Joe Biden - Where Am I Wrong?

I read almost all of the DU posts concerning individual candidates. It is a part of my obligation to study each candidate to make an informed decision.

I cannot prevent my vote for Joe Biden. For me, there is simply no other choice. I am compelled by the pragmatic facts concerning him when compared to the other candidates.

My research has revealed that each and every candidate is honorable and would make an excellent Chief Executive. I do not see a single corrupt or undeserving person in the list we must choose from. Each candidate brings a special set of tools to the table. Having said this, I see no other candidate that brings as many or as well-honed tools as Joe Biden. For me, it is obvious that he is the complete package.

I hope that I have approached this decision in an intellectually honest way. I believe I have. I do not want to be drawn in by my emotions or let my passion over-ride my reason. I want to base my decision on the individuals qualifications, experience, leadership ability and most of all, how these fit into what this country needs most at this time in our history.

Unlike other posts that trash other candidates, most of the Biden supporters refrain from such nonsense. In support of this approach, instead of asking members of this board to convince me of their candidate, I would like to have members convince me why I should NOT support Joe Biden. I would like to do this with a short series of questions. If you are not a Biden supporter, please convince me where I am wrong on the following points. Hopefully, my mind is open enough (not letting my passion over-ride my reason) that I can acknowledge good points as well as bad.

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EXPERIENCE
What is the most important priority we face as a nation?
While there could be many excellent answers, I see Foreign Affairs as the highest priority.

Who has more experience in Foreign Affairs than Joe Biden? He is five steps ahead of this administration on every FA issue and I believe stands the best chance of restoring our reputation in the global community.

Where am I wrong here?

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LEADERSHIP
Who among the candidates demonstrates the strongest leadership skills?
While it could be argued that many of the candidates would make excellent leaders, I don’t believe that it is a wash.

Joe Biden has a long track record of “dynamic” leadership. The kind of leadership that can bring people together.

Is there something I’m missing, or is this pretty accurate?

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PASSION
Joe Biden has always spoken his mind with little regard to the political fallout. In fact, he has paid the price for ill-advised comments off and on for 35 years. I see this as a plus. Because with this “flaw,” we are assured that Joe Biden will speak his mind directly and (I believe) honestly. Unlike some of the other candidates, Joe Biden doesn’t play the “safe-game” as an offering to the political gods.

What other candidate speaks so directly to the issues?

Am I wrong about this?

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COMMUNICATION SKILLS
And...in light of the above point concerning passion, Joe Biden is among (if not the best) communicator of all the candidates. Yes, he is considered verbose. But as Bill Maher said once of Joe Biden...Sometimes issues are so complex that they can’t be addressed in a single sentence.

Is Joe Biden the best communicator of the current candidates?

Am I missing something?

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There are other points, equally impotant. But perhaps they will be saved for another time.

Joe Biden is far from an “average Joe.” For me, he is not only the most qualified candidate, he impresses me as being “genuine”...a “real” person who loves his country and truly believes he can turn this ship of state around.

I don’t know why Joe Biden is not among the “top tier” candidates. Oh, I suspect it is a media thing. Electability is big in the media. For me, electability is a phantom designed to be divisive. I have no time to let my convictions be influenced by who is so-called “electable” and who is not. I’ll decide that on my own, thank you.

As these candidates compete for a front row seat in the theater of your mind, consider the points that have been brought up here (if you haven’t already). If you feel that Joe Biden is not the kind of person with a character I have represented above, then you must vote your conscience. You are obligated to do so...to be true to your convictions.

Any response to my assessment, to help me understand where my thinking is bad, would be greatly appreciated.

-Paige

bankruptcy bill, a moment he could have seized. MKJ

from what I am seeing that seems to be the worst thing against him. Some parts of bankruptcy probably did need some reform, but it was taken too far. I can still comfortably support him, especially when I compare him to the other choices. BTW, Obama voted for the bankruptcy bill too. I do not know about the others.

Voters tend to like outsiders. It's a longstanding tradition in American politics. That's really working gainst him.

and we are led to believe that that's who the future voters like right now.

in spite of his 'foot in mouth' disease.

with his staunch support of the bankruptcy bill and later with his support of Gonzales as AG.
The bankruptcy bill is a disaster for consumers. I know he is from Delaware (land of a million corporate mailboxes). I know he claims that there were legitimate reasons that he was selling out the middle class. But sell them out he did.
Both of the above really make me question his judgment. Were I to support Joe he would have to be so damn much better on all else, yet he comes up short. He may have the big answer on Iraq. If so I believe that as head of the Senate Foreign Relations committee he helps lead us to some kind of sane solution in Iraq. I see that as his best potential contribution.
Hell of a speechifier though, the kind of speaker that would fire up a football team.

I think you bring up valid points.

I do not believe that Joe Biden has made 100% sound decisions over the 35 years he has represented his state. Mistakes have been made. But allow me two points here.

It may not be a valid excuse (or reason), Joe Biden has an obligation to represent his state. As flawed and as damaging as his vote was on the bill you refer to, I believe that he chose for the sake of his constituents...not always a smart idea, I admit.

Secondly, I simply don't think you can spend 35 years in the Senate without making mistakes...even one as bad as the bill you refer to.

But, you bring up excellent points and ones that I had considered.

-Paige

Last I heard he thought it was a good vote. I have a friend who is a bankruptcy lawyer - one of the good ones who really saves people's butts - who nearly broke down and cried when this passed.
I know a senator has to take tough stands sometimes over a long haul. But this one seems to boil down to one thing - carrying water for the corporations pretty much in direct opposition to his party. To me it shows who he is beholden to. And Gonzalez?? WTF? (Judge Gonzalez, I think your the real deal - I think that was his quote)

It's funny, I find Joe readily able to admit a mistake. Countless times he has admitted mistakes. The whole plagiarism issue being one.

I'm concerned that so many feel he is in the pockets of the banks...if so, where is his money. He doesn't seem to getting much support from them.

-Paige

Here's how it works (and everyone already knows this). If a politician is in the pockets of industry, they, in return, are allowed to dip into the pockets of that industry. And looking at it from the opposite view is equally true. If you've received lots of financial support from industry, then you are no longer afforded objectivity on legislative issues that deal with that industry.

Obviously, neither of these cases applies to Joe Biden, or else he'd have a lot more money, much of it coming from banks, particularly at a time when banks are in trouble and would very much love to get some inside help from Uncle Sam. Well, we all know which candidates have the big bucks, and it ain't Joe Biden. So when people want to complain about the financial influence of special interests, if they use Joe Biden as an example they are, at best, wrong. Otherwise, they are just trying to obfuscate some nasty truth about the candidate they're supporting.

Most likely Sen. Biden was doing 2 things: protecting jobs in his home state and that he truly believed, as I did, that the bankruptcy laws needed an overhaul. However, because the Republicans crafted the bill, the bill is going to have lots of problems, but it did some good thing too. When the other Party is in power you either make the occasional compromise in order to get something accomplished, or you just sit on your hands and wait. Biden is always trying to get something done for our nation, even if it means taking a circuitous route. He's not one for sitting on his hands.

I've told this story a couple of times already, so I'll give it here in an abbreviated version. I was in business with a guy who stole from me and our 3rd partner by pocketing money that was supposed to be going to our monthly expenses. He purposely ran up huge bills with several vendors until we were driven out of business. He filed for bankruptcy and walked away from it all with a nice sum of money in his wife's bank account and lots of new toys to play with financed by me, my partner, and those we were doing business with. This bankruptcy bill went into effect shortly afterwards and had it been in effect when this was going down, my former partner would not have been able to be granted bankruptcy status. It may not have prevented him from ripping me off, but it would have been a lot harder for him to get away with it all. Should there be exceptions allowed? Sure, but they should be the exceptions, otherwise, we should be responsible for our own financial decisions and not expect the tax payers to bail us out when we screw up, particularly when it's intentional. Sure, I'd love to be bailed out when I screw up, but I don't think it's right way to go about living our lives. I think responsibility and discipline are good things, not bad.

And before people start coming at me with, "what about when this or that happens to a person". As I've already said, there should be exceptions made for exceptional circumstances. I have no doubt what-so-ever that Joe Biden would also agree. If Sen. Biden becomes President Biden all the Democrats would have to do is write a new bill or amend the old bill and President Biden will sign it into law. Problem solved.

...and well thought out post. You helped to shed light on an issue that has been bothering me and others. Sometimes there is no easy answer...the medicine being worse than the disease.

Thanks so much...really do appreciate it.

-Paige

because that will occur. My problem is with those who continue on the same course irregardless.

just this morning I was doing research on the bankruptcy bill. What appears to disturb most people is the specific amendments which Biden voted against. As they're presented, these "nay" votes disturb me too.

I understand that he did insist on protection for single parents receiving child support, which is good so I do give him credit for that.

The information regarding the specific amendments is sparse. I've yet to find statements from Biden explaining why he voted against them.

It's more complicated than the usual blanket charge that he's in bed with the credit card banks (which I don't believe is accurate - but that's not the point here).

Ideally I would like to ask him, amendment by amendment, on why he voted as he did. Until (or if) I discover that info, I will give him the benefit of the doubt because he has always been a champion of the people and of those in need. I'm thinking there must be more to it than meets the eye, but to be excruciatingly honest, if that were the case I think more Dems would have voted the same way. If I find his reasons for voting on these specific amendments are questionable, then I'll need to reassess my opinion of him as a person.

(By the way, there were several "pro people" amendments which he did support, so it's not as though it was a broad "off with their heads" type of thing.)

This is the only issue about Biden which makes me uncomfortable. I understand the reaction and opinions regarding this, but until I learn more, I'm not prepared to dismiss him as my candidate. I'm convinced of his goodness and integrity, and he's the one person I feel would best be suited to help our country heal during this time.

If my memory serves me it was Amendment #112.

I learned 2 new Biden facts today :)

He was a little slow to really get tough on opposing the administration, I think he thought they would realize they had to change with the election. But I think he's finally got it now. The bankruptcy vote shouldn't be a make or break, it's just one vote in a long history of doing right by the people.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00003

Biden voted NO on Gonzales, and was one of the first to call for his resignation.

but yeah, there is sometimes lack of excitement for candidates who have been around forever. He deserves to be in the top tier, and I certainly would like him much better than Hillary.

Let's face it: the next Presidential term will be consumed by cleaning up the disaster of Bushco. Those candidates promising great positive change are not likely to be able to deliver. An older, experienced Washington veteran who is not easily intimidated (or influenced by political consultants) may be our best to get us through the next 4 years. And sanity brought to the arena of Foreign Policy would be a dream come true. Biden has those skills.

There are things I like about all of the top three contenders, but when anticipating the huge amount of crap each will receive if elected (like being blamed for innumerable messes begun during Bush's reign) I wonder if any one of them can stand up to it.

Lately Biden looks like the only candidate actually running against the Republicans. Edwards, Clinton, and Obama are running against each other. Yes, there is Biden's Iraq invasion vote, his bankruptcy bill vote, and his long-ago failure to prevent the confirmation of Clarence Thomas. So, he's not perfect. Nor are any of the others.

that's my slogan

and I'm convinced he is the right person for the mess that awaits the next president. He knows of what he speaks and doesn't speak from a script. It is just the way Joe is. He may put his foot in his mouth once in a while...who doesn't...but you are getting the real story as he sees it. Is that refreshing, or what?

We hold our candidates up to too high a standard when it comes to presentation and looks, words or gestures they accidentally make. I defy anyone to stand before a camera for all the hours these people do, and come out smelling like a rose, time after time after time. We aren't electing an actor...they did that once, you know...and that didn't turn out too well. I don't want a president who hasn't hit a few bumps in the road of life. We've all been there, done that. I want someone I can identify with and feel good about. That's Joe.

He's the right peg for the slot.

My father told me once that he would never hire anyone who hadn't failed at least twice in their lives. I was quite young at the time and I thought his comment was strange. He explained to me that only those that have failed have learned th hard-knocks of life (and survived). I hope that Joe's failures have made him stronger...he certainly has survived.

-Paige

I heartily concur with your post. The next POTUS won't have the luxury of a nice, quaint 4 - 8 years as our Commander in Chief. It will be hell and it will be a miracle if they can just manage to correct all the things Bush has screwed up. But it's not going to be easy and they will have to leave our country in a way that allows the next president to continue the healing. We need a tough realist and Biden is the toughest of the bunch and he doesn't believe in sugar coating.

And this is a very personal reaction to the man, from his first run for the presidency and in the intervening years, which I don't expect Biden supporters necessarily to consider. But I feel as adamant in not voting for him as you do in your support.

First, what you find to be an asset, his "outspokenness," I see as a liability. He simply does not have the presidential temperament, as I see it. Leadership, to me, demands boldness tempered with a measure of circumspection. Thinking aloud is not conduscive to the latter--and I cringe to think of how this could affect sensitive negotiations with foreign leaders or even advisors.

Secondly, he does not seem to be a good listener: he always has all the answers and solutions, and these answers are always his own. I am looking for a president, unlike the current one, who listens to all sides openly, makes measured judgments after long contemplation, and shares credit for policy broadly ... this is how policy gets implemented, not by lightning-bolts of personal insight imposed on others.

I've watched Biden for many, many years ... long, long discussions on the Charlie Rose show, for example. And every time I have cringed at his "bloviating." I'm really very sorry, but sometimes it boils down to simply finding a certain personality type grating. Add that to what I think have been some very poor judgments on very important subjects over the years ... and he is one of the first to have be xed off my list.

I don't get that with Joe, even when he's being absurd, because I see him as good-natured and sort of entertaining.

I cringe from Edwards, while some find him trustworthy. I recoil from Obama, and Hillary turns my stomach. And I value those reactions.

I suspect that at least half of candidate support (and opposition) is driven by such reactions. Of the top three I prefer Clinton, but I cannot even bear to watch her on TV.

So, since the top three all give me the creeps I look at the rest, and Biden gives me a sense that he may someday do something that works, and that I would not have thought of. I feel like his is actually following a coherent personal mental process, rather than just combining a series of position papers. And I don't see major policies differences between any of the non-Kucinich candidates... they are forced to create 'differences' for the sake of the campaign, but they're all on about the same page.

So I root for Biden.

I feel the same about Edwards - I like what he says, but he makes me uncomfortable - like I don't feel he is honest. (my gut)

Hillary annoys me - Obama - give him more time.

Biden, on the other hand, I could listen to him for hours and never get tired of what he has to say.

Biden seems unconcerned with projecting an image, which makes me a lot more comfortable with him than with those who are stiffly trying to look "Presidential".

I assume (rightly or wrongly) that Biden does not have a bunch of political consultants whispering in his ear all day. I believe political consultants are a big part of what's wrong with the American political system today, along with the media pundits who remind us constantly to focus on crap like which candidate we want to have a beer with. Biden seems to be outside this system, and is just being himself and running on his record and experience.

I agree with you that sometimes we run into people that for reasons that are not easily explained, rub us the wrong way. I think that you might have this sort of reaction to Joe Biden. The difference is that you gave some pretty good reasons. Let me comment.

Being outspoken can be a liability for some and an asset for others. And it's sort of strange, but I think he has the exact right temperament for "this time." His temperament may not be an asset in "normal" times. I simply don't see these times as normal.

Your second point brings up an issue of his ego. I think his ego makes him a better speaker than listener. However, I must disagree with you in that I do believe that Biden does listen. I think Joe is quite intelligent. Sometimes the best of ideas do come as lightening bolts (of inspiration). And I don't believe that Joe makes policy without careful consideration. We may just disagree here.

I think if you like Joe Biden, his long-winded responses don't seem like bloviating. I like watching his mind work on the fly...it's quite impressive. But once again, this may be a product of his ego. Joe Biden likes Joe Biden. I don't have a problem with that.

You gave me a couple of issues to think about.

-Paige

drew me to him initially, and what you consider liabilities are plusses in my book. I always get a kick out of that for some reason, regardless of the 'topic'.

We're lucky we have so many different candidates to choose from this time around. Good luck to you and your candidate, too!

:hi:

independent votes in the general election?

...I feel that he will gain popularity as over-exposure continues for the top tier. I think people will start looking for experience in these troubled times.

-Paige

The reasons I hear people give for not supporting Joe Biden are weak at best, imho, and seldom do they follow up on what their candidate did pro-active on the issue or issues they criticize Biden on. Personally, someone doing nothing on the sidelines doesn't exactly inspire my support.

I guess it boils down to this: you either embrace a candidate for their experience of which there will necessarily be bills supported, etc, that you don't agree with, or you prefer a candidate who has done very little of which, naturally, means there are no egregious legislative positions taken that you find offensive. If we weren't in such a critical fix like we're in right now I might be more inclined to support a newbie, but this is no time to prefer a roll of the dice to someone with proven integrity and intellect.

I think we're in more serious trouble that we recognize and the next president will either allow us to continue our downward spiral in a carefully choreographed, safe stewardship of our country or someone who will live or die by basing his decisions on what is truly best for our country at the risk of offending some people along the way. We currently have a rightwing zealot who has strong-armed us down a very dangerous road. We need someone tough but pragmatic to strong-arm us back on course to being a good, strong, and respected nation once again.

At the very least he doesn't have any advantages. He's from a small state in the NE. Any Dem would win it and that region. It also *may* hurt him in the south and parts of the west.

Still, none of that is insurmountable.

...that he would have these extra hurdles to get over.

-Paige

I was going to say it's an anachronism, except I don't believe there was a time it was ever appropriate.

On the bankruptcy bill he earned the "(D, MBNA)" that some put after his name. Sold us out big time.

Biden also snuck the Rave Act into the Amber Bill in the conference committee in the dead of night, so that nobody would have a chance to vote on it by itself.
The Rave Act had been brought up on its own a few times before, and had always attracted a lot of public input in opposition and been defeated.
All of this public participation in the political process was a nuisance to Biden, so he resolved to do an end-run around it with the conference committee.

And you wonder why it is so hard to get young people involved in politics, when people who are supposed to be on our side to this to us?!

...look in on this. I have no background or knowledge of this.

Thanks...

-Paige

but here are some links for you

http://www.emdef.org/s2633/

http://www.aclu.org/drugpolicy/raves/10671res20030911.html

What the ACLU says about the RAVE Act

"RAVE Act unfairly punishes businesses for the crimes of their customers. Businesses can be prosecuted even if they were not involved in drugs in any way - and even if they took steps to stop drug use on their property. The RAVE Act allows the government to impose a quarter million dollar fine by showing merely a "preponderance of the evidence" instead of the familiar, and much more protective, "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard that applies in criminal cases. The government can't even keep drugs out of its own prisons, yet it's seeking to punish business owners that can't stop their customers from using drugs.
*The RAVE Act threatens musical expression, free speech and the right to dance. Property owners, promoters, and event coordinators can be fined hundreds of thousands of dollars or face up to twenty years in federal prison if they hold raves or other events on their property. The RAVE Act chills free speech because promoters and venue-owners may cancel events for fear of prosecution. This has already happened in Billings, Montana, and reports of similar incidents have come from Alabama, California, Florida and New Mexico. Because of the RAVE Act, promoters and venue-owners may hesitate to hold hemp festivals, all-night dance parties, rock or Hip-Hop concerts, or any other event perceived as attracting drug users.
* The RAVE Act harms the very people it's meant to help. Fear of massive fines and prison sentences will drive raves and other musical events underground and away from public health and safety regulations. If selling bottled water and offering "cool off" rooms becomes proof that owners and promoters know drug use is occurring at their events, the RAVE Act will discourage harm-reduction measures, and the safety of our nation's youth will suffer."

Biden pushed this legislation through single handedly with 100% support from Reslugs. He was contacted and lobbied by people who worked within the dance music industry, the concert industry and totally ignored the advice he was given. The bill he pushed through was laughed out of committee stage a year earlier.

If Biden gets the nomination, there will be a massive grass roots campaign against the dems targeting anyone who has ever attended an electronic music event in the USA in the last 17 years. You may laugh at this prospect, but at one time, the electronic music scene was the envy of the world. When the RAVE ACT passed, there was a mass exodus of US artists and djs to Europe. There was also a boycott implemented by European artists in protest.

Biden cannot be trusted to listen to anyone, nor does he admit to his mistakes, sounds very similar to another current sitting president.

Peace

...that the Rave Act is troublesome at best. I was not aware of his leadership role in pushing this through.

Having said this, I disagree that Biden cannot admit mistakes. He has consistently admitted a variety of mistakes to include but not limited to the plagiarism issue.

-Paige

I might add that he has supported much more liberal issues related to rave activity. I suppose that one can say he is inconsistent at best.

-P

I normally get slammed for my Biden stance.

Were he to admit his mistake and try and reverse the legislation then I would certainly give him consideration, and I know many many people who feel the same way. Unfortunately, I am involved in the electronic music scene, the people who lobbied him were professional promoters, I believe the harm this bill did is immense, it enabled Bush and indirectly provided bodies for his illegal war, and he refused to listen, even when John Conyers withdrew his support for the legislation after reviewing the facts.

The issue in electronic music was never the drugs, it was all ages events. Had the RAVE Act made illegal all ages events then I believe many in the industry would have supported Biden, the reality is, it outlawed what for many people around the world is a way of life, it potentially makes you guilty of a crime by association, even if you are not in any way aware that a crime is being committed (i.e Flint Michigan Bust). Music and protest have gone hand in hand for generations, by effectively eliminating the music, you go a long way to eliminating the protest.

I have tried to discuss this but as always I get called a druggie, but the social impact of the RAVE Act will be felt for many years to come.

Peace

It is hard to imagine anything he could do for the dance scene that would make up for the damage done by the "Rave Act", but could you cite some examples?

He also believes in medical marijuana, and
he wants to get drug offenders out of the prisons; and wants lower penalties for drug offenses.

So why he may be tough in some areas, he is also reasonable in others.

http://www.issues2000.org/Domestic/Joe_Biden_Drugs.htm

is also known as "dime bag" Joe, and has used Biden`s legislation in Arizona to incarcerate 1000s of people in tent city. Saying you want to change things when your legislation has gone a long way to creating the situation in the first place, is somewhat hypocritical. This is my major beef with Biden, the R.A.V.E. Act was passed not because of the justness of the law, but because it was a trendy thing to do at the time. RAVES were the focus of public ire due to misinformed commercials and scare tactics (sounds familiar eh?)

1) The problem for parents were all Ages events - as I have stated these should never have been allowed to happen, to quote my boss, it is not someone`s constitutional right to get fucked up at the age of 11 - though I must admit if my dad had told me I couldn`t go out partying at 11 and i had, hmmmmm, I`d have been grounded for the rest of my life.

2) As had happened throughout Europe, dance music was subjecting closeted middle class white kids to what the Reslugs deemed "unsuitable" elements. Many of you would think I am talking about "drug dealers" and "perverts", however, whilst this was true, the reality was that dance music encompassed all races and sexualities. In the UK for example, my first exposure to "gay culture" was as a straight lad going to a club called Trade, and it forever effected me, in a positive way. In the US a similar culture revolution was happening, gay culture wasn`t deemed wrong by the majority of people under the age of 25, because they were dancing side by side with their "gay" brethren and sisters.

People as we all know hate things they are afraid of and don`t understand. The demonisation of the gay community in the USA by the religious right is well documented. All of a sudden, 10s of 1000s of straight and gay kids were coming together and dancing. This was a bigger threat to the religious right than many will admit to in public, but the large amount of "jesus against raves" sites that sprang up at the turn of the millennium demonstrates the fear that these bigots had.

Just a point

Peace

only to add this is the ONLY issue I have with Biden. it throws the guilt by association straight in our faces. as one of those who started the "RAVE" culture I couldn't agree more. We called them Keggers. then house party's, then raves. However just as you pointed out the All ages aspect of the "culture" is what ultimately brought on the hammer of the law. if the scene could have resisted the under 21 aspect, then raves would still be around. Weekly Keggers are a thing of the past Too. But still around. Squashing freedoms of the young, based upon fear and misunderstanding is nothing new.
However, Having grown up with out falling prey to addiction. (iv'e tried them all) I can say, aside from this ONE issue, Biden is still the best candidate of them all.

Why Should You Have to Be *21* to Dance? Just because that is the legal drinking age?
Who says you have to drink to dance?

The best that the dance scene in these parts has to offer are the all-weekend-long campouts.
Many people bring their kids to these. It is a beautiful thing. They are not developing the
inhibitions about dancing and movement in the first place that most of us have had to break down.
I don't think those kids will have any problems once they start attending raves on their own.

They aren't getting fat either. Dancing is very good exercise, and you don't see very many
obese ravers. Funny how the obesity "epidemic" showed up right around the time that the
authorities started cracking down on raves. Millions of kids who used to go out dancing are
now spending their evenings at home watching TV and getting fat.

RIDE THE MUSIC

Biden is an excellent choice. I've made my decision otherwise because I see domestic affairs equally as important as foreign affairs. I think many domestic problems have been neglected because of the distraction of the mess * and gang got us into. I'd like to see more attention to health care, education, fighting poverty, wresting power from corporations. I don't think Biden is the best person for tackling those issues.

Infact he has done some amazing things over the years.

http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Joe_Biden.htm

And he takes less money from corporations than the top 6 candidates on the dem side.

When I wrote down Foreign Affairs as my top priority, I knew that other priorities ran a very close second and that some would put domestic issues as their first. There is little doubt that so many domestic issues have been ignored because of what is going on in the FA arena. I happen to believe that Biden will also do well on the home front.

-Paige

who are presenting valid reasons for not supporting Biden. We all learn and grow by participating in this kind of forum. :headbang:

....is how we should conduct ourselves. All of these threads that bash the candidates is a waste of time and energy. I agree that we should be learning from each other. It can only make us stronger.

-Paige

You're going to make Erin nervous if you keep it up. j/k

You should send this to her as well.

Thanks...

-Paige

When I took that online test that was posted here, he even came up as my first choice!

He sure isn't getting any traction, though.

...take this test????

-Paige

I believe it's been linked at least twice here at DU, but I can't remember where.

losing their homes anyway, the credit card companies are no longer so frightening. If there is no money, there is no money.

He does not believe that a populist approach which focuses on economic inequality is useful, and he does not believe that class warfare exists in America.

Biden is a strong leader with lots of experience and knowledge. But he is not economically progressive, and that is a big problem for me.

Can you be more specific?

My take on what he's saying is that he doesn't believe in winning elections using the us and them argument. Karl Rove and company did it by pitting liberal against conservative. The Democrats tend to use the rich against the poor argument. Read the entire article carefully. These are the two examples he touches on. He doesn't believe in running a campaign on dividing Americans and he's afraid--and I've been expressing this same concern here lately--that Democrats haven't learned from the Republican train wreck that we're witnessing. We're libel to repeat the same mistakes that they made and before we know it, the pendulum will swing back their way. My way or the highway. It's our turn now. Time to end the Republican Party once and for all. This Rush-speak is not helpful and it goes nowhere. It should trigger a red flag in your head when someone resorts to it.

Instead of staying clear of some of their mistakes, we are finding some of their tactics too tempting to resist. Take Hillary planting specific questions for people to ask her so that she can spout off her impressively prepared answer. Remember Biden saying in the article that the candidates aren't trusting the American people? If a candidate truly had faith in the American people she or he wouldn't feel the need to trick them into thinking they--the candidate--are better than they really are by planting questions to be asked and replying with prepared answers, and in order for the candidate to trust the people, the people have to be able to trust the candidates. But stunts like question planting undermines that bond of trust. The candidates have to be honest with the people about who they are, what they think, and where they stand. It can be risky, but Biden lives by it, and his campaign may die by it, and that would be our loss.

If you look at Biden's record I think you'll come to see that he differentiates between waging class warfare and supporting legislation that helps the lower and middle classes. He believes in equity, in a level playing field. He believes in it because that's what's good for the country, not because it's necessarily better for any particular political Party. Historically, the country does better economically when the middle class thrives. Trickle down economics is a bust.

Bill Clinton was very similar in his thinking on this economic issue. He was not one to engage in class warfare rhetoric, but he restructured the tax code putting a greater burden on wealthier Americans while lightening the load for the rest of us. That's not warfare, it's just fair. Biden's sick of the divisiveness. He knows that it's really hurting this nation and that it's a greater obstacle to our country's best interests than most people realize. I think he's right. And he's the only candidate on either side who is really addressing the issue. Because it's not cool. It would be a lot easier to rally the masses with hyper, but meaningless, class warfare rhetoric. But I'm sick of being dishonestly misled.

Anyway, that's my take on the article. Equity is an important topic for me and I must admit that the class warfare rhetoric appeals to me as well, but my better, more cynical, intellect tells me that being actively progressive works best in America. After all, in which of those 2 groups, rich and poor, do the candidates belong, despite the fiery populist speeches? They're not going to bite the hand that feeds them. Biden has the least amount of money than all the candidates, both personally and almost the least in his campaign warchest. Yet he doesn't resort to playing on your emotions by rhetorically waging class warfare even though he is the candidate that is closest to the economic divide. It's because he trusts you and trusts your judgment. He's being honest. These are the kinds of nuances we should be weighing when deciding who to support in this election.

What I mean is, you'd be totally right except for one thing - some us believe that class warfare isn't just a wedge issue, it's the primary issue. That makes all the difference. Wedge issues can and should be ignored. But we can't ignore the actual fundamental issues that are threatening American democracy. For some of us, economic inequality is such an issue.

If so, than you won't be supporting any of these wealthy candidates. I believe they're all millionaires except Biden. I'm not sure about Kucinich.

That sounds kind of crazy. I am suggesting that we be aware of class dynamics in America and elect politicians who are also aware of them and willing to take measures that are in the interests of a majority of Americans, even if those politicians themselves are in a different economic class.

A great read and well thought out.

-Paige

...Educate me on this issue with regards to Biden. Can you specify?

-Paige

"I am, quote, liberal as it relates to social issues," he said. "But you've never heard me make a populist argument about the rich and the poor," a key aspect of the Edwards-Clinton-Obama approach. "I don't believe it, number one, and I don't think it's how you win.

"Rich folks are as patriotic as poor folks, but we (Democrats) don't talk that way," he said.

He doesn't believe in class issues, and he doesn't believe they should be talked about. He apparently does not recognize the perpetual screwing over of the poor and the middle class by the parasitic corporate class. He also apparently believes that rich people who sell out their nation and their countrymen for tax cuts they hardly need are as "patriotic" as anyone else.

I disagree, Joe.

Having said that, I still respect Biden's experience, leadership qualities, honesty, and intelligence. He is actually #3 on my list, behind Kucinich and Edwards (who do recognize class issues).

Clinton and Obama don't pay any attention to class issues, they just give it perfunctory lip-service. Only Edwards actually deserves the criticism he is trying to make.

and you can't have social justice without economic parity. What he's saying in this speech is that he doesn't believe in pitting American against American. You don't strike me as being so naive to believe our wealthy candidates when they do imply a class warfare struggle. If you divide us into rich and poor none of the candidates fall into the latter group, yet Joe Biden comes the closest since he hasn't accumulated a lot of wealth. Furthermore, those who are much wealthier than the candidates are, in large part, financing their campaigns. Biden's just more honest than the others. His speeches are more about the way things are and less about telling you whatever he thinks will please you. Frankly, I'm so tired of b.s. everywhere I turn that I welcome Biden's approach. It's so damn refreshing.

I also welcome Biden's honesty and respect it. But he doesn't have my vote as long as Kucinich and Edwards are in the race. Of these two, Kucinich is preferable because he has credibility in talking about class issues. Edwards says some admirable things, but I find it difficult to get past his own wealth and his huge mansion. In fact, his lack of consistency in that regard pushes me toward Biden somewhat, because Biden is practically broke in comparison.

I just listened to Sen. Biden's speech at the Democratic Fundraising Dinner in Des Moines. In part of his speech he did talk about the struggle of the working class. Spoke very forcefully but quite eloquently about the issues real people are discussing in their houses at night as he flies over them and sees the points of light in the darkness below. He knows that many are talking about how they are going to afford health care, higher education, or afford retirement. He elaborated on these issues and others including, of course, Iraq. He also talked about b.s.ing the American people and that he won't do it. He's just going to give it to us straight because he has faith in our ability to deal with it. Maybe we do, maybe we don't. It was good. Dodd's on now. It's interesting to watch these candidates in these situations. I wouldn't want to have to do it. I would babble foolishly until the big cane came out and pulled me off stage. And I'd be grateful for that.

and many interesting responses. Very civil discussion. I'll try and respond to some of the posts when I get a chance.

I just wanted to say before this thread fades away, how impressed I am at the civil discourse demonstrated here. If you read though this thread, you will note the absence of any trashing. I believe that this thread is an example of how we should discuss all issues. I learned a lot and I hope that others learned as well. Thanks for making it a pleasant as well as an educational read.

-Paige

In these troubled and dire time we live in, Joe Biden, to me, encompasses all that we desperately need for our nation:

1) Intelligence
2) Experience in ALL phases of government
3) Strength
4) Respect from world leaders
5) Diplomacy
6) Command of issues
7) Solutions to problems that face our nation
8) Honesty
9) Integrity
10) Respect and trust from his peers
11) Respect and trust from the people who follow him
12) an EXPERT in foreign policy

Joe Biden certainly meets ALL of the criteria above.

I pray and hope every day that Mr. & Mrs. America, the people of Iowa, New Hampshire, and South Carolina know in their hearts, that if we lose Joe Biden, we'll have lost one of the best Presidents our nation will ever have.

Please watch a video I produced to show my support for Senator Biden. If you support him, please send the link below to family and friends, and ask them to do the same.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OtGCaqOdIJ4

...And I completely agree with you list of qualifications. While I appreciate that others will lend their support to other candidates. For myself, I cannot imagine voting for anyone other than Joe Biden. He is the total package.

Thanks for your post.

-Paige