"Now voters will judge whether living in a foreign country at the age of ten

prepares one to face the big, complex international challenges the next president will face. I think we need a president with more experience than that." Hillary just said that about Obama. Bad move, Hillary. Who's slinging the mud?

And Obama replied already.

or "You didn't seem to have a problem with 'lack of experience' when your husband ran for president in '92."

Comparing the experience of Bush and Cheney to the experience of Hillary Clinton in a successful presidential administration - experience Obama has given her credit for - is silly.

it has nothing to do with "success." It has to do with the claim of "experience" being a plus. Thankfully, in IA, people prefer change to experience 55% to 33%. :hi:

Truth is, the notion that living in a foreign country at the age of ten prepares one to face the big, complex international challenges the next president will face is kind of stupid.

Obama has done way more than live in a foreign country. But that DID give him a unique experience.

Seymour Hersh thinks that makes Obama the best presidential candidate.

Barack Obama represents "the only hope for the US in the Muslim world," according to Pulitzer-prize winning investigative
reporter Seymour Hersh. Because Obama's father was a Muslim, he "could lead a reconciliation between the Muslim countries
and the US." With any of the other candidates as president, Hersh said, "we're facing two or three decades of problems in the
Mideast, with 1.2 billion Muslims."

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/?pid=252300

Hersh is the reporter that broke both the My Lai massacre and Abu Ghraib torture stories to the world, so his opinion carries
no small amount of weight.

That's a great compliment for Obama! :hi:

:hi:

:hi:

in the Clinton Administration."

She was the FIRST LADY, for Pete's sake! Yes, probably more powerful than some who preceded her, but THE FIRST LADY nonetheless, not a Cabinet member. I'm REALLY getting tired of her overemphasis on her "experience." (Does pillow talk count? Did they even sleep in the same bed most of the time?)

"She's very smart ... people rightly give her credit for having been a participant in the Clinton administration and for doing some heavy lifting on issues." Barack Obama, speaking of Hillary Clinton's White House experience and contradicting Obama supporters - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart 8/22/07

The point being made is that Obama is short on international expertise. There's no 'mud'--lies, smears, what-have-you--in that statement

Obama can counter that easily. Jimmy Carter didn't have a boatload of international experience, either. I'd not mention Bush if I were him, though, because that wouldn't help his argument (actually, Bush summered in Scotland and travelled to Mexico as a young man, I think).

In order for someone to 'toss mud' it has to be false info, designed to smear. This is really a device of language she is using. You can argue with her conclusion, but her facts aren't at issue.

State visits as First Lady? :shrug:

will often 'carry water' on those mindless and fluffy state visits, especially the ones where their husband isn't accompanying. On the odd occasion, the fluffy visit is cover for more serious meetings, which sometimes occur between the US and 'not officially friendly' third-party nations.

In the case of Laura, I'm sure a State Department factotum did/does the heavy lifting, but in the case of Clinton, I would not be so sure.

That said, if Obama wanted to take your tack in response, by suggesting that her visits had little meaning, nothing is stopping him. It might be a dangerous route, though--remember the headlines she made in China and Africa on women's issues?

You might not like her comments, but it's really not accurate to call them mud.

but that's just me. :)

politics is...

:eyes:

when they criticize her positions.

This statement, FWIW, is not true, for those who are "slow on the uptake."

Barack Obama is in the pockets of Big Oil!! His campaign is completely tied up with BIG OIL!!!

That's slinging mud. Now, when someone picks the statement apart, and says "NO, he's not excessively entangled with the oil industry; you've just lied, you've just slung some MUD!" the person making the accusation says "Well, he's a clean coal advocate, and there's a process that can extract OIL from coal!!!" Then, the rebuttal is "Well, that's TOTAL mud, because you've misrepresented his association completely--clean coal is NOT big oil."

See, that's slinging mud, when you MISREPRESENT.

Clinton, like her or not, did not misrepresent. Now it's up to Obama to rebut, if he cares to.

As for "slinging mud" when a Clinton position is criticized, that's not true either. Two wrongs aren't making a right, here--unless someone shops a LIE about her particular position, and falsifies it, (e.g. Hillary believes aborted baby parts should be sold for profit) then that's not mudslinging, either.

To sum up: Telling the truth is not mudslinging. Pointing out truth is not mudslinging.

Misrepresenting a position or occurence can be mudslinging, if it is done to damage a candidate. Telling a flat-out lie can be mudslinging as well.

it's slinging mud as much as the others are "slinging mud"

when they criticize her positions.

seen positions mainly MISREPRESENTED by partisans, no matter which candidate they're talking about.

That's mudslinging, but if the position is represented accurately, it isn't.

Hillary shouldn't accuse anyone of slinging mud, because they've only pointed out her positions that they disagree with.

t's not a novel qualification.

just sayin'

I've spent close to half my life outside my native land. As I get older, the percentage shrinks, because I'm not planning on doing any heavy moves in the future...!

Turns out Bush visited ELEVEN countries before he became President...can you believe that?

It sure didn't help him much!!! I posted a link to the details on this list downthread!

Bermuda
Canada
China
Egypt
England
France
Gambia
Israel
Italy
Mexico
Scotland

but it's not.

Just sayin'.

:eyes:

But yeah, I think Obama's statement about how living in another country is different than going on a senate visit replete with visit to a local school and native dances brings up a critical point: Obama knows how people LIVE in other countries. He's seen it firsthand.

He likely didn't learn much, but he DID travel.

Taco y cerveza, por favor!

Ah, I found a link: http://www.google.com/answers/threadview?id=427087

Subject: Re: Countries visited by George W. Bush in his lifetime, prior to becoming President
Answered By: pinkfreud-ga on 10 Nov 2004 10:07 PST
Rated:
George W. Bush has never been much of a traveler. Before he assumed
the Presidency, his only major forays abroad were to Mexico, Israel,
and China. He made brief visits to a scattering of other countries.

"Bush's foreign travels have been limited to three visits to Mexico,
two trips to Israel, a three-day Thanksgiving visit in Rome with one
of his daughters in 1998 and a six-week excursion to China with his
parents in 1975 when his father was the U.S. envoy to Beijing."

http://quest.cjonline.com/stories/121600/gen_1216007443.shtml

A quote from CNN's Walter Rodgers:

"George W. Bush had only visited Mexico, Israel and China before
becoming president, and that was never an issue."

CNN Student News: Judy Woodruff's Inside Politics
http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/17/ip.00.html

"Critics often describe Bush as 'incurious' about the world, but that
word hardly does justice to what feels almost like a principled
provincialism. Here was someone who by age 13 was mingling in the
country-club set of Houston, who then went on to Andover, Yale and
Harvard Business School -- and did so in the age of cut-rate
international air fares -- and yet he rarely traveled abroad. Bush was
in his mid-20's when his father became ambassador to the United
Nations, and still he stayed home. He must have had to resist actively
his parents' blandishments. He visited China in 1975, when his father
was U.S. liaison; Gambia, at President Bush's behest, in 1990; and the
Middle East in 1998, when he had begun thinking about his own run for
the presidency. (He also traveled to Europe several times in the 90's
with the Young Presidents' Organization, a group for corporate
executives.)

People close to Bush dismiss his past as irrelevant; he has, they say,
both the experience and the character to direct the affairs of the
free world. Condoleezza Rice argues that as governor of Texas, Bush
gained a familiarity with foreign affairs from his dealings with
Mexico. 'He has on-the-ground experience there,' she says, 'which I
would say is much more valuable than if he had been attending seminars
at the Council on Foreign Relations for the last five years.' Rice
also turns the insularity argument on its head, arguing that the
president-elect 'comes at this as an American with very, very American
values.' These arguments seem reassuring mostly to Bush's own allies.
Many Europeans, for example, see the president-elect as an
all-American boob."

Magazine, 14 January 2001]

Mount Holyoke College
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/traub.htm

According to Bush staffers, George W. Bush had visited these countries
before becoming President:

Bermuda
Canada
China
Egypt
England
France
Gambia
Israel
Italy
Mexico
Scotland

"George was not exactly what you would call well-traveled. Campaign
staffers claimed that he had taken 'more than a dozen' trips outside
the U.S...

Bush made a month-long excursion to China while his father was
stationed there, which the New York Times summed up as 'trying to date
Chinese women (unsuccessfully) during a visit to Beijing in 1975.' He
had visited Israel and Egypt with the National Governors Association,
and also the African country of Gambia. Later on in the campaign, Bush
staffers claimed that he has also visited England, Scotland, and
Italy, as well as vacationed in France and Bermuda. This was not very
impressive to the people of Europe, who have to cross international
borders just to take their kids to Legoland."

Rotten.com: George W. Bush
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/presidents/george-w-bush/

Google search strategy:

Google Web Search: "george w bush" president "trips outside the us"
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22george+w+bush%22+president+%22trips+outside+the+us%22

Google Web Search: "george w bush" "before becoming president" "outside the us"
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22george+w+bush%22+%22before+becoming+president%22+%22outside+the+us%22

I hope this is helpful. If anything is unclear, please request
clarification; I'll be glad to offer further assistance before you
rate my answer.

Best regards,
pinkfreud

(or not screwing the President, as the case may be), and hosting state dinners attended by foreign dignitaries, provides overwhelming foreign policy experience that blows everyone else out of the water.

Except, well, other candidates can appoint cabinet members and aides who know much of the same crap as Hillary would. Who's who and what's that. It's not astrophysics. That's why Presidents have advisors.

And some even listen to them.

"screwing or not screwing the President". :puke:

I guess the polls aren't looking so good right now.

she's clearly worried.

with both Joe Biden and Bill Richardson running against them, IMO.

unless she wins the nomination, but she's right. Obama does not have enough experience. I don't think he has a clue as to the mess he would have to clean up. Nor how to do it. I remember last president I thought didn't have enough experience.....we're still living that nightmare...

he sure had the judgement to rightly predict what would happen if we invaded Iraq.

As does Rumsfeld, Rice, and the rest of the merry band o' Neocons. Some kinds of experience we don't need. And Clinton has demonstrated her willingness to go along with the neocons on more than one occasion.

More bickering between Obama and Hillary. Edwards the de facto benefactor! Keep the bickering up.

Hillary and Obama aren't high enough on my radar for me to tune in to the flame wars. I only stopped in here because I'm tired of having to "hide" all of them. I thought I'd click on one today.

For the record, I just mildly disagreed with a candidate that still at least has a marginal position on my table, in support of one who is off the table with no hope of return.

I'm not going to get into all the mudslinging and flamewars going on between the annointed "top 3;" I'm not voting for any of them, so what would be the point?

I can't even run for president, since I lived there at ten minutes too (although as a fat average height non photogenic atheist I'm not exactly a campaign coordinator's dream even without the native birth requirement). Strange what is seen as important either way some times.

Just a couple of months ago. 'nuff said. It disgusts me.

gives creidt to bush for being experienced. DAMN! Bush did not travel outside the united states did he? Now Obama says he is more experienced becasue at age 10 he was living in a foreign country. DAMN! If that is the case then hell HRC should be a shoo in because she has got a lot of frequent flyer miles for all the countries she has visited. And not only visited but spoke to the leaders of those countries and then almost started a riot in China when she said all woman should have basic human rights. Any of you Obama folks remember that? I doubt it.....

Oh I am so happy for all of you. You get one poll that gives Obama a 4 point lead and like you are saying, it's all over but the shouting. Oh come on people. If I had 12 polls and in 11 HRC is leading in all but one I sure as hell would not bet the farm that obama was the nominee. And this notion you all are crying when Bill campaigns for her. Well excuse me but if you going to be critical of Bill then be critical of Mrs edwards, hell be critical of Mrs Obama.....What? Bill cannot campaign for his spouse like the other spouses are doing?

I am sure when HRC wins the nomination sometime between 2/5 and 2/15 08 many people will feel comfortable knowing that the best President in their life time is close by to give her help.

Ben David

lots of it. And look what he did with it.

It's good to see Obama using this against her. This will move the ball even further in Iowa too.

Everything they're both doing seems to make him more popular and her less popular.

Welcome to the DU! :hi:

That's what I'd say if I were Obama. Because Obama has got more experience as a legislator than Clinton.

Oh, and when is Bubba going to release those WH papers he slapped a hold on until 2012?

Hmmm....

and good point...she wants to run on "experience" that she wants to keep secret.

beyond fucking up healthcare reform in the one and only time she played President For A Day
and cursing Bill out for his Oval Office cigar fun.

lol

why does ANYONE still support her???

What can we expect from a candidate who has a POLLSTER (and Blackwater PR rep Mark Penn) for a campaign
manager? What a joke!

As for her support, there's evidence that it's wide and shallow -- as indicated by her monthlong downward
trending in both Iowa and NH. The strength of the "experience meme/Clinton name" Kool-Aide is wearing
off just in time for a real dogfight on Jan. 3.

In the meantime, Obama is first among equals according to the latest comprehensive poll of likely Iowa caucus
goers, the ABC/Washington Post poll.

"It's 44 days until the Iowa caucuses and Obama is moving up fast." ~ David Schuster on Hardball, today

Bless those Iowans.

everything you just said. And there's breaking news that Oprah will be campaigning for Obama in IA and NH! :D

Oprah will be a major factor in putting Obama over the top with WOMEN, which make up 60% of likely Iowa caucus
goers. According to the ABC/Washington Post poll, he's moved into the lead as a first among equals over Clinton
among women already, 32% -31%.

Hillaryworld must be crying into their Kool-Aide cups over it as we type. They thought hubby Bill would be such a
magnetic draw on the campaign trail but his biggest crowds have been less than Obama's largest. Now, they have
OPRAH to contend with.

lol

I LOVE it! Right now he's BEATING Hillary among women by 1%. Oprah, being a WOMAN, who is also Black, will go right into Hillary's base! I wonder how Hillary's camp will spin this into being a rookie mistake or something... :D

So far, Iowans aren't buying what they're peddling. They're too smart to buy into smut. Novak didn't
pan out as expected, that's for sure.

Just wait until Oprah hits South Carolina... where the Democratic demographic is 60% black and mostly
female. Ooh la la.

Hillaryworld must be desperately trying to line up celebrity supporters to campaign with them right now.
I wonder who it will be -- Rupert Murdoch, maybe?

lol

This is getting interesting! And FUN! Maybe Hillary will try to get Bill Cosby?

I didn't know he was still alive, for example. Maybe in South Carolina, but compared to Oprah? Nah.

There is no one Hillaryworld can get that can hold a candle Oprah and any attempt to try will look lame to
Iowans' perceptive eyes. The best they've got is her hubby... and he's not much for credibility, given his
swift boat and "the boys roughed her up" cards fell flat as a pancake with the general public and media
(minus the Clinton Kool-Aide drinkers here and elsewhere).

Yes, this is getting interesting and fun -- especially now as it seems Obama is beginning to peak at the
right time.

of course it ain't gonna happen, though, anyway.

I can't wait to wake up every day just to see how the race is going. :D

They'll probably try to overshadow Oprah's coverage with some "big news" splashed on Drudge's front page.

I'm thinking of spending a couple weeks of vacation time in Iowa leading up to Jan. 3 - that's how psyched I am.
It's a good thing I like cold weather.

they probably will announce some big endorsement or something, but her tactics will be transparent and it will backfire.

Wow-Iowa in Jan.? Have fun!! :)

years can help shape your opinions, and think about how young kids inhale different experiences, be they religions, peoples, languages, whatever. I was never so fortunate to live outside the US as a youngster, but I am quite sure his experiences in a different culture as a child have shaped his world view, and that has got to be a good thing.

by the time I was ten I was a musician, poet, sensitive to prejudice and very much against it, and an all-around aware human being. :)

even the CNN big fat kiss to her didn't help!

Iowa and New Hampshire.

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle inexperienced.

she thinks being first lady makes her prepared and experienced even though she won't release her documents from "her" time in the WH.

(Very clever line there!) :rofl:

is the enormous positive impact that Obama would have on our image in the world. "President Obama," now this is a powerful concept, don't you think? A Kenyan-American who spent several years in Indonesia, and many weeks in his father's homeland understanding his African roots (read Dreams from my Father if you're at all curious about the quality of this particular international experience).

Of course, this is all reduced by Hillary to "time spent abroad as a ten-year-old." Being an American who has never lived overseas makes it easier for her to approve such yahoo drivel, but many thoughtful people understand the value of Obama's background and upbringing are excited about what it could mean for America and its relationship to the rest of the world. Seven years after the 9/11 attacks, we elect a president whose middle name is Hussein...that takes vision and openness. And much of the rest of the world, including many people who don't even take us seriously anymore, will see a symbol of our global citizenship that will fundamentally change our image on this earth for the better.

What you said. :thumbsup:

:evilgrin:

that she's full of it.

In her infamous "Take that, Venezuela!" speech, Hillary said that the Venezuelan people did not share "our" values.

Is there any video of her with that statement? I'd love to see it. I want to see the fear in her eyes.