"Waterboarding is Torture… Period -When done right it is controlled death" - Former Navy SEAL

Waterboarding is Torture… Period (Updated)

1. Waterboarding is a torture technique. Period. There is no way to gloss over it or sugarcoat it. It has no justification outside of its limited role as a training demonstrator. Our service members have to learn that the will to survive requires them accept and understand that they may be subjected to torture, but that America is better than its enemies and it is one’s duty to trust in your nation and God, endure the hardships and return home with honor.

2. Waterboarding is not a simulation. Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

Waterboarding is a controlled drowning that, in the American model, occurs under the watch of a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a trained strap-in/strap-out team. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning. How much the victim is to drown depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim’s face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs which show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of black out and expiration –usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch and if it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia. When done right it is controlled death. Its lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threaten with its use again and again.

Much more at:
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004617.php

They say its just a little fun and it takes place in a camp similar to Club Med.

I have never have understood why they would never have it demonstrated on them to prove THEIR POINT. Could it be that they and their supporters are ignorant constitution hating trash too proud to admit they have been totally fucking wrong about Iraq and torture for about five years now?

thanks for the post My Friend.

remember when tasers first came out and lots of local reporters volunteered to get Tasered to show how harmless it is??? How come Rush, Hannity, Joey Scar, O'Lielly and the rest dont volunteer to show us how harmless waterboarding is??

"I have never have understood why they would never have it demonstrated on them to prove THEIR POINT"

I, for one, would pay GOOD money to see that.

The principle I knew was that you (almost) killed someone and then brought them back, time and time again until they told you what you wanted to hear.

Everyone should read this. I'd like to see how long Rush Limbaugh would last experiencing this "fraternity prank."

:puke:

:kick:

How anyone could equivocate about it defies belief.

That is until I saw a video of it. Until you have actually seen it, you can't grasp how awful it is.

I was at work last night and showed a couple of coworkers some YouTube videos of it, and they freaked out. Both are semi-Bushbots and they were pretty shaken.

They had simply never seen this (Faux News watchers, I'm sure).

I really felt like I changed two people's opinions.

It was demonstrated on a controversial episode of Mythbusters. No danger of death with Chinese water torture - but plenty danger of nightmares, PTSD, or outright insanity. 90 minutes under the drip is probably enough to break most people.

...about all of this--is that our government knows that torture does not work.

Let's all say that again...our government knows--because of the research that is
out there--that torture does not work.

If anything, people will tell you lies, just to get the torture to stop. I would
make up lies and confess to things I didn't do--just to get it to stop.

I firmly believe that our government and this administration is SO mentally ill
and so sadistic--that they enjoy doing this to people. They get off on it.

I think they love harming people and controlling people and causing them pain--
because they enjoy it.

Someone tell me when one iota of data obtained from torture--has resulted in
a botched terror plot? There is no evidence of that, yet the torture continues.

It's so sick, I can hardly bear that this is being done in my name.

Our country is in a dark, perverse place--where psychopaths and sadistic freaks
are running the show. It's very sad and these people are low-life, classless,
dirty scumballs for what they have done in our name.

for what they have done in our name.

Your statement - "I firmly believe that our government and this administration is SO mentally ill
and so sadistic--that they enjoy doing this to people. They get off on it.....Our country is in a dark, perverse place--where psychopaths and sadistic freaks
are running the show."

As a professional in the mental health field, I have been saying this for years. That is the primary reason why I can hardly stand to watch Bush, or listen to him speak.

Not a day goes by that I don't see some indicator of significant psychopathology in our alleged President. Likewise, Rummy and various other hangers-on, in much the same way that perverts found their way into the Nazi government.

The curious sexual component inherent in the "torture" at Abu Ghraib and probably other detention facilities as well, (we don't have pictures from anywhere else) causes me to believe that other purposes are being served, beyond extracting information from terrorists.

Are we really to believe that a hardened terrorist is going to reveal where the WMDs are hidden, or whatever, as a result of having been smeared with menstrual(sic) blood, having to wear women's panties, or having someone point to their erect penis and laugh? Even allowing for cultural differences in terms of humiliation, it just doesn't scan.

Arguably, sodomizing someone with a broomstick would be considered torture, in terms of pain and injury inflicted, but still...

I think your statement, above, is correct. They are "getting off", in the most literal sense of that phrase, on what's being done. Thus the pictures and videos. My candidates would be Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Scalia, maybe Thomas etc. Plus, other secondary characters.

We are in a terrible mess! Those controlling what's left of our government shouldn't be in charge of an ice cream social, let alone a nuclear armed military. Why people can't connect the dots is beyond me.

We're in "rule by decree" mode now. Democracy is so 20th century...

And judging by what some threadjackers are saying, the end justify the means. Anything to extract a confession, no matter how half-assed, from a "terraist."

:sarcasm:

...because--as you know--denial is so much easier.

Most people do not want to face what they know is happening in this country.

People ignore it, go about their days and live their lives. Understanding
that there are sadistic, abusive people running this country is a very upsetting
concept.

I agree with everything you said. Being in the mental-health profession, you
understand the signs of dysfunctional behavior. I'm no expert, but I had 5
years of therapy due to an abusive childhood. I was raised by conservatives
who behave just as Bush does. Even their facial expressions, demeanor and
other habits are so similar. It's very odd.

It scares me, because my abusers operated on a small scale--within a family.
These abusers have our entire country to traumatize and abuse. You see Bush
abusing and demeaning the Democrats in Congress. When I see Harry Reid and
others counter Bush--it's like watching frightened, domestic-abuse victims.

I saw Reid commenting on this recent AG nomination. This AG refuses to
denounce waterboarding as torture. I'm paraphrasing Reid, but he said--
'We hope to have a good, positive meeting with the pResident on this, and
I understand that the AG nominee has said waterboarding is bad, but he
won't speak specifically about it being used by our government. But
we hope we can move forward on this nomination and address our concerns."

The Democrats seem to allow Bush to set the agenda and they operate under
his terms. They allow an AG who will not denounce waterboarding as a US
government practice. They don't decry this with the outrage it deserves.
The pResident sets their agenda. It's like they've all been stripped of
their personal power. Can you imagine what Bush does to them behind
closed doors?

Sorry for the rambling post. I'm very concerned. You understand, as you
understand sociopaths, psychopaths and the horrendous damage they can inflict.

to what's going on, now. Bush speaks to the people of this country in the language of domination. He's always lecturing in a angry way and telling us what we should "understand". The abusive family situation, as a model, is appropriate.

Re: Harry Reid, I think most in Congress and a significant percentage of the American people are caught in the throe's of a collective Stockholm Syndrome brought about by fear, subsequent to 9/11, that Bush has mercilessly promoted. And he has constantly promoted himself i.e. "my" government, as the one person who can keep us safe.

I think Georgie's nastiness and petulant manner have contributed to the coarsening and uncaring attitude that I've seen in American society in general. It all is modeled from the top.

Something else which is very troubling. In terms of the cycle of violence: The Bush Administration follows the pattern with only minor variations i.e. bush never shows remorse, but the spinmeisters are always telling us that some atrocity was a mistake, they're sorry and it won't happen again (till the next time). I've heard people (here and elsewhere) express that it might be better if they just go ahead an bomb Iran. This is said out of frustration with the constant tension; will they? won't they? As tension builds in the cycle of violence, the victim will sometimes trigger the abuse just to get it over with.

Also, Bush has absolutely no capacity for empathy. When he climbed into that giant earth mover at the Caterpiller factory is a case in point. He fired that thing up and started driving it across the floor. Everyone (press and staff) were running for their lives. To think he could safely operate that piece of equipment is ludicrous, especially since he can't even hold a hammer properly.

Afterward, he slid open the window and laughed about the whole thing.How inappropriate! He has no concept. A harmless practical joke is funny - the kind of thing you see on America's Funniest Videos. This was not that. Someone could have been killed. But it's not him, so it's funny. Ha ha.

I could go on. The examples are many. Why is he still there???

After a lifetime of believing that our country is above this, and that our elected officials would never permit such atrocities, and that WE are complicit in such atrocities by electing them, it is almost beyond the capability of many thousands of people to make such a seismic shift in their thinking.

This is why the German people remained in a state of denial. This is why our troops must be trained that whatever enemy they are to engage is subhuman.

But, I am preaching to the choir.

...if you're being tortured, your best option is to tell the interrogator what he wants to hear.

Having extracted the desired responses, the Bushistas may then point to the 'data' and say 'This proves we were right!'

It will NOT work if you want the truth; but the Bushistas aren't interested in any of the reality-based stuff. Torture works GREAT for Gee Dubya and his gang.

:grr:

"Mukasey should listen to longtime counterterrorism expert Malcolm Nance. Nance, a veteran of counterterrorism operations in Iraq... And Nance knows what he's talking about. As an instructor at the Navy's training program for its special forces, Nance... confesses that he "personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people" -- not detainees, of course, but would-be SEALs, so they could learn how (hopefully) to resist torture."

These people need to have their medical licenses revoked.

Then they need to be tried for the crime itself.

Primum non nocere in Latin

Although NOT a part of the Hippocratic Oath, it is the guiding philosophy for physicians everywhere.

You DO NOT participate in ANY action that ultimately causes harm to a patient.

We should be ashamed of ourselves.

... only with more dead people.

It's not as if Bush himself was the first one to ever invent "enhanced interrogation" techniques, instead of the German Gestapo.

:banghead:

This former frogman was put on the board at SERE school in Southern Ca. back in 83. If you keep your teeth clenched and don't panic you can still breathe out of the sides of your mouth, but it sure felt like what you'd imagine drowning would feel like.
Of course the guys that did us were trained not to injure the students.

I'd like to see all those nice folks who see this as little more than a harmless frat prank or a "little discomfort" TRY IT THEMSELVES. Subject themselves to it if they're so brave, and then see if they feel the same way.

It sounds utterly ghastly.

and part of the training is a stay in a mock up POW camp. I believe the place we went to was outside Warner Springs.

So, after everyone is "captured" they put you in this mock camp with guards and funny accents, and you have to try and escape to "freedom village", and there they gave you a cold piece of fried chicken or a sandwich, and than we got brought back to the compound and waterboarded and roughed up for "escaping".

In the POW camp, they kept playing this announcement, "Boots, boots, boots marching up and down", and really weird Chinese music played full volume on a speakers system.

I don't know many of those abbreviations.

Thank you for your service, btw, and glad you're here! Anybody who can withstand waterboarding gets a rawther large salute from me!

:headbang: :patriot:

It was a gas! Lotsa fun for a young man.

but I have a friend who's a pilot with the Navy. He was waterboarded. He said it was extremely unpleasant, but he thought, "they just spent a million dollars teaching me to fly. My head is below my chest. I can't drown. They're going to let me breathe soon. I'll be okay. After a while they're going to take me off this. They can't kill me; that would be a waste." He said once he realized that, he decided he could do it as long as they kept him there.

If someone didn't know that they weren't actually going to drown? Yeah, they'd be terrified. But they aren't in any actual danger.

He didn't think it was torture, but that might be bravado. I wouldn't know.

Hence the mini-tempest over Mukasey. I'm sure they'll cave promptly, but it's a start.

torture, diapers, whips you name it.

thank you.

When a person is waterboarded, their head is below their chest. Water does not fill the lungs. The victim does not drown. It stimulates the gag reflex, and leads the person to believe they are drowning. They are not. A person may be waterboarded indefinitely, so long as they are occasionally allowed to breathe--which they are, as they have to be allowed to answer questions.

Torture? I dunno. Probably, I'd say. Personally, I'd ban the practice just because it doesn't give good information.

Basileus Basileon

If you dosent belive Waterboarding are torture, you may are willing to tray it out?...

Chinese Water Torture is not "tortur" per se. But after a 1000 dip on a bald head, it is REALLY TORTUR for the victim... And after 10.000 dip on your head, you are medical Incane..

The intersting part with Waterboarding is that when the old USSR was using it, as a interigation tool the US State department was condemning the action, and branded it as blatant torture use.. When the US are using the thing, then it is NOT branded as tortur... I cant figure out what the diference are between the use in the old USSR, and the use in the US military are...

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

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SERE on occasion kills or injures participants.

And the United States of America, at least the one whose Constitution I used to serve, DOES NOT TORTURE.

We incarcerated Imperial Japanese for waterboarding POW's.

I repeat, you have no honor.

"First to fight for right and freedom , AND TO KEEP OUR HONOR CLEAN..."

Seconded. If it's not torture, why would the US have given out fifteen years of hard labor for it?

The Nuremberg and Tokyo war-crimes tribunals are just faint memories in a classroom for some people, if that.

He wrote an excellent post, and it should be rewuired reading.
However, the author is not a former SEAL, nor does he claim to be. You all need to change the headline as quickly as possible.
There are far too many people claiming to be SEALS who are not. I don't want this guy to get grief because he is presented as a former SEAL.
Mongo

What cry baby's. So now suffocating is torture? It's only torture if it happen to an American solder. Wait? that did not come out right. Ok.. Let's pick any republican congressman , set him up with waterboarding, give him the full treatment, and
get his honest opinion after he has the real experience. This should clear up any confusion.

Or better yet, take a look at those waterboarding pictures at Tuol Sleng in Cambodia and see if you can still tell me that bullshit with a straight face.

My take, anyway.

So sad to see such wit wasted.

I cannot believe that we allow, nay, endorse this as acceptable treatment of other human beings!