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Hillary: College students in Iowa shouldn't be allowed to caucus.

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Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009)

geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:22 AM
Original message

Hillary: College students in Iowa shouldn't be allowed to caucus.

Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 10:35 AM by geek tragedy

In a jab at Obama�s efforts to encourage out-of-state students who attend college in Iowa to caucus, Clinton said the caucuses are only for people who live in this state.

�This is a process for Iowans. This needs to be all about Iowa, and people who live here, people who pay taxes here,� she told the Clear Lake crowd.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071203/NEWS/71203018/-1/politics

Tell that to the Iowa legislature, you Pug Lite.

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proud2BlibKansan

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:23 AM
Response to Original message

1. thanks for the correction

Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 10:38 AM by proud2Blib

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rodeodance

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #1

7. it is beyond misleading.

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proud2BlibKansan

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #7

16. I can't stand Hillary but

this is just plain dishonest.

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #16

19. Title updated. Clinton still hates democracy. n/t

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #1

12. Is disenfranchising people okay for the Iowa caucus? n/t

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proud2BlibKansan

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #12

14. No but it's dishonest to imply she was talking about something else

Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 10:33 AM by proud2Blib

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #14

18. Either she believes in democracy or she doesn't. n/t

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proud2BlibKansan

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #18

22. Do you understand the difference between a caucus and an election?

She said the students should not be able to vote IN THE CAUCUS. She said NOTHING about voting in general elections.

No I don't agree with her at all. But damn, there is enough dirt on Hillary. We don't need to be making up stuff and posting misleading headlines here.

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #22

24. Caucuses aren't part of the election process? n/t

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proud2BlibKansan

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #24

29. Part, not all

If she had said these kids shouldn't be able to vote AT ALL you'd have a much bigger complaint. Like I said, I disagree with Hillary on this (and on many other issues as well) but there is a BIG difference between a caucus and an election.

What about states that don't have a caucus? Or states like mine that have a caucus too late to make a difference? Isn't that wrong too?

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #29

43. Those states have primaries, which students are also

allowed to participate in.

Those students have a CONSTITUTIONAL right to participate in the Iowa caucuses.

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RaleighNCDUer

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #22

50. Whoa.

When are the elections? November, right? Where will the students be in November? Iowa. They will vote where they are. They have every right to caucus in the state where they will vote, in the state where they live for 9 months of the year - it's called 'residency'.

She's way outta line on this one.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #1

30. Obama's plotting to make this the "Illinois" Caucus - because he can't win without Illinois students

Why is he targeting "If You Are Not From Iowa" students in his college handouts?
Why is he plotting to bus them back to college from their homes in Illinois to caucus, and then providing them with bus rides "back home" to Illinois?
Because he's done the math.

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DS1

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:24 AM
Response to Original message

2. heh

she's such a tool

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MADem

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message

3. I read the link, didn't see FREE LOADING in there. Did I miss it? NT

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #3

8. She's saying that only people who pay taxes in Iowa

should be allowed to participate in the caucus.

Funny that the state of Iowa takes their tuition money as well as their sales tax money without any complaint.

Go back to Arkansas, Hillary.

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rjones2818

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #8

26. Her point is reasonable,

if the students are registered to vote in their home state. If they chose to vote in Iowa, they they should be able to caucus.

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #26

27. No, she's saying that they shouldn't be allowed

to participate no matter what.

You can't vote in two different state primaries.

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rjones2818

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #27

33. That's my point.

If they register to vote in Iowa (and meet whatever Iowa's voting standards are) then they should be able to caucus in Iowa.

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MADem

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #8

36. No she isn't. She's saying that plumping up the caucuses with out-of-state students

for the sole purpose of swinging a vote, absent any other motivator, and absent a likihood that these individuals would vote in IA otherwise, isn't cool. Sort of like stuffing the ballot box.

She isn't saying that non-taxpaying Iowans shouldn't be allowed to participate. That's absurd.

Context is everything.

I see the original subject line has been changed to make the issue clearer.

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #36

48. You have a problem with people exercising their

constitutional right to participate in the electoral process?

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MADem

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #48

56. I'll tell ya--I wouldn't like it if, say, John Kerry was running against Reginald Republican,

and a whole bunch of college republicans, who ordinarily would have voted in their home states, suddenly switched their affiliation to MA for just this one election, in order to put Reginald over the top. And ONLY for that reason.

Now, if these kids have been voting in IA all along, for their representative, in the Senate contests, local elections...more power. But if some kid who has been voting in Colorado or Michigan suddenly feels the urge to caucus in IA, solely to game the system, well, it is their RIGHT to do it, but it just isn't the right thing to do.

It's stuffing the ballot box. There's a moral aspect to it.

I'd find it just as reprehensible if college students did it for any other candidate, as well.

But like I said--they CAN. Just because you can does not mean you should, though.

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Skip Intro

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:26 AM
Response to Original message

4. Pug lite, eh?

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provis99

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message

5. Hmm. Clinton sounds like

one of those old white Southern politicians warning the local yokels about "outside agitators". She managed a trifecta of stupid here: insults Obama, insults Iowans, and insults out-of-state students.

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #5

9. She hates democracy. n/t

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #5

59. Interesting that the Supreme Court case that decided

students' college residences had to be presumed by states to be their voting residences was set in Texas, where local officials of a college town with out of state black students in residence barred them from voting.

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rurallib

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:27 AM
Response to Original message

6. Well I would think that will encourage them to come back and caucus

Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 10:28 AM by rurallib

If they can participate in all other electoral process in their college towns why not the caucus Hillary? Remember all these cities count students as living there for the purpose of getting federal money.
Hillary is throwing a challenge right in their collective faces.

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rodeodance

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #6

20. i imagine it depends on which state they claim residence. I know some college students

who claim the college state as their new state address, while others put down their premanent address as their home state (iowa in this case).

In a jab at Obama�s efforts to encourage out-of-state students who attend college in Iowa to caucus, Clinton said the caucuses are only for people who live in this state.

�This is a process for Iowans. This needs to be all about Iowa, and people who live here, people who pay taxes here,� she told the Clear Lake crowd

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #20

28. College students at Grinnell, for instance, do live in Iowa.

She just doesn't want them to vote because they'll vote for Obama over her by a 3-1 margin.

Classic Republican-style vote suppression.

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #20

38. No, it's presumptive

According to the Supreme Court, college students have a presumptive right to vote from the state where they go to school. It doesn't matter what their permanent address is. What they can't do is vote from two addresses, home and school. It has to be one or the other, but it's their choice and, in fact, their right to decide which address they will vote from.

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sufrommich

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message

10. I believe freeloading is one word. Just saying. nt

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rodeodance

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #10

23. one or two, the word does not fit Hill's words.

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Name removed

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:31 AM
Response to Original message

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #11

13. I like democracy, so I don't like her. n/t

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MNDemNY

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #13

15. Use facts, then , instead of moronic tripe.

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #15

17. Okay, she's saying that people who live in Iowa 9 months

out of the year and pay tuition there and pay sales tax there shouldn't be allowed to vote.

She's no better than the goons who stole Florida in 2000.

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MNDemNY

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #17

32. If they register to vote in Iowa..Fine

Do you have any idea how a caucus works? These students, and part time residents will show up at caucuses along side "full time" Iowans. There is no secret ballot, they (the students) will have to convince the others to join them in support of BHO, it has been my experience in MN caucuses(yes I'm old) That the full time residents will tend to be put off by what they see as "interlopers" This strategy may well backfire on BHO. This is not at all like a primary. Neighbors stick together, Many who live full time near campuses already have some built in resentment of students. Good luck with that.

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #32

41. "Full time Iowans?" The SCOTUS doesn't

recognize that as a category.

Moreover, people who don't like college kids probably shouldn't live in college towns.

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MNDemNY

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #41

45. But they do live in college towns.

I am just stating what have been my observations. If the HRC campaign can give the "perception" that these students are in fact "interlopers", it would go a ways toward an anti BHO sentiment among, (for lack of a better phrase) full time Iowans. I do not challenge the students right to become involve if they are legally untitled to do so, But I doubt this will make much of a difference.I have lived in a few college towns around the country, and I can state that there is a built in animosity of students from "townies"

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #45

77. Bottom line, she's bad on this issue and can't be trusted

to defend voting rights.

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MNDemNY

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #77

85. Actually, the bottom line are the results.

I think she's got an edge on this one.It's all about perception.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #17

34. Obama's learned from Rove's theft of Florida in 2000 - Rove's snowbirds are Obama's students.

Who will go back home to Illinois and vote for him there, too.
Obama hates democracy.
He's no better than the thugs who stole Florida in 2000.

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bigscott

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #17

35. i went to University in iowa

but my legal residence was in CT - i could not vote in iowa - i had to vote by absentee ballot in CT. if i was a legal resident of IOWA i would not have been paying out of state tuition

This was a while back - they may have changed the rules since then

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #35

44. If that was since the 1970s

Yes, you did have the right to caucus in Iowa or vote in any other state you attended school as a resident, no matter where your legal address was. Somebody may have told you differently, that you needed to vote absentee in your home state. Republicans in college towns everywhere play that game every election year. Thankfully, the Democratic Party has always stood up for student voting rights. For the purposes of voting, by federal law, a student resident of a state from out of state is a legal resident of the state. What a college state can do is try and make it more difficult if they want to; however, Iowa has encouraged students, both in state and from out of state, to caucus.

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jefferson_dem

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:36 AM
Response to Original message

21. We should make sure college students everywhere know about Hillary's disenfranchisement plans...

The "sleeping giant" that is the 18-24 voting population wakes up.

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #21

25. I guess she wants to concede them to the Republicans.

Way to build the party, Ms. Selfish.

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MNDemNY

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #21

37. More tripe.

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jefferson_dem

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #37

51. Thanks for your typical substanceless contribution.

Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 11:34 AM by jefferson_dem

Do you still think Obama can't be elected because he's an African-American?

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MNDemNY

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #51

55. Tit-for-tat.

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mtnsnake

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #21

40. ...and just how would you go about accomplishing that?

What, you're gonna take time off from slandering Hillary 24/7 on DU and set out in your car, roaming college campuses nation wide, spouting to college students in bewteen their classes that Hillary has "disenfranchisement plans"? Good luck!

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #40

42. Oh, the big Facebook sites can circulate this pretty quickly.

Hillary, being the past instead of the future of the party, is willing to piss all over the future of the party to further her own ego-driven plans.

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jefferson_dem

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #40

53. It just might happen...shall we say...organically.

People underestimate the power of information in the hands of young people at their own peril.

Oh, and i've never slandered Hillary. Thanks.

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:43 AM
Response to Original message

31. She is so very wrong

The Supreme Court decided 30 years ago that college students have a presumptive right to a voting address where they go to school. The State of Iowa encourages out of state students to participate in the Iowa caucus. She's messing with student voting rights here, something the Republicans break their backs to screw them out of every election season all over the country. So nice of her to help out.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 10:50 AM
Response to Original message

39. GREAT link in the OP! Hillary justifiably slams Obama! "Clinton broadens attack on Obama!"

...and the tiny bit about a little jab at BO highlighted by the OPeer is away down at the very bottom in a throw away paragraph. Desperation is obviously the new State of ObamaNation.

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Iggo

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:09 AM
Response to Original message

46. So anyone can vote in the Iowa caucus?

All you have to do is show up? If that's the case, then I don't blame anyone for lining up the buses and filling them with college students. Clinton should be kicking herself for not thinking of it first.

But if that's not the case, and you actually have to MAKE a case that you live there (even part-time,) and assuming those college students CAN make that case...then what the hell are we arguing about?

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geek tragedy

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #46

49. Clinton doesn't want those students who were raised out of state

to vote in Iowa because they like Obama a lot more than they like her.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #49

58. Obama wants the "If You Are Not From Iowa" students to come back from their homes to vote in Iowa.

He was handing out instructions (scan in a previous thread) on Iowa campuses explaining how students from out of state can come back to school early from winter break at their homes to caucus for him in Iowa. The Obama campaign is even providing bus to Iowa, and the "back home" according to information from Iowans posted in a previous thread.
ObamaNation can't win Iowa without Illinois students it seems.

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:11 AM
Response to Original message

47. Iowa Secretary of State website - please read

Non-Iowa Resident Attending College in Iowa

If you are from another state (i.e. Illinois) and are attending college in Iowa (i.e. Iowa State University), you may register to vote in:

* your Iowa college town or
* your home state (hometown) and vote absentee - subject to the laws of your home state

(You cannot register to vote in both locations)

http://www.sos.state.ia.us/elections/VoterInformation/CollegeStudents.html

Iowa Secretary of State Michael A. Mauro
Invites You to the 2008 Iowa Student Caucus

What: 2008 Iowa Student Caucus

On January 3, 2008 Iowa Democrats and Republicans will take the first step in deciding who will be the next President of the United States. Caucus goers will assemble all over Iowa in meetings to discuss politics, candidates and the issues that concern us most. During the caucus, participants choose which candidate we like the best, which political issues to debate and who we want to elect to participate in the next step in the Presidential selection- the county convention. As a student you will be participating in this exact same process.

When: The weeks prior to the Iowa Caucus (January 3, 2008)

Weeks before the real caucus you and other students like you will be able to learn about how a caucus works, who the candidates are and what they stand for before participating in your own Student Caucus. You will be able to discuss politics, debate upon issues, and choose the candidate that you like best.

Where: Your school

Your school will be the perfect setting for such an event. However, before the caucus can be held you have to know how it works. That is why we have created this curriculum to help you better understand how this process works. This curriculum will also walk you through how to hold your own Student Caucus. You will get to practice what happens at a real caucus along with many other students throughout the state of Iowa. You will get a chance to discuss, debate and decide in your own student caucus. You and many other students in Iowa will vote for whom you want to be the next President of the United States.

Why: Because your vote matters!

The caucuses are important because government impacts our everyday lives. Government has a say in almost everything you do. From laws relating to what foods you are served at school to protection from bullying, government affects you. Because of this it is imperative that you take part in the political process and the caucuses are one of the most significant ways to get involved and make a difference. The Iowa Caucuses are the best example of democracy and it is important to learn about the caucuses at an early age so that when you are able to vote or if you are able to vote that you are an informed voter and, you will participate to make a difference.

How: Sign-up to Participate!

View the step by step participation instructions, fill out the Teacher Application/Sign-up Word image sheet and return it to the Secretary of State's office via email to gina.fontanini@sos.state.ia.us, via fax to (515) 242.5952, or by mail to Iowa Secretary of State, ATTN: Gina Fontanini, Statehouse, Des Moines, Iowa 50319.

Hosted by: Iowa Secretary of State Michael A. Mauro, GDDC, Rock the Vote

http://www.sos.state.ia.us/studentyouth/StudentCaucus/index.html

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DURHAM D

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #47

69. The way I see it they can/should vote twice -

The should vote in Iowa (they can register at the caucus) in early January.

School doesn't start for a few more weeks after the caucus so they will likely go home again.

While home they should re-register back in their home state. Illinois does not vote for 4-5 more weeks so they will have time to re-register and get an absentee ballot.

It may be legal - it may not be legal. Either way - it will be impossible to catch.

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #69

75. No, they shouldn't vote twice - it is certainly illegal

I believe there is a fine of several thousand dollars. They should obey the law. But by law, they have the right to choose which address they vote from and to exercise that choice. It's really pissing me off that Democrats can all of a sudden, after years of fighting against the Repukes on this, decide to join them.

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DURHAM D

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #75

80. I know you can't vote twice on the same day -

but I am not sure it is illegal to vote several weeks a part as long as you are legally registered.

What makes it illegal?

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #80

84. The Supreme Court

The out of state resident college student's address has to be presumed by the state to be the student's voting address, but only if the student opts to vote from that address instead of his or her home state address. It's an either/or situation.

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #69

103. I was looking for a link for you

I can't remember the exact name, Eagle Something or other, a GOP project, do exactly that, set out to catch college students who vote twice. I think how it works is one person in the college state partners with others in various home states, so the voting state records are compared with the home state records, so it can be brought to court. It's what they hope students will do so they can get people riled up against the student vote and pass local laws to curb it since students vote Democratic more than not. If it pops back into my head where I read this, I will post it. The Supreme Court decision only says the states can't bar a student from voting from the college town address if that's the address the student chooses to vote from. It doesn't stop states from making it as difficult as they can if they want to do that (which Iowa hasn't). There are very, very many cases around the country of Repuke officials pushing legislation that discourages students voting. The Democratic Party has worked against this and so do voting rights groups and others such as Rock the Vote.

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AtomicKitten

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:20 AM
Response to Original message

52. Beware of those seeking to suppress the vote.

Students are allowed to vote in the state where they attend school.

It's the law. Get over it.

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AZ Criminal JD

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #52

57. That's not the law. Get over it.

Students, or anyone else, can only legally vote where they have permanent residence. That is the law in all 50 states. Where they attend school is completely irrelevant. Many students have attempted to vote where they go to school and also vote by absentee vote where they actually live. There have been many voter fraud cases brought because of this.

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AtomicKitten

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #57

61. This is the same BS accusation that arises in every university town across America.

The candidate that fears losing starts sniveling about "out-of-town" students. Rinse and repeat.

Students are entitled to register to vote and vote in the state where they attend school. That's the law. The Democrats SHOULD be encouraging people to vote. GOTV is a huge part of an election.

And, quite frankly, this conversation is reminiscent of the GOP doing the same sniveling in an attempt to suppress the vote. I consider anyone doing it and defending it pretty much on the same level.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #61

66. Obama was "sniveling" when he targeted "If You Are Not From Iowa" students?

His attempt to suppress the Iowa vote by bussing in students from their homes in Illinois reminds me of Rove's SnowBirds in 2000. "Vote here, vote there, and vote often!" Chicago politics ala 2007...

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AtomicKitten

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #66

67. better stock up on Kleenex because you are clearly going to need them

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #67

73. "Sniveling" was your word of choice for what he's doing, not mine.

Here. Wipe your nose.
:rofl:

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AtomicKitten

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #73

87. Waaaaaaa! Those boys are picking on me.

Waaaaa. Those boys are cheating.

No worries, it will be over soon and then you can take your ball and go home in a huff.

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AZ Criminal JD

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #61

71. You are encouraging students to commit voter fraud

Which has been prosecuted in college towns. It is not the law. I know you are not a lawyer because you would have been disbarred a long time ago for that type of advice.

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #71

89. I'm probably being a jerk by jumping into an argument

Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 12:45 PM by Debi

but Iowa law allows out of state Iowa college students to register in Iowa for the purposes of voting and participating in the Iowa caucuses. There is a post upthread explaining it from the Iowa Secretary of States office. It is legal and within the rules of the Iowa Democratic Party and in fact encouraged. I have yet to see a post from a single Iowan who disagrees with it. The only people who seem to be arguing against it are those from other states trying to apply their state's laws to Iowa. Ask yourself, if the Iowa Caucuses were held on January 14th as planned would Senator Clinton have requested that all 21,000 out of state Iowa college students be barred from participating in them? Including the out of state Iowa college students who have publicly pledged their support for Hillary Clinton?
++++

"Sarah Sunderman, a senior at Iowa State University, said she will drive back early from her home in Minnesota to take part in the Jan. 3 caucuses. She is one of about 21,000 out-of-state students who attend Iowa's public universities. As a member of her school's Democratic student group, she sees the date as a challenge."

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=...

The student makes a point that she will caucus for Hillary Clinton, even though she has a home in Minnesota.

�I am a leader of the Students for Hillary organization at Iowa State University because I believe Senator Clinton has the strength and experience to bring the change our country needs so badly,� said Sarah Sunderman, co-chair of Students for Hillary and former president of the College Democrats at Iowa State University. �She has fought for students like me to make a college education more affordable and she is the only candidate who can hit the ground running on day one in the Oval Office.�

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Eaction/2008/clinton/clinton100207...

+++++

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #89

90. Thank God you've come

I'm exhausted and I'm not even from Iowa :dunce:

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #90

92. What's sad about Senator Clinton saying this is that she has two very smart people advising her here

in Iowa. Teresa Vilmain and Tom Vilsack both know Iowa Law and the rules of the Iowa Democratic Party.

It is totally improper for her campaign and now her alone to provide false or inaccurate information regarding voter participation here in Iowa. Yet, what I've seen in all these threads about this broo-ha-ha is that no Iowans are arguing against out of state Iowa college students participating in the caucuses. I guess we might now and understand the law? :shrug:

This behavior will not help Senator Clinton in Iowa. It will make her look like she doesn't know or understand the law or that she's attempting to pull a fast one on Iowans.

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #92

94. I'm seriously disappointed

I'm not a supporter, though I've never disrespected her, but this is just too low for me. There are enough Republicans all over the country trying to suppress the student vote, without this horse shit from Democrats.

Debi, have you gotten to see any of the candidates live?

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #94

95. I've seen all but Kucinich/Gravel

and unfortunately I missed Richardson last night but am seeing Obama tonight, Dodd tomorrow morning and Biden on Monday.
Saw Clinton on Veteran's day and Biden last Tuesday. The joy of being an undecided voter in Iowa! I'm hoping to see Clinton and Edwards one more time before January 3rd (missed an Edwards event Monday darnit).

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #95

97. I'm so jealous

I mean, green. :(

But I am happy for you :)

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #97

98. It is incredilbe. Sometimes I need to pinch myself

Or as Mr. Debi to pinch me! :blush:

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HeraldSquare212

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #57

63. But establishing residence is a pretty short period of time

and very subjective, based largely on intentions - Do you consider this your permanent residence? It's often no more than a 30 or 60 day period of actual residence before you can claim residency. So, most college students qualify.

I imagine localities and states are happy to have students counted as residents for purposes of drawing congressional districts, federal funding, etc. Think of prisoners - they are counted as residents of the place the jail is, even though they will of course be leaving sooner or later. They can't vote, but that's a punishment, not a function of the fact that they will be leaving eventually.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #63

70. Same night registration for the Iowa caucus.

You don't have to un-register back at home either, you just stay registered there for the primary back in your home state. Double dipping done large.

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #70

99. When a person registers in one state they 'unregister' in the other

to attempt to participate in the same process in two different states is illegal.

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AZ Criminal JD

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #63

78. That's just not true

But don't believe me. Just ask your local public college how long it takes for out-of-state students to establish residency for in-state tuition rates. Many students can't do it for the entire time they are at the school.

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #57

68. You are wrong - it certainly *is the law*

Students have the federal right of voting from either their home state address or their school state address, but not both. The Supreme Court ruled it so in the 1970s and states may not deny that right. What the states can try to do is make it difficult and every election year the Republicans work overtime to make it so with the Democrats generally supporting the students' right to vote from their school addresses. In this particular case, Iowa encourages student residents to participate in the Iowa caucus.

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AZ Criminal JD

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #68

74. It is not the law

We are talking about non-residents here. And so is Clinton and everyone knows it. No state allows non-residents to vote. If that is the case then anyone from the states surrounding Iowa can come in that night and vote. Is that what you want? It probably is.

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Adelante

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #74

82. Please read my post #47 on Iowa

In addition, the Supreme Court gave out of state college students the right to use their college addresses as their voting addresses thirty years ago. Out of state students, not commuting, but student residents of Iowa (or any state) have the choice to vote in their home states or their school states, but not both. You view out of state students as "non-residents" but the law views them as residents for the purpose of voting.

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bunnies

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #74

83. Sorry but... you are wrong.

Non-residents can legally vote in NH and in many other states as well. Oh and guess what, here we also have same day registration and NO mandatory residency requirements. gasp!

This is the law. Happy reading: http://www.sos.nh.gov/college.htm

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AZ Criminal JD

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #83

86. You didn't read the law. Sorry that you are wrong.

The law says students can vote by absentee from the state where they live or they can vote where they go to school ... providing they establish legal residence or domicile in that town. In other words they have to establish legal residence. As I said.

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bunnies

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Wed Dec-05-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #86

93. Did you read the definition of "domicile" per the state of NH?

I doubt it so.. here:

II. College Student Voting
New Hampshire election law provides college students with a special privilege when determining where they register to vote. A college student in New Hampshire may choose as his/her voting domicile, either the domicile he/she held before entering college or the domicile he/she has established while attending college. New Hampshire law provides the following definition of domicile:

An inhabitant's domicile for voting purposes is that one place where a person, more than any other place, has established a physical presence and manifests an intent to maintain a single continuous presence for domestic, social, and civil purposes relevant to participating in democratic self-government. A person has the right to change domicile at any time, however a mere intention to change domicile in the future does not, of itself, terminate an established domicile before the person actually moves. A person�s claim of domicile for voting purposes shall not be conclusive of the person�s residence for any other purpose.

We also have a law entitled: HB 391 Non-resident Voter Protection Act

And heres yet another article entitled: NH Dems allow non-residents to vote and be elected
link: http://robboyce.com/blog/2007/10/06/nh-dems-allow-non-residents-to-vote-and-be-elected/

You might want to brush up on reading comprehension.

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #93

100. Why is it we keep ending up on these threads?

And why is it so many people try to explain our state laws and voter rules to us? :hi:

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bunnies

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Wed Dec-05-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #100

105. Hey Debi!

You know... I was wondering that exact thing myself. :hi:

Just this year NH republicans tried to kill this legislation and our Dems fought for it tooth and nail. I'd never have anticipated such Dem opposition! I wonder if HRC knows she's on the side of NH republicans on this. :shrug: I just dont understand the problem with letting students vote... or the refusal to accept that its legal.

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #105

106. I don't understand it here in Iowa since one of her Iowa advisors is Tom Vilsack

the former Governor. :crazy:

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #74

91. Iowa Law

snip>

Iowa Code Section 43.91 provides that only eligible Iowa voters may participate in the caucus. The only expansion upon that right is the additional factor is that if they are not an eligible voter on the evening of the caucus they will become one by the date of the next general election.

To become a voter in Iowa one must have a residence in the State. To have a residence in Iowa, one must have a home in the precinct "with the intent to remain there permanently or for a definite or indefinite or indeterminable length of time." (Iowa Code Section 48.5A). Further, a non-resident, with a voting registration in another state is not eligible to register in Iowa (i.e. "not claim the right to vote in more than one place." See Section 48A.5(1)(d).

Additionally, there is a limitation on what can be established as a residence. Under Code Section 48A.5A Determination of Residence (2) provides that "a residence for purposes of this chapter cannot be established in a commercial or industrial building that is not normally used for residential purposes", i.e. which I think we can reasonably take to mean not a hotel or a campaign headquarters.

(Note: if this discussion continues, there is a specific exception for students, who may declare either their campus residence or their hometown as their residence, but not both. See 48A.5 (5)).

<snip>

This memo was written in 2003, since then the Iowa Legislature has enacted same day registration so the out of state Iowa college students can register to vote and participate at the caucuses on January 3rd.

It is legal and encouraged by the Iowa Secretary of State and the Iowa Democratic Party.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #52

62. Beware those trying to disenfrancise Iowans by bussing in Illinois residents to caucus.

Iowa is now holding the Illinois Caucus? Who knew?

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AtomicKitten

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #62

65. Oh dear, Hillary's on the ropes and you can't cope.

Get back to us when you can find something illegal to pin on your opponents because this complaint is petty and pointless.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #65

76. "If you are not from Iowa, you can come back for the Iowa caucus in your college neighborhood." - BO

ObamaNation, "sniveling", "petty", and "pointless" - and unable to win in Iowa without bus loads of students from Illinois brought in to disenfrancise Iowans.
You'll never find Bill Richardson doing an end run around Democracy like that.
Good luck to your candidate in the Illinois Caucus.

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AtomicKitten

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Wed Dec-05-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #76

88. Maybe you can find some dead people to vote for Hillary.

I don't think they'll mind her nastiness so much.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #88

107. Chicago politics. First Illinois graveyard voting, now Illinois students caucusing.

Why has Obama embraced the gravedigger tactics of days gone by?

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HeraldSquare212

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message

54. This is a big issue in college towns

Oftentimes colleges are liberal enclaves in more centrist or conservative areas, so local leaders are always trying to suppress the participation of students. This has always been a big issue here in NY state, with, I think, a few state supreme cout (Court of Appeals) challenges on the practice of refusing to put polling states on campuses or convenient to campuses. I realize caucuses are not the general election, but it's still a part of the electoral process, and students should not be denied participation. The point is to nurture a habit of participating, not nurture a habit of accepting exclusion.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #54

60. If you register to vote, do you get in state tuition rates?

That'd save me a ton in the next few years.

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AZ Criminal JD

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #60

64. No. You have to prove intent to make the state your

permanent residence. A college will look at the parent's tax return to see if the student is being carried as a dependent. There are other factors they look at, such as whether the student leaves the state for the summer or other breaks. There are many factors they look at but voting is not one of them.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #64

81. It's easier to vote in a state you don't live in than to qualify for in-state tuition?

Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 11:55 AM by MethuenProgressive

That's nuts.

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Kurt_and_Hunter

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message

72. Are you suggesting the process is not limited to "people who live here"?

Surely nobody is saying non-residents should caucus in Iowa.

If students caucus there, it is because they are claiming residency, so they are "people who live here"

Clinton is sending a message, and not a good message, but she is not saying what your headline says..."students in Iowa shouldn't be allowed to caucus"

Students who are residents do, by definition, live there.

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MethuenProgressive

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Wed Dec-05-07 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #72

79. "Surely nobody is saying non-residents should caucus in Iowa." Well, "If You Are Not From Iowa"...

...seems very clear.

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Sultana

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Wed Dec-05-07 01:24 PM
Response to Original message

96. What is she so afraid of?

Good heavens, Hillary no wonder young people prefer Obama and others.

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #96

101. I don't think Senator Clinton is afraid

I think this is an organized attack on Obama's character. The (crazy) running for President since Kindergarten story, encouraging out of state Iowa college students to caucus (when it's legal), volunteers saying mean things about Senator Clinton in their phone calls (while Clinton volunteers spread rumors about Obama being a Muslim). I think the Senator and her campaign are just trying to get 'soft' Obama supporters to turn away from his campaign. They don't even need to jump onto the Clinton Bandwagon, just NOT caucus for Obama. Even if they go to Edwards it would drop Obama's numbers and then aid Clinton. I think we're only at the beginning of 28 days of little jabs and mud-throwing to see what sticks or what shakes-up Obama and his supporters. Dean and Gephardt did the same thing to each other in 2004. Dean ended up finishing in 3rd place and Gephardt finished in 4th. I don't see this as a very smart campaign strategy.

Oh, welcome to DU! :hi:

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Dawgs

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Wed Dec-05-07 02:23 PM
Response to Original message

102. I don't care who you support, anytime a candidate advocates people not voting it's bad.

Edited on Wed Dec-05-07 02:24 PM by Dawgs

This will not go down well for Hillary.

BTW, where are her supporters?

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Debi

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Wed Dec-05-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #102

104. This is one of several posts that have been started and abandoned by Clinton supporters

in the last few days. As soon as people who actually know the law show up they stop posting in that thread and start a new one.

There are about 21,000 out of state students attending Iowa colleges, not all of them are Democrats (I bet not all of them are registered to vote) and not all of them will want to participate in the Democratic Caucuses. The students registering in Iowa and participating in the caucuses is legal and in fact encouraged by both the Iowa Secretary of State and the Iowa Democratic Party.

The posters have been told this repeatedly and ignore the information provided. They just start up another flaming thread hoping to lure in one or two DUers who didn't see the first three or four. Someone always seems to take the bait.

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