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Which concerns you more: disenfranchising voters or letting students vote in state where school is?

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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:54 PM
Original message
Poll question: Which concerns you more: disenfranchising voters or letting students vote in state where school is?
Which concerns you more: disenfranchising voters or letting students vote in state where school is? :shrug:
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Every election we're breaking our asses to get kids to vote
So let's tell them they can't :crazy:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. I honestly don't see the issue.
A student must be registered to vote. In one state. If a non-student splits time between states, he (or she) must choose one to register in. Why should it be different just because the voter is a student?

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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Whats the big deal if they choose Iowa then?
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tammywammy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Me either
As I said in another thread, when I was in college, a lot of students registered to vote in that town.

:shrug: They live there 9 months to a whole year (if they do summer school). If they register in that town, it also allows them the ability to vote in city elections.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. If they're living on campus, a lot of states don't consider them to be resident there.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. If that's the case, then they can't register there, can they?
Do Democrats have to show a registration card to get into a caucus? Are names on a list, like they have at polling places?
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. My kid pays 'out of state' tuition rates - if he resisters to vote there will we get in state rates?
The OP is a BS push poll - students who are *not* year round residents are *not* residents.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. I don't know.
Is he allowed to register there? That's the point. If party rules allow someone to register with an address from that state, then they are eligible to vote. I don't think political parties and universities meet to discuss their separate policies, do you?
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. How many addresses are you allowed?
I get mail in three different states. Home, office, and summer home. Pay property taxes, utility bills, and even register vehicles in three states. Before the '08 election, I might add another house in another state. Four votes! The OP (back on topic) suggests a false choice.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. You can only register one address. n/t
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. What constitutes "residence"?
If they live there 9 mos out of the year, if they have a job they pays taxes there, the decisions made by the local govt effects them. For non-students residency is established after one or two or three months, depending on local laws. For students, residency is never established no matter how long they actually reside there.

The fact is students are treated differently than non-students - merely because they are students. Thats the very definition of discrimination.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
5. Isn't denying students the right to vote where they live (at school) disenfranchising them?
The second problem is a small part of the first problem.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Are they year round resdients? I have a house in Maine, where I was born, so can I vote there?
Even though I live elsewhere, but would rather vote where I spend part of the year?
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. Do you spend a majority of time there? Do you consider your Maine house your home?
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. Or disenfranchising residents by allowing kids from elsewhere to vote in local elections?
Should all those kids from China and India be allowed to vote in Cambridge elections?
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. What an idiotic comment.
Edited on Sun Dec-02-07 10:03 AM by jefferson_dem
And a Repug electoral fear-mongering talking point to boot. Bah.
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MethuenProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Nice quick edit there, JefDem.
Hoping the mods are slow today?
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Really? I only edited to correct a typo, silly.
Might the mods penalize me for those?
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
26. 'Kids' (adults, really, since they're over 18) from India can vote in Cambridge elections
Cambridge, UK that is. Any Commonwealth, or Irish, citizen who is legally resident in the UK can vote in all elections. Citizens of other EU states who are resident in the UK can vote for the UK MEPs in European elections.

http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/your-vote/registering.cfm

It's what civilised countries do. Allowing Americans to vote in American elections in the place they spend most of their time seems a good idea, too.

For local council elections in the UK, students can vote in both the university town, and their parents' home town (if it's different, of course). For country-wide elections, they have to choose which one they'll vote in.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Who said the US was civilized?
If it was, it hasn't been since the Bush Regime took power.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
15. Non-residents are allowed to vote in NH primaries.
You just have to have a "domicile" here. Doesnt bother me at all.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Same in Iowa
If you are an out of state student 'living and going to school' in Iowa you can register to vote in the caucuses here.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. And in the case of our two states...
Id think people wouldnt mind so much... based on the fact that probably increases our diversity.
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Debi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Isn't that a swear word
when speaking of Iowa and New Hampshire?

:hi:
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. LOL.
I think youre right. I lost my head for a minute there! :hi:
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ilovesunshine Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
17. Will these students be at "home" or at "school" during the GE?
My question is, will they be away from school for the GE or at school where they would be registered to vote? Considering that these students wish to vote for Obama during the primary.

Thank you!

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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. For the GE, presumably they would be at school
For the primary/caucus, they would be where they put themselves, as they have two legitimate residences and a choice of which one they can vote from. With the original Iowa caucus date, they would have been residing at school, in any case, and exercising (or not) their right to caucus. Once the caucus date went earlier in the compressed schedule, they could remain at their school residence, return to their school residence, or stay on break elsewhere. But they retain the right to caucus. The Supreme Court ruled 30 years ago that students must be given the presumption of residency where they go to school. To my knowledge, that remains the case, although the Republicans have worked overtime every election season all over the country to sabotage that presumptive voting right of students.
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ilovesunshine Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thank you!
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Do state's caucuses and primaries
fall under the federal guidelines on residence WD?
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. College students voting in caucuses and primaries
As far as I know, a voting residence is a voting residence under that statute and it's not limited to national elections. I just don't know if it's been tested or not as to which would take precedent. If I see something that says otherwise, I will post it. But in practice certainly and historically, out of state college students have been voting in primaries and caucuses in their school states all along providing a pretty solid precedent, I would think.

Aside from your immediate question, to which I'm sorry I don't have a better answer, there have been others raised in elections, mainly by Republicans trying to suppress the student vote at the state and local level. In 2006, for example, the DNC was on the RNC for voter suppression that included students and armed services personnel not living in the state of primary residence. Howard Dean was on the case.

The guide being used in Maryland is consistent with Republican efforts across the country, and in past elections, to challenge voters in order to deny them their right to vote and to manipulate the outcome of an election. A similar effort in 1981 led to a court ruling that forces the Republican National Committee to obtain the court’s permission prior to carrying out any such program, and to give the Democratic National Committee 20 days notice prior to going to court. On Monday, DNC Chairman Howard Dean sent a letter to RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman asking him to comply with both the letter and the spirit of the law, and confirm that neither the RNC or its affiliates would carry out any such tactics to disenfranchise voters. The effort to challenge voters in Maryland uncovered by the Washington Post clearly shows a disregard for that court ruling and is further evidence of the Republican Party’s commitment to keeping Americans they disagree with from voting.

The Washington Post story also comes a day after an agreement was reached in front of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Ohio, which gives voters a partial victory guaranteeing that nobody will be turned away by a lack of ID documentation. Thanks to the plaintiffs who took on the Republican Voter ID law, hundreds if not thousands of voters, including college students and our brave men and women in uniform, who otherwise might not have been able to vote will now get to cast a ballot. However, the confusion surrounding this year's election only reinforces the need to closely examine these requirements after Election Day.

http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/11/dean_on_md_vote.php


The Rock the Vote site has examples of attempts at voter suppression among college students in different election years in various states:



University of Arizona (2004)
On August 31, 2004, KSMB-TV’s Fox 11 News at 9 aired a segment featuring a Pima County registrar, Chris Roads, incorrectly stating that out of state students cannot register to vote in Arizona. The Fox reporter, Natalie Tejeda, took this misstatement one step further, stating that out of state students who register to vote in Arizona face criminal prosecution for committing a felony offense. Campus chapters of Rock the Vote and the Feminist Majority responded by holding local press conferences to publicize a student’s right to vote in Arizona; the national offices worked with the Brennan Center for Justice in New York to send letters to both the County Recorders Office and Fox News, Tucson, demanding a clarification of student voting rights. These efforts successfully cumulated in a September 17 press release from the Pima County Recorder’s Office affirming the right of all Arizona students to register and vote.

University of Delaware (2004)
A graduate student at U-Del was alarmed to find that materials distributed in the state-required class in which he was being trained to register new voters explicitly say that students who live in dorms are not eligible to register to vote. This Voter Registration Drive Manual also suggests that students be encouraged to vote absentee in the state where they lived before coming to school, and that students be warned that voting in Delaware could cause them to lose their financial aid and could affect their taxes and driver’s license. These statewide policies blatantly disenfranchise all students who live on campus and strongly discourage many others from voting. (Source: The News Journal, 4/25/2004; Delaware State Election Commissioner Procedures Manual for Organized Voter Registration Drive)


Skidmore College (Saratoga Springs, NY)
In 2001, the students at Skidmore had their votes challenged by a poll watcher who stood at the doors of the polling place used by students, questioning the legality of votes cast by people who looked young. The poll watcher challenged students and required them to use affidavit ballots, meaning they had to reaffirm their eligibility by signing two oaths: one swearing their residency, and one acknowledging that any false statements would make them guilty of perjury. This tactic effectively scared many students out of casting their ballot on Election Day. Furthermore, there appeared to be partisan issues involved—the students make up a Democratic voting bloc in a majority Republican town, and the poll watcher intimidating students was also a volunteer for a Republican candidate. (Source: Metroland, 11/13/2003)

http://www.rockthevote.com/rtv_campuscamp_dorights.php


In the current situation in Iowa, although it's Democratic opponents who are objecting, instead of Republicans, the Democratic State Party and the Republican State Party both say it's legal for students to return to caucus, the Iowa Secretary of State's office says it's within the rules to attempt to educate student voters about caucusing, and colleges are opening their dorms for the purpose of the caucus, so there doesn't seem to be a conflict between state and federal law in Iowa.

Tommy Vietor, press secretary for Obama, said the flier that encourages out-of-state college students to return is being distributed only to students. Both the Democratic and Republican state parties as well as the Iowa secretary of state have said college students are legally allowed to return to caucus, he noted.

"It is sort of simplified language, but it's just making sure kids know that if you're a college student living on campus or off campus, you can caucus if you register in Iowa," Vietor said of the campaign brochure.

Some college campuses are temporarily reopening dorms during the winter break to make it easier for students to caucus. Coe College, for example, will open its dorms between noon on Jan. 3 and noon on Jan. 4 in an attempt to encourage student caucus participation.

Iowa Secretary of State Michael Mauro noted that his office has also worked with other groups to help educate young voters on how to caucus.

"I think it's playing within the rules," Mauro said of Obama's instructions to college students.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071201/NEWS09/712010320/1001/NEWS


Last year, the Republicans were pushing changes to the New Hampshire law, on the other hand, and the Democratic Party there was pushing back. I'd have to research any developments in this story, but it seems to me that this sort of thing might be a conflict between state and federal law and also might provide an answer to your question if it has been challenged over which would take precedent. If the student's legal voting address is the school bringing with it the federal right to vote in the same state as the school, can they also be required to have a New Hampshire driver's license as the proposed state legislation does?

Republicans, who introduced the voting bills, say that the proposed changes are necessary in order to prevent people from voting in more than one place, which constitutes a felony.

“We need to make sure we have integrity in our voting laws,” said Republican Representative Robert Introne of Londonderry. “There has been suggestion by independent sources that students can be recruited and end up voting in that state when rightfully they should not be voting there.”

Democrats, on the other hand, see the bills as an attempt to disenfranchise college students who live in and go to school in New Hampshire and prevent them from casting largely Democratic votes. Bernie Benn, a House Democrat who represents Hanover, also pointed out that there is an unusually high voter turnout in Keene, Durham and Hanover, all of which are towns with large college student populations.

http://thedartmouth.com/2006/03/31/news/bill/


I would say this whole brouhaha is not an issue in Iowa, though, unless Democratic candidates insist on making it one in the face of their own party's ongoing battles for the opposite goal. I also do not think college students will appreciate it if their voting rights are tampered with by Democrats any more than they do when it is by Republicans. And I think the "Republican Playbook" charge by any of our candidates who take this line against other of our candidates will have no meaning whatsoever. Just my opinion, for what it's worth.








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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Thanks WD,
that's better than what I found, but the Ohio law seem to say the same thing:


In Ohio, where a person may vote is determined by where that person is a "resident." The Ohio Constitution states that "very citizen of the United States, of the age of eighteen years, who has been a resident of the state, county, township, or ward, . . . and has been registered to vote for thirty days, has the qualifications of an elector, and is entitled to vote at all elections." 3 The Ohio Revised Code further states that a person must be a resident of the county and precinct in which the person wishes to vote. 4 Thus the location of a college student's residence is a key determination when registering to vote.

The Ohio Revised Code states that, for elections purposes, a residence is the place where the person's "habitation is fixed and to which, whenever the person is absent, the person has the intention of returning." 5 A person does not lose a residence if he or she leaves temporarily, with the intention of returning, nor does a person gain a residence when in a state or county "for temporary purposes only." 6

In Ohio, college students may claim their college address as their residence. According to the Ohio Secretary of State's web site, a student may vote from the student's school address "if the student regards that place as his/her residence and registers to vote." 7 A student's voting residence is "the residence you claim as your home . . . ." 8 However, the Secretary of State goes on to suggest that students should "consult with your parents because each consideration of home may be different for each student." 9 Those "considerations" may include income tax filing status, scholarships based on living in a particular locale, and insurance coverage, among other implications. An additional consideration is that knowingly registering in a precinct where the person is not a qualified voter is a fifth degree felony in Ohio. 10

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/ebook/part1/eligibility_rules06.html



It looks like a non-issue. I think the only thing that could potentially hurt him, is the number of students bused in. If there are a significant number, and if they're coming mainly from Illinois, he may get a backlash from the permanent Iowa residents.

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rufus dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
28. Didn't vote Jef Dem because this is a ridiculous issue
The whole issues is a diversion tactic by a candidate that doesn't like the current rules. Exactly like trying to change rules in Ohio and Florida to favor your own candidate. If fucking stinks to high hell and reflects very poorly on the candidate(s) and their supporters who try to defend it.
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