. I have. It's very frustrating at a local level, but Howard Dean is changing it and giving more power to county central committees and less power to the state committees that are often very susceptible to arm twisting by Washington insiders. Most who make it to the State Party level are very enamored of what they see as power and what it can do for them..not us.

So Taylor, it's the State Party of Michigan that has little to do with Michigan Democratic voters who has given the finger to Howard Dean.

Oh and don't let the Montana part fool you. My family lives in Michigan and I went to college and grad school there.

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Tyler Durden

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Wed Oct-10-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #19

20. Michigan isn't giving the finger...the DNC is giving it to MICHIGAN.

And what's good for Michigan, SHOULD be good for New Hampshire:

http://www.michigandems.com/Levin-Dingell%20Letter.pdf

A lot of "rules" have been broken. We weren't FIRST. New Hampshire was: they wanted not just to be #1 in line, they wanted everyone else a month behind them. BULLSHIT.

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madfloridian

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Wed Oct-10-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #20

22. Your letter....this part.

"Michigan Democrats are determined to fight to maintain that
victory. We object to your continued silence in the face of New
Hampshire�s stated intent to violate the DNC rules. As Chairman of the
Democratic Party, you had the obligation to state your intent to apply the rule to New Hampshire Democrats when its Secretary of State announced his intention to move the New Hampshire primary prior to January 19. Selective enforcement of our rules undermines the progress achieved -- to open the process potentially for all states."

The DNC is not dealing with intent, NH has not yet moved.

Michigan moved ahead of them to January 15 and then blamed NH.

Let's get real.

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Tyler Durden

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Wed Oct-10-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #22

23. So WE break THEIR window...WE go to jail. THEY break ours and they are in the RIGHT?

Fuck that.

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zalinda

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Wed Oct-10-07 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #23

24. Really, I don't understand why you are so enraged.

It was taken out of your hands, just like my vote was taken out of my hands. To be this enraged this far out from the election will give you a heart attack by the time the election arrives. Calm down, your state party chairs made this decision, if they hadn't kicked up this dirt, would you be this angry? I doubt it.

We are where we are, getting so angry doesn't help the movement. Work to change it, but calmly. Step back, take a breath. Have a drink, chill. It will get better.

zalinda

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Tyler Durden

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Thu Oct-11-07 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #24

27. I've been an activist for almost 40 years. Just getting tired of being minimalized.

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zalinda

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Thu Oct-11-07 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #27

28. Honey, if you haven't figured out that that is the role

of an activist, you haven't been paying attention. Activists are ALWAYS taken for granted. Think of them as tug boats. Tug boats don't seem to be very important, but they are needed to pull the big ships in the directions that they should be going. No one says "thank goodness for the tug boats", they always say "thank goodness for the captain". It's just something that you get used to, or you'll blow up in anger.

zalinda

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Tyler Durden

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Thu Oct-11-07 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #28

29. Refering to the minimalization of the group I'm in a the moment: MICHIGAN

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