On the General Discussion page I count 14 seperate threads attacking Clinton

Most of them are flame bait. This is really getting pathetic.

... they have been planted here in order to continue to attack Dems and posters who write the truth.

It seems to be the one area where republicans are allowed to rage freely. As I have stated before, it has to be a creepy feeling knowing that you are being cheered on, or joined, by the lurking freepers.

... But note how some immediately thought that everyone who opposed Hillary was, somehow, being called Republican when my initial post makes no such reference.

but may be self-inflicted victims of the MSM. Hard to say. She's not my favorite, but I hardly think that she's as bad as she's painted to be, plus I'd take her over any of the alternatives if she gets in the General Election. Any of them.

For the hard core detractors: you can discuss a candidate's weak points in more productive (and diplomatic) ways. I think she's too conservative compared to myself - she's quite a centrist really, but that's the exact reason I think she might make a good President.

It's Republicans. Paid operatives. No one else would critique Hillary. Critique is always attack. What a bummer.

My rational is if you defend a negative, it still remains a negative. As well as, if you support such a matter.
You are given a stigmata,(using GOP talking points)for just being observant and calling it as it is.
There are Democrats, Dumbocrats, and there are Republic-rats. It is part of that natural order perspective. There can not be such a thing as beauty, if there are not any uglies mucking about.
And thank Allah for Billary, for without her presence we wouldn't have the ability to acknowledge beauty.
As my buddy Snicklefritz Plenticott would put it, "without her ya wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Bu$h*t or Shinola!"

are also adamently against how corporate media has annoited her while giving little attention to other viable DEMOCRATIC candidates.

You're DEAD WRONG if you think those who stand in strong opposition of her are republicans. Far from it.

If they oppose her for good, solid liberal reasons, why do they use republican arguments?

I'm tired of the Clintons and I want somebody new.

Is that liberal and solid enough for ya?

You have hit it in the eye ball! What other analogy can we use, other than cleaning house. How about weeding out the corporate herd!

The merging of corporate power and government=fascism

They think she'll be the easiest one to beat - or in the event they don't beat her the one they can most easily live with.

Critique of Hillary from within the Democratic party and on DU is coming mainly from the left, from REAL Democrats, and rightfully so. You can't honestly say she's making anybody but the DLC:ers happy.

A strong plurality of likely Democratic primary and caucus voters in almost all polls are DLCers? If that's true wouldn't they be the REAL Democrats? Can't have it both ways - either she appeals to a broad spectrum of Democrats, or DLCers are the biggest constituency in the party.....

They make up a considerably large part of the party, yes, but I wouldn't call them real Democrats as much as Republican-Lite. True Democratic values to me are progressive, liberal values. Hillary does not have them.

you are saying true democratic values are shared only by a small and electorally irrelevant portion of the population? I mean ALL Dems are about the same in number as Reps, and if you want to cede the considerably large moderate part of the party to the Republicans where exactly does that leave you? Salving your conscience in permanent purity and irrelevance? Count me out there. I would rather see better government with those with whom I disagree (but disagree far less than I do with the alternative) than be effectively disenfranchised and condemned to horrible government while living in an echo-chamber of exactly like minded mental clones of myself who have absolutely no ability or influence on shaping the nation and its policies. Might as well join the Workers Party for that kind of fate.

Your road of appeasement is a dead end. How far does it have to go before you realize it? We need nothing short of a goddamn revolution to get away from where we are now, and I'm sorry, but moderates and centrists make for lousy revolutionaries. Just ask Nancy Fucking Pelosi!

:eyes:

I don't like HRC and am not afraid to say it...does that make me a republican plant too?

I have no respect for Green Party ideologues that think destroying the Democratic Party is more important then keeping the Pukes out of the government. They are nothing but a 5th collumn, fuck them.

I like her just fine as much as any of the candidates. But the fact is that our candidate is going to have to deal with 10 million times worse from the other side if they are the nominee. In every possible forum, in every possible way. So perhaps rather than any of us complaining about it, let's all no matter who our candidate is figure out a way to respond quickly, forcefully, and accurately.

This goes the same for the Obama supporters whining about people attacking him or whoever else.

The comical thing here is that this is a PROGRESSIVE discussion board that represents the left wing of the party. Hillary is NOT progressive. And no matter how hard you Hillary lovers try, you just can't win over 100% of DUers. And you never will. But you keep on whining and complaining that not all DUers love your candidate.

It's time to face facts. Instead of complaining about the flame bait (and before you throw out that accusation, check out how many long time DUers are speaking out against Hillary), you need to be telling us GOOD reasons we should vote for her. Cause she lost me when she said we would be in Iraq for 7 more years. She lost a lot of DUers. She never had a lot more. No matter how much you whine, she doesn't have our votes. And your chastising us is not going to win us over.

I'm voting for Colbert. My red state hasn't picked a Dem president since 1964 so my vote doesn't count anyway. I am going to need to see a DRASTIC change in Hillary's stance on many issues before she gets my vote. Your whining is NOT going to change my mind. So write Hillary and tell her to end the damn war. Then she will gain a ton of votes on the left.

Or you could keep whining.

My preferences are:
Kucinich, Obama, Edwards then Hillary, in that order.

Attacking me personally for pointing out a simple fact highlights my point perfectly. I see Hillary, Hillary, Hillary on the first page so I go through and count them. That somehow makes me a Hillary lover? Your reply is EXACTLY what I am sick of. Attack attack attack. Its the mindless nature of the whole thing. It's the obsession and the vitriol that I am talking about. It is negatively affecting the whole board.

We welcome Democrats of all stripes

http://www.democraticunderground.com/about.html

I think it's fine if you don't support Sen. Clinton, but please don't re-write the purpose of DU.

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole.

White House".

You apparently don't share that goal when it comes to HRC... maybe it's you who isn't welcome here.

and you didn't address my point.

not that I expected you to....

The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%

Where the hell am I this morning.

It must be someone else's fault. It couldn't be that HRC's negatives are dragging the party down to potential defeat. It couldn't be that HRC does not represent the mainline DU member. NOOOOO! The problem lies with everybody but Hillary. :shrug:

One would think that the "people don't dislike her too much" crowd might stop and question that assumption in the face of the ENDLESS opposition on a lefty board like this. She engenders disgust and anger from all sorts of directions and for many of her actions and inactions.

The only response her supporters seem to have about this is: "gosh, y'all're so MEAN", instead of the "hmmm...maybe, uh, there's a problem here" that a SANE person would see in a heartbeat.

It's SO unfair that everybody's so horrible to her, especially when hardly anyone really dislikes her that much.

Imagine what Frank would say.

there are many Democrats who REALLY do not want to see her as the nominee.

But if it helps, I've stopped attacking her myself, because my voice was drowned in the vast torrent
of hatred. Seems like a quite a phenomenon to me. :shrug:

is the sense of pride some of these Hillary Haters seem to have. You can almost see the spittle fly from their mouths as they stammer and sputter their Approved Anti-Hillary Talking Points and watch their faces turn red and twist with rage as the passion of their "principles" overtakes their reason. Kinda reminds me of those Christian Conservatives who, when faced with statistics and facts that show something they believe to be fact might perhaps be otherwise, haul out the predictable set of Reasons Why They're Right -- and you're not -- and start hammerin' you over the head.

I never thought I'd see the day when the venom, hatred and misinformation from Democrats matched pound-for-pound the venom, hatred and misinformation one often associates from Conservative Republicans. I often prided the Dems on being reasonable, intelligent and well-informed, but not anymore. DU has proven otherwise ... especially on the Hillary Issue.

QUOTE: I often prided the Dems on being reasonable, intelligent and well-informed, but not anymore. DU has proven otherwise.

Why don't you just call us all worthless cunts who will destroy the planet for you and be done with it.

you can actually exhibit it much better than I ever could put into words.

Suck it up and deal. :eyes:

The Caucuses and Primaries are coming up and once the party fights it out who the nominees will be, then the troops will rally.

That would be the time to complain about the "attacks", not now.


Welcome to the democratic process.... ;)

The anti-hillary folks try their damndest to get those flamebait threads on the DU homepage. If the Mods & Admins are alerted they'll have those threads removed (from the homepage - not locked and/or deleted).

I'm guessing there are about 50-75 anti-hill folks here at DU who would rather have another 8 years of republicans running the white house INCLUDING sacrificing the Supreme Court to the religious right in order to keep Hillary out of the White House

nominee rather than negative ads

I'm no fan of Clinton, but the plethora attack threads are ridiculous. I alert on the worst of them and ignore the rest. Gotta' love that "hide thread" function.

Which is the major tactic of the anti-hill crowd and probably why there are 14 anti-hill threads in GDP. Their hopes is that one will get enough recommendations to put it on the homepage. Then DU looks like we're some anti-democrat site.

Personally I think that tactic SUCKS.

but I alert on them when they are over the line...which is more and more often lately.

Fuck the "resistance is futile" meme. She'll have to earn it just like they all do.

Obsession is irrational. Hate is irrational.

After which, it will not be allowed on this site. Isn't the primary season the time when we're supposed to this? I mean talk up our candidate and denounce the ones we don't like? Do we have to be all pleasant and nice?

For instance, in this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3631319&mesg_id=3631319

The OP reads thusly:

There's an odd and self-congratulatory belief among many of Senator Clinton's supporters that her deriders and opponents are defectives. They're misogynists and fascists and fundamentalists and communists and they're not fit for polite society. The assumption that follows from this simplistic mischaracterization is even worse: that misfits are by definition tiny minorities that really don't add up in the long run.

I can understand the anger they feel at the many nasty, unpleasant and dismissive things said about her and I'm aware of the inherent human trait--especially among leftists--of wanting to circle the wagons and defend one's own ever more in the face of adversity.

This is not a thread of "gosh, how could it be like this?" confusion; I submit that I understand this phenomenon and that it doesn't take an Oppenheimer to see it: it's defensive confidence in its classical form. Fine. For whatever reason, many people support her.

The problem and the disconnect is this: opposition to her is real. It's really, really, REALLY real, and it's of proportions that are almost if not completely insurmountable.

Some of the people who dislike her are despicable and do so for ugly or silly reasons, but some of us have some valid reasons and we're far from the fringes. For many of us who dislike her from the left, it's a question of disgust, not hatred. For those of us who value the truth and are seriously concerned about the image of the party as being one of veracity and decency instead of equivocation and expediency, she's an unqualified disaster.

Enough of that. There are plenty of other places to hash out the relative merits of her as a person, her as a politician and her policies. The point wasn't to fan the flames here; I'll do that elsewhere and have done it plenty.

The big point here is this: there's a huge disconnect between reality and assumption. The assumption that I say is at odds with reality is the one that says that all the people against her are really just a tiny minority and not indicative of much.

It goes on in this tone. No name calling, no outlandish hyperbole, just a point being made that is in opposition to your view. So you slapped a "flamebait" label on it. I read the thread and there was, subsequently, some very civil, intelligent and well reasoned discussion. Sadly though, you failed to appreciate that. Here was your contribution to the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3631319&mesg_id=3631523

It's the useless FLAME BAIT posts like this one people are tired of

And I have never heard anyone state that her detractors were, "defective," as you say, (Ok, maybe rabid blind-wth-hatred haters but not "defective". Oy.) so I'm not sure where you came up with that one. One thing I will say is that the endless vitriol thrown at her is dragging down overall tone at the DU.

I imagine that the lurking freepers (see post #31) here find endless hours of joy watching the circular firing squad with their anti-Clinton antics, and that more than a few join in the attacks knowing fully well that they can say whatever they want about her with no recourse. The whole debacle is making me sympathetic towards her, I might add.

I do suspect that the DU admins will put a stop to the whole Hillary hating movement, if she does win the nomination, and begin warning or banning those who engage in same. This is almost as good as vowing vengence from bible-god--either way the offender will get in line or get whacked, right?

It will be interesting to see how the Hillary haters See? Just blind haters, but not "defective", no, no. Never actually said that react to the prospect of someone WORSE than Bush (Gulianni) looming on the horizon. I have the feeling more than a few will swallow their pride. Ah finally! The humiliation of your evil arch-enemies! Won't it be great to humiliate them and watch them wallow in their disappointment?? One can only sudder with glee at the prospect of it!

Wow. I'd say, from looking at the OP and then looking at your response....there appears to be an element of projection here. I note no effort to even be remotely diplomatic in your post there, you don't refute any of the valid points (though you do try and fail with one) and contribute exactly zero substance to the discussion.

And here kick off an entire thread about your view of flamebait (aka any post that presents a view that you disagree with). Maybe I will kick off a thread about Irony.

:eyes:

Julie

She is not only the president, she's also a client!

Now the Hillary haters search on my name for tidbits to attack me with then spend a half hour piecing them together out of context!! MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

:spank: :spank: :spank: :spank:

I happened to read POE's thread and post to it, clicked out of it and there was your whinefest.

Like the other useless keyboard commandoes, I am grateful you are here whining and carrying on. It keeps you out from underfoot of the adults in the real world who are actually doing stuff.

Carry on poor little fool, carry on.

Julie

and that it is getting personal with someone.

Argumentum ad hominem (argument directed at the person):

This is the error of attacking the character or motives of a person who has stated an idea, rather than the idea itself.

:nopity: :nopity: :nopity:

The guy who said he'd "throw up" if Hillary gets nominated is much more typical of the anti-Clinton crowd.

I was referring to the civil and well reasoned threads/posts being lumped in with the rabid, uncivil ones.

Apparently that is a distinction many don't want to bother making. Whatever.

Julie

But some of us are tired after a hard day at work.

The anti-Hillary people have swallowed the media attitude towards Hillary, hook, line, and sinker--along with the belief that Republicans are big and bad. What's more, they're mighty proud of it. Though they sometimes feign rationality (usually after a long bout of incontinent badmouthing and slander), personal animosity is clearly at the heart of everything they say. Most of them brag openly about the depth of their hatred.

Let's face it, the Hillary-haters set new standards for slime EVERY SINGLE DAY. These are the charming people who threaten not to vote if Hilary get nominated, or say they'll throw up. Virtually no one else at DU does this sort of thing--it's the hallmark of the anti-Hillary crowd. Their case against Hillary always seems to involve an obsessive focus on one or two issues or facts. They keep asking for information, but ignore the information when you give it to them--rather like the conspiracy guys.

And their craven fear of Republicans is positively embarrassing! Their favorite argument is that Hillary will get the big bad Repubs mad at us, and they'll kick our butts for sure. They've got no more spunk than a hamster.

I fear the anti-Clinton contingent will spend the next eight years trotting over here every day with the latest bad news about Hillary cooked up by the RNC--you know, in case morale gets too high around here or something. Or they'll join a third party, and spend the rest of their lives watching their candidates lose. That would be best.

Some of the circular firing squad must be sleeping in this morning...