Dean doesn't get it--- democratic party wants attacks on Dean to WORK

Dean is WHINING because the democratic party doesn't think he can win and won't protect him from attacks because they want the attacks to WORK and keep him from getting nominated. So do I, America can't take another four years of *.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20031229/ap_on_el_pr/dean&e=3&ncid=2043

He (Dean) added: "If we had strong leadership in the Democratic Party, it would be calling the other candidates and saying somebody has to win here. If (former Democratic National Committee (news - web sites) head) Ron Brown were chairman, this wouldn't be happening."

Democratic National Committee spokeswoman Debra DeShong rejected Dean's arguments saying nothing unusual is happening.

"All of the Democratic presidential candidates including Governor Dean have been vigorous about drawing distinctions among themselves," she said. "Democratic primaries over the last 20 years have been just as tough and just as vigorous."

and is trying to tell the public who is the best candidate. Judging by the polls, apparently the public agrees with Dean.

i don't see how you come to the public agrees with dean. even the highest rating shows him at less than a third support.

Dean's trendline is definitely in the wrong direction. His campaign is now whining to McAuliffe and the DNC seeking protection from his big, bad "Democratic" opponents--you know, "those guys" with the audacity to run against Dr. Dean.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04dem.htm

Howard Dean

12/21-22 16%
12/14-16 23%
11/10-13 14%

Don't know

12/21-22 24%
12/14-16 28%
11/10-13 23%

Significantly, almost a quarter of the Democrats remain undecided. The race for our party's standard bearer remains flexible.

Dropping from 7 in November. What's your point? That Moseley Braun is cathing fire, going up from 1% to 6 %?

dean led by 32 points in Dec 3rd ARG poll, now down to 18 points.

"The DNC...is trying to tell the public who is the best candidate."

They are doing this how? By not telling all the other candidates to pack their bags & go home? By not reprimanding anyone who dares to run against the Doctor? By pointing out that the primaries are a rough & tumble contest and that the candidates need to accept that? :shrug:

This attitude that Dean should be handled with kid gloves is getting old fast.

If he want's to be POTUS let him fight for it like everyone else and stop running to the very organization that he's been villifying the past few months begging for special treatment.

:think:

If the Democratic party does not get their head out of the sand, we are doomed forever.

They say nothing, they stand for nothing right now. That is shameful. They voted for this Iraq mess, and now Clark supporters are trying to keep us scared enough to vote for a military man.

We made our decision today that the negativity of his supporters affected our view of him. We can not support him. We are tired of the attacks here, tired of the militarism, tired of the sudden onslaught here of people trying to keep us in a war mode.

It ain't working.

Dean fans want to do something else like reform the party or stick it to DNC or whatever.

They won't get a chance because Dean will lose.

Sorry, but the influx here to attack us and force us into constant defense mode was absolutely just too much.

they know it will be a lost cause if it is Dean

.

we need to look elsewhere....bushco awaits.

are pushing us here toward ABC, ABK, etc.

If Clark or Kerry get the Nom, I will hold my nose and vote, but no longer will I work toward helping them. I just can't do it. Their Supporters are to blame, period. My money stays in my wallet. No signs in the lawn. Screw 'em.

Maybe I'll come to my senses come election time, but I'm not so sure anymore. The constant organized barrage of vitriol and poison coming from the Kerry and Clark camps is just disgusting.

I become ABB when I stay the heck away from DU. 5 minutes here and I send money to Dean and say screww the others. 'Tis a sad place, DU.

_|_

would show that Clark supporters do no more than half, maybe less than that. Most of my time is spent defending Clark, I do very little bashing. I do think my opinion is as important as anyone elses, and occasionally I do comment on Dean's campaign.

This morning I was depressed with all the Clark bashing here. Then one of Dean's supporters basically said that my vote was a vote for more Wall Street Enron scandals because I'm a middle class voter. I thought that was the low point that I have seen so far. Maybe he wants me to vote for Bush?

So get off the high horse and accept that the Clark campaign and the others have validity as long as there is significant support from the voting public. And we want to see some actual votes cast before we annoint anyone.

That is because we did not come here in droves. Most of us were here already.

That because Dean supporters were here first, it is okay to bash Clark? Cuz I see posts bashing Clark and Dean just about evenly. I've seen many pro-Clark posts turn negative because of posters.

Clark declared his candidacy in September, so many of his supporters have only come to be supporters since then, which explains why they weren't here before.

Do you want DU to be a place for only Dean supporters? Are you saying only Dean supporters have a right to post? What are you saying?

We are tired of it. Do a search. I saw one earlier with about 17 or 18 attacks on Dean in less than 2 pages.

Do a search.

Stop the spin.

People have been saying that for months with no justification. Now I am going to start calling them on it. We have done searches for you guys, danced to your tune for months.

Now you do the searches and find out who is doing it.
I can provide a lot of links back to the Clark site and to Clark's army, but I would rather not do that.

On Edit:
I resent this statement:
"Do you want DU to be a place for only Dean supporters? Are you saying only Dean supporters have a right to post? What are you saying?"

It is silly and it does not address the point. You had us going in circles trying to help you on some thread this afternoon, but we could not satisfy you.

you are covering your eyes subconciously or something, I guess someone needs to tally 'em for the last week to show that is not the case.

What does it matter when you came here. I am a democrat, I became interested in internet politics in September, I found DU, does that make me different or make my posts less important?

I hate the negative bashing crap just as much as you. I don't believe I am a big basher although it is possible I have been out line occasionally. Whenever people state opinions, they can be interpreted as offensive by somebody. The challenge is to respond without raising the level of tension. It is hard sometimes.

If we do the tally and post it, we will be deleted. A lot has gone on in 24 hours,and we are tired out.

You do the tally. We will check it for you.

I've been here long enough to have seem the descent of the Dean People onto this forum.

And by the way, pointing out the numerous inconsistencies in Dean's record/rhetoric/policy papers and all his misdded and verbal gaffes are NOT ATTACKS!

17 Dean bashing threads in first 3 pages of GDP2004


1. this one

2.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=22365

"I think we need to face facts"

3.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=33881

"if bush beats( generic) dem by 9%, yet bush beats dean by 20%"

4.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=33793

"DEAN suffers batting slump????"

5.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=33873

""Assessing Mr. Dean" editorial from today's Washington Post..."

6. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=34703

"Dean Hits Cheney Task Force, But Had Own" John Solomon, AP writer"

7.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=33728

"Where were they right after 9.11? HD vs Clark:"

8.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=30174

"Dean On The Way Down"

9.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=34448

Dean- the Democratic Bush (this is a gem!)

10.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=32628

"Dr. Dean's Giant Donut Hole"

11.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=16930

"The Dean Deception (part 2)"

12. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=30073

Does Howard Dean still think Americans are not safer after the..."

13. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=32899

"Happy Hanukah from Dean"

14.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=33031

"Kerry Says Dean Has No Chance Vs. Bush"

15.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=32651

"Howard Dean: Hard Work and Frugal Living?"

16.http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=28605

"CSPAN- Dean may suffer from being pessimistic and angry in the GE."

17. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=32437

"CNN Capital Gang: Dean Nomination And Bush Landslide 3/5"

How many clark bashing threads can you get me?

When the first page was all Clark bashing?

I think the reponse today by Clark supporters who like to start bashing threads is a direct response to what went on Friday, Saturday, and early Sunday.

Like I said in another post here, somebody can search 1 or more weeks of post to validate my point if they really want to.

Then find the Dean bashings and post them. We will verify, but we will get banned if we post back threads I fear.

I am truly sorry I missed that. GD2004 is not my favorite destination, but I would have made a special trip for that one.

There is a lot of media turning against Dean right now...so there is more to comment on...we are not just talking Gore endorsement, Union endorsement, fundraising greatness....the press is now turning on "THE DEAN"...sorry.....welcome to the club. Clark supporters have been hit over the head and then ignored by media till the very day.

No, it's called "vetting" a candidate before we vote.

I am an active Clark supporter. I'm a peace-loving, democrat through and through. I have no ounce of militarism in me, and neither do the other Clark supporters I know. We believe in this man for his Outstanding Experience (in Foreign Policy, Business, and Not-for-Profit Organizations)! His Intelligence (Rhodes Scholar, Nuclear Engineer)! His Humbling Patriotism (30 years of armed service, numerous medals)! When I hear this man speak those are the qualities I admire. Please don't dismiss someone who dedicated 30 years of his life to protecting America and took 4 battle wounds for his country as a threat to America, he's the kind of person I want making decisions for my county.
You say you're tired of "people trying to keep us in a war mode"? Wes Clark wants to get us out of Iraq and done with this war as soon as possible! And his military experience makes him the most qualified to do it in the most efficient and permanent manner.
I'm sorry if you've run into negativity in this campaign. Dirty politics should be left to the Republicans. But I know that the Clark campaign I volunteer with focuses on Clark's credentials and policies, not on negativity.
P.S. I'm 17, I'm not a DNC employee, and I am very much thinking about how the DNC will evolve in my future, that's why I want Clark as its leader.

http://www.kosovo.com/default2.html ** warning - graphic images of human suffering **

Is this how Wes is planning to win the 'war on terror'? Not too 'efficient', eh?

Maybe 'militarism' is the wrong word for 'terrorizing'.

doesn't surprise me. So lets blame Clark for all the wars we have ever been in now. He's surely responsible for this countries politics in Kosovo. And lets ignore the million or more Kosovos that think he is their savior while we are at it.

Yes, you have. It has been non-stop like it is rotated.

tell me where that post in any way attacked Dean?

I think showing pictures of killed people in Kosovo when Clark was doing what this country told him to do is low down dirty tactic.

We have scurried to please you guys for months now, looking up facts and polls and then having it said it was not sufficient.

No more.

check the dates. This isn't history, it's happening. But Wes Clark for pres would have people believe he WON that war, even though two of the biggest criminals he went after are still on the loose TOO!!

Don't you think if Clark were the nominee (fractional chance, thank the gods), that 'someone' would point out his failures?

I think you are not making a case for Clark's failure that is what I think.

Seems that the consensus is he did a remarkable job. Every death in former Yugoslavia is not his fault.

is not my responsibility. I just refuse to stand by with tacit agreement that he is some kind of military wonder worker, when clearly he is not. He is an opportunist who would not even be running for his first elected office if not for the war his pals got us into.

I think you are not making a case for Clark's failure that is what I think.

that he cannot attack everyone with impunity - and threatening to take the ball and go home. Now, which other political figure behaves like this? helo? Unka Toni?

was of that nature. Roam around the site a little.Stop in at the Lounge or the Meeting Room and check out some of the political cartoons.

:hi:

his is not the candidacy that can beat bush.

we are soooo screwed..........

And just who is this "WE" you keep referring to? Have you got a "mouse" in your pocket?

I see no one else making this claim except the few dean supporters on this board.

Here's an idea....you don't want to vote for Clark, don't vote for Clark and help give bush his second term.

The whining didn't work with the DNC and it won't work here. My advise is if you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!

ON EDIT: replaced my original slang to run!


Food for thought from….“JAFO”

Really?? And what exactly have McAulliffe, Daschle, Lieberman, Gephardt, Biden, Kerry, and the rest of those ass kissers "won" since the theft of the White House?

None of the above have a right to pick, let alone BE the next President of the United States :grr:

eom

:silly:

NT :eyes:

eom

They did not fight for Gore. If they had, the right man would be in the WH.

One of his own party members in Florida took a vacation during the recount, Penelas.

They did not give him the support. He was left without support.

That is what they do if you don't toe the line.

Repukes on the supreme court were going to steal it no matter what any DNC did

.

by wanting to be "his own man" and turned away all help that was offered. gores loss was bush's gain!


Food for thought from….“JAFO”

Do not mistake Bill Clinton's personal charisma for some mandate for consevative policies. Under the guidance of the DLC, the Democratic Party has lost both houses of Congress and, now, the White House. It was progressivism that built up massive Democratic Congressional majorities, and the DLC has set us back 100 years to the days of McKinley with their conservatism.

Lets get this clear, while we might not have had the White House for a few elections in the 80's, progressives NEVER lost control of Congress like this.

The DLC is the reason the Democratic Party is COMPLETELY out of power.

The DLC is a thinktank. They can't create candidates from f'in thin air! Dean was one of them before he found out there were so many people that don't understand how the game works that he could play to. Dean is running a fraud of a campaign. Sooner or later the truth will be apparent, the realities of politics will make it clear that he must play the game just like everyone else. That means more dissillusioned supporters at some point.

The DLC main purpose is to analyze the voting public and recommend strategies. The same strategies Dean will be happy to use in the GE. So stop immagining that Dean is some kind of miracle worker. He is a very good speaker/politician/motivator. But the realities of politics will place limits on him just like everyone else.

If you want to sell your soul, you are free. It's a free country. However, there's a bunch of us that refuse to surrender their ideals and continue work for real change in this world.

I'm not willing to settle for Hell being a little less hot like you are. People like me and many of the Dean supporters know we can make REAL change. Wash the demons out of this hellhole and start planning to re-plant Eden.

and I think Dean will lose so I support someone with a better chance.

If I want to beat * and you don't that makes you the real soul seller.

because he's a Democrat, is that it? :eyes:

Clark has a lot of ties to this PNAC group. By his own admission they are his friends and he admires them. Dean admires some of them, but Clark is tied to them through corporations on whose boards he sat.

Shame on you.

If your candidate can not get the support of Democrats how will he win the election?
Number of Donors

#1 Bush - This Quarter - 50,544 - #1 Last Quarter - 19,428

#2 Dean - This Quarter - 24,162 - #3 Last Quarter - 9,728

#3 Kerry - This Quarter - 13,442 - #2 Last Quarter - 10.001

#4 Edwards - 10,915 - #4 - 8,995

#5 Lieberman - 10,220 - #5 - 6,771

#6 Gephardt - 9,166 - #6 - 5,695

#7 Clark - 3,041 - N/A

#8 Kucinich - 2,619 - #7 - 1,322

The spin is from Al From. You're buying it. That's your problem.

The spin IS from Al From and the big boys who play too nice with Bush. They are afraid to offend him or his cohorts while they stomp all over us.

The positions of the American people on issues are progressive, not conservative. We will win and create change.

We have a better chance of winning if we do turn left.

they're doing a very, very crappy job--otherwise they would at the very least be open to the possibility of a Dean candidacy.

That means it is probably a little unpredictable. I can't speak for the DLC, I'm a plastics guy, that is what I do. But I am amazed that so many people here at DU blame an organization with limited "power". They have the power to help certain candidates because of their connections and experience. I do not see where they are responsible for every f'in problem in the democratic party.

There was a change in America in the 80's as far as the opinion of the average american on welfare and other social programs. Many democrats have been shot down because Americans perceive that those programs were an endless growing cycle and they weren't actually making headway on the problem.

One of Clinton's main campaign planks was welfare reform. Its a big reason he was elected in '92. Now you can run a campaign like this all didn't happen but it is still a fact!

Gore benefited from the Clinton economic successes. And he still lost! Now we will be against an incumbent during a "War" and it is going to be very tough for any candidate. I give us a 25% chance next year unless the economy takes another downturn, or the terrorists commit another attrocity, then America will be looking for an alternative.

That is what I mean. The only way to beat the occupant of the white house is to call him out.

Have you happened to notice that Dean has made "suggestions" to him all along during campaign. Bush is sneakily using some of them, and Dean is chuckling up his sleeve.

Bush does a few things right because Dean pointed them out, and we all benefit.

Just don't do the military, look what we are up against deal. Ok?

America used to be have a place for both merchants and the dreamers. The people who were concerned more about basic needs and security for themselves could work hard from 9 to 5 and create a safe place for themselves and their families. The dreamers were free to change, and invent, and risk, and create. They worked ridiculous hours on their dreams. Some failed. Many succeeded. Society advanced.

What are dreamers supposed to do now. They can't open a storefront because WalMart will undercut their prices. They can't invent, because corporations either claim ownership of any concept from anyone that ever worked as an employee or subcontractor, or they file so many bogus idea patent claims that anyone filing real workable plans are instantly sued into pennies on the dollar patent rights buyouts. They can't create works of art as the corporate media hold the entertainment and publishing industries in such a vice that none but those chosen as worthy by Corporate America are allowed contracts.

There no place left for dreams in our society. Only a place for those who slog.

People understand the forces of industry will always attempt to own all of "it." However, the DLC cynically sold away the rights for people to create their own "it." The DLC sold out and sold away the dreams of a people.

:toast:

No doubt that corporations have too much pull in our government. This issue will continue to gain steam. I personally don't see the level of anti-corporation grassroots yet to make major changes.

Where you and I see different is who is to blame. The congressman will follow the wishes of their district voters if the voters make their voices heard. if the voters raise their voices in objection like the FCC thing we can override lobbyist. The reason we didn't totally beat the FCC changes is there is a republican congress and president right now, but we still had an effect on the outcome.

What I am trying to say is that it ain't the DLC. Its the voters of America, and corporations and money. But the voters have the most power on issues that get their attention. Right now most voters identify with the republicans. Its close but I believe they have a slight edge.

We have to be smarter than the republicans not angrier. Thats the way to win elections like the Big Dog in '92.

And the Medicare bill that shafted our seniors? They "trusted" the GOP to make up a good one.

And the Social Security they are about to dismantle without the Democrats raising a ruckus?

And the overtime bill? and I could go on.

Al From can get on TV whenever he wishes, and he could speak up for these issues. He does not, he bashes Dean.

The Clark supporters seem to have decided that we could be converted by sheer numbers and military strength. Did not work.

And the war, and the tax cuts? And NCLB? Yeh, there are a few issues that need addressing.

Dean is speaking up on all of these things, and he gets slapped down by his party everytime.

Do you remember when Dean said he felt we needed to re-regulate the media and the power companies? Do you remember the devastating attacks on him them at this very board by Democrats. I remember, and I won't forget.

I am sure if you spend any time listening to the other candidates you will also hear them saying the same things (well maybe not lieberman :) )

I was making a point that the whole country did not support the FCC thing.

Politics sucks some time, I am very very very pissed off at what has happened the last 3 years and I will support Dean if he gets the nomination.

Anyways, its getting late you know, I think I am going to have one more drink and a smoke, and call it a night. We will talk again I hope.


:hi:

I'm not a Dean supporter. I'll be supporting the nominee. I don't have a problem with Clark or Dean. I've gotten onto these "(Your Name Here) CANNOT WIN" threads the past few days because they only give ammo to the neo-cons in November. The only time I've gone anti-candidate is when they have turned to attack-dog tactics.

...well, actually, Kerry has been running a god-awful campaign and I'm having a hard time avoiding making cracks about that. ;)

We used to be ABB but the mindless attacks and our being forced into defense mode were just too much. Now we are almost ABB.

He seems to be wary of writing easy to splice in soundbytes for the neo-cons (well, other than the skiing thing). Dean attacks a lot, but he doesn't name those he attacks. Dean attacks issues or creates a "grouping" to make generic attacks on groups of candidates or the DC culture.

However, that Osama ad was the last straw. That REALLY pissed me off. It was running on every network news show within hours.

The whole thing is lousy.

I'm kinda doubt there's anyone on Clark's staff saying, "You guys go attack people all over the internet."

I think a few have just assumed the role for themselves to do so.

Do you think Clark actually supports or even pays any attention to what the online zealots do with respect to Dean.

He seems to forge ahead conducting a class, positive campaign regardless of 1) his poll standings, 2) the flame wars online, 3) pundits' predictions. He is focused on his message and then hammering Shrubco.

despite the DLC

In reality 1992 was a split vote and a rather unique situation. 1996 was a strong incumbent.

This is another pet peeve of mine around here. How the ()*^*%*&!?!?! do you expect them to win if people don't vote or vote for republicans. Where were all of Dean's armies when they were losing anyways?

I know I just kept defending and defending and all the while we pretended we did not know this was organized. No more. Sorry.

http://www.fundrace.org/calcNDonor.html

Number of Donors

#1 Bush - This Quarter - 50,544 - #1 Last Quarter - 19,428

#2 Dean - This Quarter - 24,162 - #3 Last Quarter - 9,728

#3 Kerry - This Quarter - 13,442 - #2 Last Quarter - 10.001

#4 Edwards - 10,915 - #4 - 8,995

#5 Lieberman - 10,220 - #5 - 6,771

#6 Gephardt - 9,166 - #6 - 5,695

#7 Clark - 3,041 - N/A

#8 Kucinich - 2,619 - #7 - 1,322

Your "this quarter" and "last quarter" are actually second (Apr-June) and third (Jul-Sept). Clark was in the race a grand total of what, 13 days for the 90 days of "this quarter" number?

Not quite apples to apples, if you're going to use this as an indication of "support" for candidates.

It is in a thread in GD2004.
It was used by them to bash Dean. Talk to them.

The fundraising numbers from http://www.fundrace.org/calcNDonor.html was used to bash Dean? How? Besides, I saw a post of yours upthread that used the numbers again, with the notation that "If your candidate can not get the support of Democrats how will he win the election?" so I felt obligated to point out that the numbers weren't an accurate representation of "support of Democrats"

I'm so confused!

The American People believe in progressive stands on issues. The Democratic Party refuses to offer candidates that will vote for protgressive positions on issues.

If you don't offer people the positions the polls clearly show people want, don't be surprised they don't come support you.

Yes, that is what a lot of them are doing. They are telling us what we want, and they are not listening at all.

We have lost the White House and both houses of Congress. We don't have any stinkin' votes.

People get desperate when their grip on power is threatened.

Dean nomination = 4 more for *

The DLC is not getting people to the polls. The DLC has lost the entire government from being so cynical.

Bye-Bye Weak DNC Leadership

:hi:

Dean was no where to be seen in 2002, but we still lost alot of seats in Congress. So, as I see it, blaming Dean for a possible lost of seats is crazy.

Dean supporters think they have already won. They haven't and they will be surprised at the end result. The primary system is all about finding the best candidate. Let's use the system and keep the man who would be the weakest Democratic candidate in 20 some years from being our one shot to remove Bush. We can do better than this. We must.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Of course not. Because he never made it.

Sleaze will not "win the White House."

But if you keep repeating it, people will think it's true.

A trick taught by the best propagandists.

"Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd."

"Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so."

"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."

"Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man."

"Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones."

You do not throw statements out to us like that now. We are truly skilled now in knowing what Dean said.

Dean did not say that.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

;-)

"If I don't win the nomination, where do you think those million and a half people, half a million on the Internet, where do you think they're going to go?" he said during a meeting with reporters. "I don't know where they're going to go. They're certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician."

Dean sought to turn the tables Sunday, arguing that his blunt-speaking, Washington-outsider approach has drawn back legions of voters who had been turned off by politics. He warned that many of them are likely to stay home on Election Day, rather than vote for another Democrat, if he is not the party's presidential nominee.

Dean repeatedly has said he would endorse the eventual Democratic nominee and urge his supporters to do the same. But he said there are limits to the practical impact of his endorsement.

"That's not transferable. That's why endorsements are great but they don't guarantee anything," Dean said.

Clark (star voters,centrist independents)has supporters that won't transfer and Kucinich (Greens) does too. This should be a non-issue because it's so blatantly obvious.

Anyone familiar with Dean's grassroots campaign knows that he's brought alot of new voters, non-voters and independents to the table. I wouldn't reasonably expect all of that to transfer and in this case Dean may be right in assuming that alot of them are sold on Dean and are solidly anti-Washington. I would think that Clark could pick a great deal up but certainly not Kerry or Gep.

I will say it again. I would rather he crash and burn telling the truth to this country about what we are up to than to wimp and win.

It just does not matter to us, because the party has lost its way.

And seeing the attacks on Dean here so constantly make us very nervous that it is not accidental. Actually we know it is not accidental, but if I say so I will get deleted.

People who support other candidates are attackig him because they think if he wins nomination he will take us off cliff for another 4 years of *. What's wrong with that?

Go ahead and do your job.

madfloridian, "I would rather he crash and burn telling the truth to this country about what we are up to than to wimp and win."

How can anyone say something like this?

My God, it's this attitude that is killing the Democratic party.

If the shrub wins in 2004, all the friggin idealism in the world won't save this country from ruin.

They have done it to themselves for several years by being afraid to stand up.

Last I heard, we have a right to reservations about candidates. Last I heard.

have rights to have reservations about candidates...and the right to voice them.

Unfortunately, at least on DU it seems any time any of us (read all candidates' supporters here) give voice to those reservations attacks ensue rather than discussion. Like kids in a school yard we come back with, "yeah, and your guy is/did/said...(insert insult/slur/innuendo here)...nah nah nah nah nah".

In addition, may I ask...who the heck are THEY?

People here act as though they have absolutely NO responsibility for the leadership of this party. Well then HOW THE DEVIL DID THEY BECOME LEADERS?

Did ya'll just abdicate your influence in the party the past decade? Did you stay away from the polls? Did you stop advocating for what you wanted to see in the upper eschelon (sp) of the party?

Just how do you figure THEY got where they are?

Is it just possible folks who say, "I would rather he crash and burn telling the truth to this country about what we are up to than to wimp and win." are part of the problem rather than part of the solution? :argh:

Gee whiz, Dean does have a strong lead in the polls. How about that! They're reacting appropriately the situation as it really exists. DAMN THEM!

Dean supporters as a whole aren't declaring victory anywhere. Only the occasional whack job that nobody listens to does things like that.

If Dean people thought they had already won, they wouldn't be organizing for the next few weeks in NH and Iowa like they are, would they? If they had won, there would be no need for hard work, and the Dean supporters are clarly bustimng their ass right now.

Your personal opinion? Although every poll disagrees with you, I'd be curious to know if you have anything whatsoever to back that up other than wishful thinking.

:shrug:

Of course Dean can win.

And pray tell me this, what do you know that we don't know, huh? You say Dean supporters think they have won. Then you say:
"They haven't and they will be surprised at the end result."

Now do you have an inside to the final election results? Is there a big surprise waiting by the party? Is that what you are saying?

Zell couldn't support any of the nine Democratic candidates running and endorsed Bush.

That should have gotten him booted out of the Democratic Party. (Ron Brown would have seen to it.) Not this year.

That's a party in disarray, I hate to say.

The GOP would not have put up with that for a second.

Their biggest priority is putting someone, ANYONE with a (D) in office, with no regard to policies or winning with a popular mandate. The sole focus of these DNC higherups is running a glamour candidate with a pretty smile and hoping people rush in from the Republican Party to pull the "(D)" lever.

That's the strategy used in the 2002 elections, and though it failed, they're hoping it will work this time because. . . well. . . it just HAS to!

Any candidate who says anything different, or does anything different, or especially (GASP) brings new voters into the Democratic Party is to be exterminated! Hence the shady anonymous smear campaigns against Dean and attacks on Kucinich.

Honestly, in my years as a Democrat I never thought I would see a moderate, successful governor who declares that the death penalty should occur only after a fair trial finding someone guilty being painted as an "extremist," but here we are.

I never thought I'd see Democratic candidates saying "The Republicans are making this race about foreign policy so we have to run a foreign policy candidate." I thought Democrats were smarter than allowing the Republicans to frame the election, but here we are, with leading candidates arguing the same.

I never thought I'd live to see the day when Democrats of all types attack candidates and declare they'll sit out the election if their man didn't win, but here we are.

I never thought I'd live to see the day when candidates would be hated and feared by party stalwarts for bringing in new voters and huge sums of grassroots support and money to the party, but here we are.

I never thought I would see the day when Democratic candidates for president would launch shady ad campaigns against competing candidates and insist that they wish to follow the Republican plan to the letter with a few tweaks, but here we are.

Let's hope we get out of "here" fast! :wow:

Speak for yourself!

What the bleep is that? Is that how your party would treat a man who served our country for 34 years? And took 4 bullets I might add?

I do believe I detected a little wee bit of satire there.

That is what we are telling you.

I thought it was pretty clear.

Los Angeles Times Poll /DNC Members/ Dec. 4, 5 & 8–11, SELECTED RESULTS FROM THE TIMES POLL SURVEY OF DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE MEMBERS


Q5: Who would you like to see as the Democratic candidate
for president? (CANDIDATES’ NAMES NOT READ TO RESPONDENTS)

Howard Dean 28
John Kerry 13
Richard Gephardt 11
Wesley Clark 5
John Edwards 5
Joe Lieberman 2
Carol Moseley Braun 1
Al Sharpton –
Someone else 3
No one in particular 9
Don’t know 23

Q6: What if the candidates running for the Democratic presidential
nomination were Wesley Clark, Howard Dean, John
Edwards, Dick Gephardt, Dennis Kucinich, John Kerry, Joe
Lieberman, Carol Moseley Braun and Al Sharpton? Which,
if any, of these candidates would be your first choice for
president? (CANDIDATE NAMES ROTATED)

Howard Dean 32
Richard Gephardt 15
John Kerry 14
Wesley Clark 7
John Edwards 5
Joe Lieberman 3
Carol Moseley Braun 1
Al Sharpton –
Dennis Kucinich –
Someone else 1
None 3
Don’t know 19
-------------------------------

I am laughing my ass off here - it's not the the membership (see poll) -- it's the LEADERSHIP that Dr. Dean (and his supporters) are fed up with.

But not the Clark supporters on the whole.

They are no longer going to attack us with impunity.

Thanks for the poll, Melinda.

A :toast: for the poll.

Darn those pesky facts. :toast: backatcha mrs. mad :)

Currently there are two running against it. Will you post?

I'm swamped, please, do the honors. :hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=36427

so all related topics can be easily located.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You a very funny guy! :evilgrin:

Who is he going to cry to next year?

"Complaining about the torrent of attacks raining down on him from his rivals for the Democratic presidential nomination, Howard Dean on Sunday criticized his party's national chairman, Terry McAuliffe, for not intervening to tone down the debate."

Then, he uses his endorsements and supporters as a threat, batters other candidates...

"If I don't win the nomination, where do you think those million and a half people, half a million on the Internet, where do you think they're going to go?" he said during a meeting with reporters. "I don't know where they're going to go. They're certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician."

"Though Dr. Dean has repeatedly said he would back whichever Democrat wins the nomination, he said Sunday that support was "not transferable anymore" and that endorsements, including his own, "don't guarantee anything."

then has the absolute unmitigated gaul to say:

"you can't beat George Bush if you behave like the Democrats are behaving."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/29/politics/campaigns/29DEAN.html

Complete disaster.

True. Let's see, he got into the WH in 2000, and last year we lost seats.

True statement.

i'm not fond of him either, but the thing is - i dont think most dems will like him much when they actually start looking at him. he's still a darkhorse running a polarizing campaign against both his party and an incumbent.

Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater here. No votes are cast, and every day he seems destined to say something new that ruffles feathers - and dont think these statements of his arent inching his negatives up every day. His non-diehard support was pretty shallow - and a lot of people are seriously rethinking. Get out there - make your phone calls - donate to your candidate - and fight for it.

Follow this reasoning;
Gore endorses Dean.
Gore cold-shoulders Liebermann.
Gore is controlled by Bill & Hillary Clinton.
The Clintons want Dean to run against Bush and LOSE.
Liebermann has a chance against Bush as Dean id a bit too far to the left for the majority (IMHO)
The Clintons want Hillary to run in 2008 against a non-incumbent GOP candidate and NOT a sitting Democratic President.

Do you see where this is going?

Nomination has to be earned. It involves being attack, and in HD's case attacking everyone - including his base. Not a good strategy in my book. he is underestimate the strength of the ABB. I know it's only a pathetic 12 dean supporters signing for the ABB thread, but by November, only the trully insane won't join the fight against W.
memo to HD, supporters: the democrats are not the enemies. They should be your base. Convince them or antagonize them - and rip the consequences.

now the candidates want to get out the truth about Howard Dean and he whines about it? I dislike this man more each day.

Because in this case, Democrats should at least be united by the obvious and undeniable fact that ANY Democrat in the field would far superior to Bush, and that criticisms of fellow Democrats should, at minimum, stop short of suggesting otherwise.

Gore was a jerk to Bradley, but never has so much self-destructive animousity been directed at our own best chances from within. Couldn't have Republicans doing a better job convincing all of our overwhelming favorites being the most unelectible.

Seems our own party leadership is convinced that Democrats who identify strongly with the party's general outlook and philosophy are relegated as unelectible if they are not Repub-lite or supportive of Bush. Face it, our party has been sucessfully hijacked and it will remain neutered and non-challenging to the likes of Bush-Cheney-Ashcroft and Rumsfeld until their corporate fingers are pried off the reins.

that's just your opinion.

Correct me if I am wrong but has there ever been such viciousness as the Osama/Dean ad??? Only by the reich-wing as far as I know. That was way over the top.

Yes, the Dems want to stop Dean (many do anyway) but you don't seem to understand why. If you were comfortably ensconced in a well-feathered nest you too might get jittery if it looked like you might have to move. ;-)

Julie

what he is accusing the DNC of doing. He should PRIVATELY talk to them if he has a grievance - and quite honestly, the other candidates have a right to do their thing now - as long as they fall in line when the nominee is selected.

Love Gov. Dean, but this time he has handled this the wrong way

The DNC leadership (or lack thereof) is directly responsible for the sad shape of our party today, and I am glad to see Dr. Dean stand up and speak out about them. No more from the top down by the DNC, but by US from the bottom up, and the latest DNC poll wherein Dr. Dean has solid support from the party base - not leadership - reflects just that.

Can you list the accomplishments of the DNC under Terry McAuliffe? Can anyone?

You want the Status quo? Keep on keepin on.

if so then it would show how much they truly do not want him.

Doing exactly what he accuses his "opponents" of doing -- except somehow Dean is a hero for doing it. :shrug:

suddenly , their alternate candidate makes all that dissappear . wow.
:nuke:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I'm sure they'll have similar advice for the Olde Democratic plow horse they throw their support behind: support the Bush war, support the Bush tax cuts, pander to the NASCAR dads... and get out your golf clubs, cause you're gonna have a lot of spare time on your hands.

Not nearly this self destructive and stupid.

:( Since Howard

was one of the first candidates to start "bashing" other candidates, I think Howard needs to take his blankie and go sit in a corner for a timeout until he learns how to take what he dishes out.

"you can't beat George Bush if you behave like the Democrats are behaving." :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:

Democratic presidential front-runner Howard Dean yesterday blasted new 2004 candidate Wesley Clark as "a Republican until 25 days ago" who has become the "desperation" candidate for establishment Democrats.

"What you see in the Wes Clark candidacy is somewhat of a desperation by inside-the-Beltway politicians," Dean told the CBS program "Face the Nation."

"You've got a lot of establishment politicians now surrounding a general who was a Republican until 25 days ago, voted for Ronald Reagan, voted for Dick Nixon, supported the war last October."

Howard needs to look in the mirror.