Prayerful, my ass. I've had an abortion

and the minute I knew I was pregnant, I knew I was going to have an abortion. I felt no need to pray over it for one second either before or after.

I like Obama, but I wish he'd stop swaddling things in christo-speech. I actually find it offensive to be told that women are prayerful over the decision to have an abortion. While some certainly are, many of us aren't. And he completely leaves women who aren't religious and have abortions out of his equation.

Obama used christo-speech to defend your right to have an abortion to a hostile audience. And all you do is piss all over him.

Lame.

Even awesomer.

Frankly, I lost a LOT of respect for him, based both on the statement- and the appearence, which simply legitimizes a far right fundamentalist group that OUGHT to be relegated back to the fringe where they belong (and where they would be in ANY other Western nation).

Pandering is telling people what they want to hear.
I suspect that the vast majority of 700 club watchers who are looking for a reason to support Obama are not hoping to hear him say that he is pro choice or that he believes a woman would ever pray about abortion.
They just want to hear him say "I am opposed to abortion because God says it is wrong." That would be pandering.

the 700 club and related forums held by the christian wingnuts. And I'd much rather that they didn't feed the religious objections to abortion by such comments. And that's exactly what I did. If you think his remarks convinced anyone that believes that abortion is murder and that Christian belief mandates it be outlawed, you're likely to be disappointed.

In fact, many of them are sick of nothing but weekly anti-abortion speeches (even if they remain staunchly opposed) and would like to see more relevance from their church. Many of the same people who you brand wingnuts because of their stance on abortion are antiwar and sick of being screwed economically. The younger ones also don't want to waste their time on gay marriage referendums. Obama is the only candidate with a plan to reduce their objections to the Democratic Party and expand the reach of our message to voters that have always tuned us out.

Here, broaden your horizons a little bit, it won't hurt:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/us/21evangelical.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Even awesomer.

Is it because it's "Chuck" night?

I like Obama, if he's the candidate, I'll gladly vote for him, but I don't like seeing our candidates buying into the Christian right's arguments by appearing on their TV broadcsts.

And I read that article when it came out. I'm not slamming all evangelicals- I've been known to defend them, but I am slamming Pat Robertson and his "ilk".

Don't like it? how sad for you and your "ilk".

of going on the 700 Club, which is to tell the nation the role that faith plays in their lives. We can't avoid this American reality (much as I, a highly skeptical agnostic, would prefer). Obama knows how to relate to believers in their language and defend progressive values at the same time. It's a skill that has been almost totally lacking in our party and one we should encourage, not turn away from.

A doctrinaire approach to faith and evangelicals is the last war...they are becoming less predictable in their beliefs and so should we in how we relate to them. Kudos to Obama for understanding that reality.

women. and it's buying into the fundy frame. it's that simple.

He has a different than Pat Robinson and voiced that difference. He didn't buy into the Christian right's argument. Pat Robinson says don't have an abortion, period.

Wes Clark and Chris Dodd didn't necessarily legitimize Fox by appearing on that network. They exposed them.

And Obama didn't expose anyone. He legitimized going on the 700 Club, and he said abortion was OK because women make "prayerful" decisions. That leaves me out. Am I somehow less moral because my decision to have an abortion wasn't aided by prayer? Please.

If he said abortion was ok that is not legitimizing the 700 club. So because he said people make prayerful decisions and you choose not to prayer you have decided to throw out what he said. This makes no sense.

Whether you are less moral or not has nothing at all to do with prayer. There are many immoral people who regularly pray.

more obvious. How in the world can you not see that?

Those religious groups(like Pat Robinson) believe abortion is forbidden even with prayer. They don't believe there are any circumstances where abortion is ok.

about abortion is undeniably using a religious frame. How can you say that it's not???

If you choose to have an abortion and not pray about doesn't mean you are any more or less moral than anyone else. As I said, there are people who regularly pray who lead very immoral lives. Prayer is not a gauge to determine who's moral.

Just because Obama said he hopes people would approach it prayerfully is simply his opinion. If he is a Christian he probably hopes people would pray for all sorts of things. I didn't read where he proclaimed aby condemnation on those who choose not to pray.

Oh, wait. I got that saying wrong.

Sorry...got carried away in the moment...lol.

if only they pray enough.:eyes:

Fuck all these crypto religious assholes! We have all been force-fed enough of religion in politics with the current pReisdent. I don't want any president who embraces religious crazies.

Assuming they are bad people is exactly what is wrong with the whole "war on terror" concept. That is how we got into and are stuck in Iraq.

Operating on us\them assumptions keeps us from moving forward.

Just don't act like a wimp and cave to their whims. Be the voice of dissent on these issues there.

I find the whole christo-speak offensive, I don't care what he's advocating. Keep religion out of politics. I don't give a fuck what a candidate's religion is. I do care about their integrity & honor & those can be addressed without religious references.

exactly. Keep religion out of politics.

It takes introspection on the woman's
part, thought and consideration.

I think Obama is pushing his Christianity
in an attempt to get some of 'that' vote.
Especially in Iowa, it sure helped Hucksterbee
out.

He's acknowledging what a large % of the electorate already believe -- that the decision to make that choice is not a cakewalk.

Who fucking cares what he thinks about how women come to a decision? Really. Why would anyone give a shit?

Obama is getting sucked into the religious argument about abortion. It's a right that has nothing to do with religion.

and should have nothing to do with religion. But I dont believe Obama would legislate one based on the other. Do you? Maybe the point he was making was that religious people have abortions too. :shrug: Obviously not every woman is prayerful, Im sure as hell not.

Why would a political candidate be dictating how women should come to such a private decision?It's non of his business.

Is he proposing some sort of mandatory pre-abortion prayer time? No. So is he dictating how the decision is reached?

why would any Dem candidate use a qualifying term like "prayerful" when describing a womans private thought process as to terminating a pregnancy?It's legal and should stay that way,his opinion on a woman's reasoning,coming from a presidential candidate, smacks of paternalism.

It's nice to see more people catching on.

And were denounced as fundamentalist atheists.

increased on a weekly basis.

party, have to stoop to pandering in order to get votes. Neither religion nor abortion has any place in electioneering. Running for office has become such a farce.

Why in the world is so difficult for some people to understand that he's trying to make CHOICE appealing to the FUNDIES???

Gosh, it's more than obvious that those who want to throw dirt at Obama will use any possible excuse.

Sorry, linking prayer and abortion, is not a good idea.

And you know damn fucking well, I don't throw dirt at Obama. This is something that genuinely bothers me. As does his appearing on the FUCKING 700 CLUB!!!

And Obama is not above criticism. Get over it.

Enough of the GOP dominance over the Christian community in this country. It's time to show them they do have a viable alternative in the Democratic Party.

Obama did the right thing and expressed himself properly on the 700 Club.

pandering to them is despicable. I don't want to be aligned with the 700 Club. They probably wouldn't want me in the same room with them, anyways. Though they say they would "pray for me".

was PANDERING! :hi:

even if you don't agree with it. Hillary is a pro at that. Obama wasn't pandering. He was giving his honest position to a crowd that disagrees with him. That's not pandering. That is campaigning.

And what is the big deal anyway? It's not like he was demanding that people should pray or anything.

I would disagree with your dismissal of the spiritual aspects of abortion.

Not being a woman, I've never had an abortion. However, I was directly involved as the partner of a woman, and we agonized together to come to a decision about having it done.

It does force one to confront their basic beliefs about the nature of life and spiritual values. There is no way around it.

If you are firm enough in your own beliefs about the nature of life and the place of abortion within that, then you were able to make a decision without that struggle.

However, it is not that clearcut for many other people. So questions about when life begins, if there is a purpose for an unborn child, etc. do inevitable raise spiritual issues.

It doesn't really matter if you call that struggle being 'prayerful" or not, it is a very real aspect of abortion for many people -- regardless of whether they are religious or not.

and I don't think it should be. And not all women agonize over whether to have an abortion. I've spoken of this with dozens of women who had abortions, and I'd say the strong majority did not agonize over it.

Think about it like if you were talking to a child. You use certain terminology and style to get your points across.

me. I'm much more likely to vote for Obama than Clinton or Edwards, but I still find this disturbing. I'm so sick of the religious nose in the secular tent of government.

that the best way to combat it's intrusion is to make the idea of religious intrusion UNAPPEALING to religious people...

But the difference there is more semantic.

I agree with you, however, that I am tired of religious language being injected into everything.

I believe, for example, we should deal on a progressive basis with issues like poverty, injustice etc. on a secular basis, simply because it's the right thing to do. If some people or candidates want to put a religious overlay on that in their own mind, that's up to them. But it should not be imposed on the rest of us on any religious basis.

Regarding abortion, I've known a number of women who did have to struggle with it on that deeper basis, regardless of their religious beliefs or non-beliefs. That's why I wish peope like Obama would substitute words like "soul-searching."

equate "prayerful" with "thoughtful." I mean, I've never said "Oh, what a prayerful gift that is!" or "That sure was a prayerful thing they did."

Also it is disingenuous to claim "Oh, he was only talking to the 700 Club." Nothing politically is said in a vacuum.

In other words...K&R!

thanks for the k&r.

Prayerful doesn't necessarily mean praying:

prayer·ful (prer′fəl)

adjective

1. given to frequent praying; devout
2. like or expressive of prayer

http://www.yourdictionary.com/prayerful

Now, who's being ludicrous again?

and "praying."

Yeah, sorry I seem to be assigning a prayer/praying definition to "prayerful."

2. Earnest, sincere.
(Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary)

And they watch the 700 Club. He was using the colloquialisms of his audience.

I am one of those who hate widespread xospeak in politics. However, in a church or to a church group, it doesn't bother me.

It bothered me when W inserts it into the State of the Union address. It did not bother me when Bill Clinton used it while talking at various churches.

do it (I only mention them because they seem to be brought up about this the most).

http://livingroomcandidate.movingimage.us/election/index.php?ad_id=906

Religion and progressive values, together. It's possible.

an election. He is going to attempt to appeal to get a meaningful number of votes.

He wasn't summing up his entire position on abortion on the 700 club, he was framing his response in a way that would get the audience to think about the issue from a different perspective. Why are people shitting on him for this?

I don't like the mix of politics and religion. And I don't like dem candidates going on Robertson's show.

I don't care if politicians discuss there religion, or uses religious language to get their message across to a religious audience.

will always be mixed in our society. It's only a matter of who does the mixing, and how.

Newsflash: Evangelicals exercise their right to VOTE. I would have been pissed had Obama gone on the show and moderated his position for his audience to pander for votes (like some other Democrats whose names will go unmentioned). He did not do that. The guy walked onto the program and gave his position to an audience, for the most part, who disagree with him on his position on abortion in an attempt to dialogue, and yes, (OMG) perhaps get some of their votes by showing himself to actually have given some thought to his position. He never lumped all women who have had abortions together in how they deal with the decision. But, I dare say that more women than not, who have had abortions gave their decision quite a bit of "prayerful (gasp)" consideration before making that choice.

I'm not voting for Obama. But, I'm not going to throw him under the bus for THIS. My, how forgiving you are of politicians like Leahy who go back on their promises to us than you are of one who gives an honest opinion using an adjective that doesn't fit your belief system.

Typical cali.

women and abortion. typical arrogant male crap to say:

"He never lumped all women who have had abortions together in how they deal with the decision. But, I dare say that more women than not, who have had abortions gave their decision quite a bit of "prayerful (gasp)" consideration before making that choice."

You have no fucking way of knowing that. I'm so sick of hearing the shit about how women agonize and pray over having an abortion. For many of us, it's a damn easy decision. Got a problem with that? Do you want us to agnonize or pray over it. Well, fuck that. I've known dozens of women that feel exactly the same way. And there are thousands if not millions more of us. And if that makes us "bad" or "immoral", just suck on it.

bringing your bete noir, Senator Leahy into the argument, doesn't help you.

typical arrogant rateyes.

who fuck you are talking to, and don't know what the hell you are talking about.

In my line of work, I deal with situations like this all the damned time. You, cali, and your decision making process is not typical for ALL women. You said in your post that you had an abortion and knew the moment that you found out you were pregnant that you were going to have one.

Guess what? I'd be willing to be my eyeteeth that, before you got pregnant, that you had already formed an opionion about abortion (after giving it quite a bit of "thoughtful" consideration), and had already made the "thoughtful decision" that should you become pregnant in the circumstances in which you became pregnant that you would have an abortion.

What you call "thoughtful" others might call "prayerful." Newsflash: Most people in this country believe in a supreme creator (God.)

If, though, I am wrong...and you gave absolutely NO THOUGHT beforehand to what decision you would make given your circumstances, and just made a snap decision when you found out you were pregnant without giving it ANY "thoughtful" consideration, then bully for you.

I never told you or any other woman that they had to "pray" about any decision they have to make. But, I'm sure as hell not going to piss on those who do.

You come off, on this issue, as "fundamentalist" in your "thought patterns" as are the fundy Christians in theirs.

The common characterization in fundamentalist media is that they try and paint women who have abortions as irresponsible sluts who just have abortions to continue leading some kind of hedonistic satanic lifestyle, or some other offensive misogynistic nonsense similar to this. Obama was trying to counter that by saying that he trusts women to make their own choices. He used the word prayerful, because of the audience for the interview, but he could have easily replaced it with thoughtful or informed.

Thank you.

it's so much better to stay in our cocoons, screaming at the top of our lungs about how we see the world and how we think things should be to the people who see and think just like us. Any effort to step outside of our our little bubble and actually talk to someone who doesn't see everything exactly as we see it is pandering and, as such, is a betrayal of our beliefs. We don't need to try to teach or enlighten - we will convince people to join us by yelling at them from our side of the wall.

Get it?

:sarcasm:

have it your way. I don't like all the religiosity in politics. And you don't have to go on the TV show of one of the leading Christofascists to "reach out".

My abortion experience was similar to yours, actually. I didn't think about it or pray about it. But I think his "prayerful" talking to Christians is something like "thoughtful" talking to seculars. I know a lot of women who have had abortions and I did abortion counseling in the early 70s; some of the women thought, some of the women prayed, but none made an easy decision.

Calling it "reaching out" (pandering) doesn't negate the problem of his ease of floating from politcal issues to religious issues and back. That, to me is troubling.

If I want to hear a preacher, I'll go to church. Likewise, I don't want preachers to spout government policy.

Which is precisely what Obama was talking about.

He trusts women to make these choices for themselves.

And for those that have labeled this pandering, Obama is maintaining his pro-choice stance without breaking a sweat in the face of a traditionally hostile audience to abortion.

That is precisely the opposite of pandering.

and I know dozens of women that knew immediately when they had an unwanted pregnancy that they wanted an abortion.

And I never said he was pandering. I don't like the mixing of religion into the abortion debate. period. it really is that simple. And yes, I know Obama is pro-choice.

of what they would do in the event of an unwanted pregnancy well before,or even if, they have to make that decision. I don't imagine there are very many adult women who have not considered their opinions on abortion ,some mix their religious beliefs into that mix,some do not. It's certainly not a presidential candidates place to hope all women consider the religious implications of their choice,using the word"prayerful"does exactly that.

And, yes, it is really just that simple.

I think some people at DU are just as hostile and obnoxious in their anti-religiosity as Bible-thumpers are in their fervor.

The bottom line is that Obama said in front of a traditionally ANTI-ABORTION audience that he trusts women to make those decisions for themselves.

And I don't know about you, but I carefully considered the possible risks and complications as outlined in the Informed Consent before I had a termination of pregnancy. Everyone undergoing any kind of surgical procedure should.

Rage on.

on the Christian hater threads. I am hostile to injecting religion into government and to a lesser degree into politics.

And yes, I considered the physical ramifications of abortion, that has nothing whatsoever to do with the message Obama was sending.

You can dismiss it as rage, just as I dismiss you as being defensive about your candidate and unwilling to admit that he used religious language about about abortion.

So, I'll just dismiss this exhibition of faux outrage de jour as simply more nonsense from the peanut gallery.

zealotry in the service of candidates is funny as hell. :rofl:

I'm less than thrilled with any candidate going on Pat Robertson's fundy show.

I'll dismiss the real and slightly crazy outrage over any reasonable criticizm that comes from over stoked partisans.

:hi:

Look into it.

it's called overzealous partisanship. Don't worry, there's a cure for it. Either Obama will win the primaries and we'll all be on the same side, wildly over zealous for him, or someone else will, and hopefully the same will hold true.

to what you would do if you found yourself in the situation of having an unwanted pregnancy. Really, did you NEVER consider it at all? Riiiigggggggghhhhttttttt.

I knew if I became pregnant I'd have an abortion. It simply wasn't anything I needed to give thought to. You may not want to believe it, but there are lots and lots of women who don't find it some big moral quandary. I didn't. Years later, I still don't.

How did you know that? OMG, you had to make a CHOICE before you got in that situation...but, you didn't give any THOUGHT to your choice? Uh huh.

And, whether or not it's a big "moral choice" for you, does not mean it's not a moral choice for others. Again, NEWSFLASH: There are more women who believe in a "God" than there are those who don't---and, in their minds, it IS a moral choice which takes some "thoughtful" and for a lot of them "prayerful" consideration.

I'm sure there are many who do pray over it, but guess what? I sizable number don't. And I doubt that you've had the conversations I have with women who have had abortions. Male arrogance again.

Sorry, no I really didn't give it any thought. And no, it wasn't an earth shaking experience.

and neither are you.

We are considered, if we get considered at all, as deviants. I can't stand the false piety of our 'mainstream' politicians. The intrusion of religion into politics is massively dangerous to a free republic.

the Evangelicals. And, saying what he said, he does not. He could have said the same thing using the word "thoughtful" and it would have not been a problem.

I am just tired to see Democrats chose them over us, non religious people. They do not need to choose. Talk of values and not of religion, that is all.

and adding some bullshit about being 'prayerful' is downright offensive.

OT, but...

(and my tone and inflection are precisely the same as WKRP's Mr. Carlson saying, "...I though turkeys could fly")

As God as my witness... I thought you were male.




Anyways... although I've neither chosen nor ruled out any of the candidates yet, I have a feeling that Sen. Obama was/is navigating some tricky waters in regards to being the progressives choice whilst simultaneously attempting to reach out to a new voting demographic.

In other words, most likely a statement made without getting vetted first. And in these days of five bajillion interests groups on every city block, I think any candidate could say something as innocuous as "I like soccer" and end up pissing off a sizable block of potential voters.

I understand that Obama was navigating tricky waters. I just wish he'd chosen not to enter those particular waters. And I don't see this as utterly benign, though it certainly isn't something that would have an impact on my voting for him.

NT

I don't agree with you as often as I would like but I am very glad to agree with you on this.

I am pretty sure he didn't mean that you literally put your hands together and seek divine guidance for your decision. Without twisting his words into the most literal and ridiculous meaning, it seems clear that he meant that women will look into their hearts before arriving at their decision. I am glad that the process was so serene for you and wish you nothing but peace.

religious language that's open to interpretation and that I'm not comfortable with.

My ex-wife had an abortion. Did not think twice about it. In fact, most women I know who had abortions really do not understand why everyone thinks it was something over which they agonized. To a hell of a lot of us out here it just ain't no big deal.

It confuses me (and sort of pisses me off) that some assholes out there think this is "evil".


Obama may or may not be one of those assholes. He did not say that ALL women pray over the matter. What he did was get in the face of an audience that pretends religious people do not have abortions and tell them that pretense was a crock of shit. Relgious people have abortions too.

What is this parlor game of re-creating everything Obama says to pretend it's less offensive?

He DID say that ALL women pray over the matter.

If you want to imagine that he didn't MEAN to say that, then have at it. But words have meanings, singly and in combination, and a basic comprehension of English reveals that he did, in fact, say that ALL women pray over abortions.

The statement "Cats have ears" means that cats have ears. It doesn't mean cats who watch the 700 club have ears, or some cats have ears. Nor does it deny that a few cats may have lost ears.

Cats, like women, are a set. The set has properties. Obama said the set of women pray over abortion. That mean it is the essential nature of women to pray over abortion. Any women who do not are freakish exceptions, akin to cats that have lost ears in fights.

The single commonest phrase from the Obama apologist (I do not say supporter... the set of apologists is larger than the set of supporters) is, "What he meant was..."

What the hell is this man doing in politics if he is all but incapable of opening his mouth without saying something that takes an army of interpreters to redefine and decode his simple statements?

Frankly, your rather flip attitude about what many believe is a life and death decision doesn't help Dems when it comes to protecting the right to choose.

painting the picture that women have to agonize over having an abortion. Many don't. I'm one of them. And I don't see early term abortions- and most are- as being about life and death.

Your attitude doesn't help Dems make the case that we should protect a woman's right to choose ~ it makes you seem careless and indifferent.

I'm not running for office. I'm not going to be a hypocrite about it. I'm not saying it's not an important decision. I'm saying for a lot of women, it's not a difficult one.

Choice is a "right" only as long as we can keep more Rep. judges off the court ~ and if Dems are seen as careless about something that's very important to religious voters, those voters will stick with the Reps. and we will all lose that "right."

Obama wants religious voters to trust that Dem women (and men) aren't asses about such an important decision ~ so they might vote other issues this time 'round instead of just that one.

right wing justices- and they're never called judges- off the SC.
And my perspective is hardly going to cause a massive shift in voting. You're being hysterical.

It's simple. Obama wants the votes of religious folks who are at odds with his position (and ours) on choice ~ he was trying to find common ground on the issue so that they might feel comfortable voting for him. Why turn it into such a big deal???

The simply truth is that religious folks are the majority in this country. The majority of democrats, and of republicans, are religious. Virtually every election for representatives in the executive and legislative branches of the federal government will be determined by religious folks. There really isn't any serious case to be made except for if we will elect religious democrats or if religious republicans will be elected.

We're talking about a certain subgroup of religious folks. Pat Robertson is utterly despicable. I see no reason for any dem to go on a show owned and run by Pat Robertson. I'm sure you haven't forgotten the incredibly offensive comments he has often made.

I haven't. I'm no more likely to do that, than I am to think that because Senator Obama speaks to a group of people on Pat Robertson's show, that makes his opinion similar to Pat Robertson. I remember in the classic debate between Minister Malcolm and the "expert" (found in "Malcolm X Speaks," pages 178 to 193), the "expert" calls Malcolm a communist because he spoke to a Workers' World Forum. Malcolm noted that he had spoken to a Methodist church a few days earlier, and that no more made him a Methodist than speaking to the other audience made him a communist.

I'm not saying this to pick a fight or for a cheap debater's point, but can you see how to me it seems curious that you are taking the position you are on Senator Obama, so shortly after taking the position that the democratic party needs to have a big tent without purity tests? I do respect your right to your opinions and beliefs, but I am confident that the approach Senator Obama took in speaking to this group will go father towards winning states like Pennsylvania than your's.

Since when is "prayer" a dirty word?
Obama is wise to try to garner the religious vote as that is one huge constituency. http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=359

Somehow I feel that someone is over-reacting a wee bit...eh? After all he didn't say that they prayed that they wouldn't have an abortion.

I have four children. I wonder what the difference in the amount of thought goes into having an abortion if it is based on whether one has had a child or not.

I don't give a fuck what "many believe" when it comes to what I do with a parasitic blob of cells in my own body. "Many believe" it really isn't that big of a deal, and our "flip" attitude is informed by science. I've not had to make that choice, but I know other women who have, and not one of them were "prayerful" over it, nor was there any hand-wringing or gnashing of teeth.

Buying into this sexist right-wing garbage that every woman is an emotional mess over abortion is bullshit and is the real danger to our right to choose. This mindset reduces women to nothing but hysterical children. That's not to say that women who DO struggle with this decision are less than or somehow inferior, or bad people--I'm saying don't believe the right wing hype on this, especially when it's born out of paternalistic assumptions about women.

You've just made my point ~ using expressions like "a parasitic blob of cells in my own body" to talk about something that many others consider a living being perpetuates the idea of a "culture war" and hurts the Dem cause of keeping choice legal.

...but I disagree with your assertion that a progressive is hurting the cause of choice because they refuse to adopt the "language" or views of anti-choicers.

But last I checked, no one in this country has won any right by endorsing the views of those that oppose those rights.
The civil rights movement would not have gained any ground if the people involved attempted to "appease" the bigots. Women didn't win the right to vote by saying,"...you're right--we shouldn't vote. Continue to make decisions for us. Tell us when we can vote."

Women don't need to appease those that want to make "moral" arguments and turn their bodies into a political battleground. It's important to recognize when people are twisting facts and science with their personal morality and emotion, for the sake of politics and control.

We as progressives, don't have to adopt or endorse their views in order to support women's right to choice--no more than they have to give up their right to believe what they do. If a woman believes life begins at conception, she never has to have an abortion.

I'm saying that speaking in a flip careless way about abortion and early pregnancy only keeps the idea of a culture war going ~ it doesn't help our cause for liberals to be seen as callous.

Personally, I think a woman who doesn't need to consider abortion prayerfully, thoughtfully or meditatively (whatever language works) is a woman too immature to have sex in the first place ~ and as a thoughtful liberal I don't want to be associated with the attitude that abortion is no big deal. I'm glad Obama is presenting a more loving and responsible view of pro-choice voters.

...you are entitled to your view.

You say we that you aren't saying we should adopt their views, yet you seem to think it's appropriate to dictate who is or isn't worthy to have sex. Such a perspective seems equivalent to the anti-choicers. Such a view also seems presumptive.

Your view fails to consider women that are raped, assaulted or molested.
A woman pregnant by rape probably won't consider abortion thoughtfully, and doesn't need to (as far as I'm concerned). But I'm willing (and able) to deem the same right to all women--assaulted or not. It's not my place to deem who is entitled to a sex life.

Forgive me for saying so, but your comments here feel oddly reminiscent of the anti-choice crowd.
Those that want to dictate which women are worthy of the right to make their own choices, and seem to think only certain kinds of women get pregnant at all. Please excuse me while I place you on my ignore list. Thanks for making your position crystal clear.

I was praying my girl friend won't get pregnent when the
condom broke :D

And those who do are stupid. Obama is plain dumb to acknowledge there are Christian women who pray over tough decisions.

:sarcasm:

I never said all women were like me. I said I don't like the issue of abortion being couched in religious language. There. I made it even more simple for the very simple.

abortion does have some religious implications. Even those who support the right to chose. Any candidate needs to garner as many votes as possible. Do you not get that simple fact? If you are secure in your opinion of abortion rights and you support this candidate (maybe you don't - so let's say 'party') you will understand what Obama was doing. This is not about your sensibilities as a woman who happens to be a Democrat, it's making sure that the party gets as many votes as it takes to win the election in order to ensure the continuance of that right to chose.

I don't know how old you are, but I can remember the days of botched back-alley abortions.

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this "christo-speech" (cali) ones usually fails as so many on the right we have seen do over these last several years. Obama should know better and live his life the way he believes G-d wants him too. People will see that more then him having to say it. Words and deeds my friends prove more.

Ben David