I just saw Sicko for the first time

Anyone that has seen this movie and agrees with the premise and then goes on to support any candidate besides kucinich is not using their brain.

If you agree with the premise of Sicko, you have two choices, support kucinich or support nobody. There are no other choices.

Your support for any other candidate undermines support for single payer not for profit health care.

write.

Your scorched-earth, either/or ultimatums are definitely off-putting.

You could have started with SICKO as your launch point and then solicited comments on the various campaigns' alignment with it.

But you either-or'd yourself out of any inclusive participation, IMO.

in the upcoming caucus and primary campaigns, state by state, and it does not appear to this observer that their first choice is going to be Dennis Kucinich.

Kucinich himself knows that.

Do you have a plan B or when he is mathematically eliminated are you going to move to Bolivia?

Reform in health care is going to be a consensus act before it is ever a legislative reality, and Kucinich's supporters, for the overwhelming most part, are keenly aware of this.

You don't appear to have accepted that, but the majority of Kuicnich supporters I know certainly have. They're moving toward the consensus reform. You aren't.

A candidate who represents THE PEOPLE.

What is it that you think you can get from a John Edwards presidency that you won't get from President Kucinich.

And please don't say "electability" or any other media bullshit cliche.

I like some of the things Edwards is saying, about economic populism and such. But I'm already voting for that. Along with universal healthcare. And an end to this illegal, immoral occupation of Iraq. Which Edwards doesn't seem to be able to promise.

So, how exactly can Edwards do anything for me that Dennis can't? The reality is just the opposite is true.

Dennis can deliver all that he promises, if the people support him.

Fuck the media. Vote what is best for the country.

He's a peach. I love him. I've loved him longer than a lot of people on DU have been alive, way back to the Mayor of Cleveland days. He's been through some fires and the fires are still hot and he's still at work for the anonymous wage-earning blue-collar man or woman in the nation.

I can sing his praises all night if you want me to, and none of it would be superficial or insincere.

But he is not going to be the nominee.

There is no practical mechanism to break 10%, if he even gets that percentage, in the electoral landscape.

He ran into this buzzsaw in 2004 and he was unable to gather the strategists who could find another way through the woods of corporate resistance, mainstream media shunning, and so forth.

He is a regional NE Ohio Democrat of the stripe I dearly love in U.S. political history, but unless you know something I don't, I don't believe he'll be in the January 4th headlines.

And I saw the usual back-of-the-hand dismissal of the other 7 candidates' supporters by the OP and decided to register my view that that is an off-putting approach.

--even if you will eventually accept a kitten.

the objection I made to the OP concerned the exclusivity.

To other candidates' supporters, it's THEIR candidate who's the pony.

If we ask for what Edwards is now proposing, we are likely wind up with something much worse.

A consensus must be reached by a critical mass of voters to affect meaningful reform.

It's not about Kooch and it's not about Edwards.

It's about that consensus bringing to bear the electoral clout to institute needed change.

The OP failed to acknowledge this and in the process slammed other candidates' supporters.

He was called on it.

That's what happened.

It's now down to specific proposals, some of which are much better than others.

in the Congress.

We could use people's help on this issue, not a firebrand OP who wants to dis everybody's input.

That was our topic sentence.

If you have to compromise downward, you will have started from the highest point instead of somewhere in the middle.

Point being, there wasn't a real team spirit to the OP.

I objected to the absence of that collaborative spirit.

Even if you will accept a kitten, never stop asking for a pony. It works well enough for Republicans--why not us?

and as he is the only one with a single payer universal health care plan....well.

I only have health insurance (the most bare-bones kind you can get) because my parents pay for it - they don't want me to go without, but I think this plan I'm on is worthless.

When I saw that movie, I wept in the theater. It wasn't about people like me going without, it was about people like my father (who's been in the hospital for fairly long stays twice in the past few years) trying to stay alive with no help what so ever. Jesus.... It's like we're frickin' animals the way our government treats us.

voter this time around. I believe the country as a whole will eventually demand it. We are not there yet, as you can clearly see if you only take a peek at some of the flaming threads on GD-P re: healthcare. People don't understand it. I hope some of the other candidates will move closer to it as their own healthcare plans come under scrutiny. But we have to win this election. We have to. Or healthcare will be the least of our worries.

if it comes to that,

But if people do not get their heads out of their asses and vote for single payer health care in the primaries, we are not going to get it.

It makes no sense to support any candidate that does not support it.

If you are voting because you think you are choosing the most electable candidate, well that is just plain idiotic. In fact, voting in this manner will invariably pick the most not electable candidate.

have "their heads up their asses."

Bud, that's no way to begin a dialogue.

Primaries, such as they are, are held to select a nominee. You post on DU trying to horsewhip people into voting for Kucinich as if none of the rest of us were capable of making distinctions. You ought to try a new tactic.

Kucinich is an amazing soul. No argument there.

But he is not very likely to be the next president, and the tiny % of Democrats on DU OR the entire Democratic voters nationwide are not going to change their vote in the primaries to or from Kucinich even if you keep calling them "idiotic."

there is only one guy supporting single payer.

There is the choice of refusing to support any candidate.

one issue.

Paul Krugman disagrees with you, by the way, and finds significant merit in the health care proposals of other candidates. So do I.

Point being, Kucinich is not the only Democrat in the race. Nor is he the only vanguard for health care reform.

Is a person repeatedly rejected by numerous insurance companies
and will be all that affected by whatever form of insane, corporate welfare health insurance we get vis a vis Hillary Clinton.. Those of us who are affected are not too pleased with the prospect.

newspaper.

If he didn't give a damn about health care reform and economic justice, he would likely endorse Duncan Hunter.

Robert F. Kennedy did not have to worry about health insurance either, but it didn't prevent him from battling for those who did.

there is only one guy supporting single payer.

There is the choice of refusing to support any candidate.

Because people continue to believe that lie, until you have convinced yourself that it's reality.

Truth is, that right now, no candidate has a single vote. There are no front runners. Not Edwards. Not Obama. And damn sure not Queen Hillary the Almighty. Kucinich is an "amazing soul" who will also be an amazing President. All we need to do is make it happen.

Vote for the President America needs.

Kucinich is a contender for the top spot.

Just my take.

If his campaign proves me dead wrong, I will happily admit it and buy you the coldest beer in town.

If you want to sell your car for $5000 but would take $3000, the number you put in your newspaper ad is $500, not $3000.

His pointing out that there was no evidence back in 2002 and voted no every time while the rest sided with Bushco on their agenda, WHY?
He is also standing up and trying to give the people a voice and protect our constitution and rights. He was against the patriot act, he spoke out on the floor alone about the illegal hunt oil deal and so on. There are many issues that Dennis Kucinich has stepped out alone on, while the others have tried their best to stay away from the real issues. The constitution and our rights should be EVERY Americans number one issue to vote on, if not, America really has been dumbed down into sheeple and we are doomed.
. Hell, it should be the number one issues out on the campaign trail but for some reason, its not even close with most of our candidates...I wonder why? If anyone votes for a candidate that doesn't support our constitution or cant recognize what THEY are doing to it with their votes, its obvious that person should turn their tv off and go educate themselves on whats taking place in our country before its too late.

If we lose our rights, we lose on all of the issues!

Moore keeps saying that other countries have healthcare that is "free"... none of them are "free".

Secondly, while I completely think that single-payer type healthcare should be available, it is politically not going to just happen overnight. Anyone who understands how the healthcare and pharmaceutical industries are firmly in power with millions spent on lobbyists knows that it is going to have to be incremental.

I like how Moore exposes the corruption of the American system, but his Hail Mary approach that single-payer healthcare has to happen overnight is admirable but not tangible at this particular time.

HR 676 has 78 cosponsors in Congress now. Only about 200 more are needed. How's that going to happen?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00676:

Perhaps if more people see Sicko, there might be a change for the better sooner....as long as grassroots efforts build and send a message to Congress.

if you vote for a candidate that does not support it, how in hell can this cause advance?

the other 7 will NOT be the nominee. Perhaps Clinton will continue to lead and win the nom. Perhaps Obama will over take her. Maybe Edwards or Richardson or Joe Biden.

Longer shots would be Kucinich and Gravel, IMO.

In Denver, it could be that neither your guy nor my guy is the nominee.

Health care reform still has to happen.

There has to be a consensus toward the reform. Meaningful reform does not stop just because your guy or my guy isn't the nominee.

There's nothing in your OP to suggest that reform will continue to matter to people who need it if Dennis Kucinich is not the nominee, plus you managed to pointlessly insult voters of the other 7 candidates in the process of missing the point.

as you. On several threads tonight you are making fierce, good sense.

Carry on!

it will happen. A DU'er here from Canada explained how it took decades to get to where they are now and they are still trying to improve it. It did not happen overnight. Dramatic change rarely does.

Any president who want to implement positive change will have to make compromises whether we like it or not. We can be idealistic and progressive, and still be realistic and pragmatic.

We have our heads up our asses!

The Canadians (and other nations, too) can teach us a thing or two about health care reform.

Much work is needed and you're absolutely right -- it's not a weekend project.

it will take time and reason to begin the transformation. You can't just wipe out insurance companies overnight. The picture of the chaos and confusion is a nightmare. The government is just going magically take over all the administration responsibilities of these companies overnight? It seems to me it would start with legislation directed at the insurance companies and drug companies, as well as health care providers. Since the Reagan administration, there has been little or no oversight for large corporations.

The economy is fragile enough as it is. The destruction of many businesses that are part of that economy would be a financial disaster.

If you saw Sicko, and paid attention to its message, one thing would be overwhelming your grey matter right now - the insurance industries collude within their organizations to first of all cherry pick those who will be insured, second of all to deny payment for legitimate expenses (The woman whose ambulance bill, after being in a hit and run accident, was denied because she did not pre-approve the ambulance ride) and third of all they deny treatment. Even if denying the treatment means you die.

Basically you are saying that this mafioso style of operation has to continue. I think a lot of people in this country are not willing to accept the corruption any more. If other nations have moved beyond that point, so can we.

I read somewhere that Denmark's national health insurance plan is all of three pages long.

We can do as well.

I'm saying there is no quick-fix. It cannot be done overnight and we wouldn't be in this situation if there had been more oversight of these companies for the last twenty years. Initially insurance companies provided a "service" for a nominal fee and most employers provided it for free. Health care providers started to get greedy and tried to milk every policy for every cent they could get. It became a vicious cycle and the government did not intervene - free market crap philosophy. Opportunists operated with few restrictions and we ended up with the debacle we have today.

We have reached it.

I am doubting that the people of this country continue to be placated with your slogans such as "Well, it will take a long time!"

we are at that point.

When critical mass is reached the tea goes into the harbor.

The insurance lobbyists leave the town, Nay they leave the country. They have reason to be very very afraid.

I was talking to someone who lives in South Africa about a year ago. And menitoning how I never quite understood how it happened that one day, almost without notice, So Africa rejected apartheid and installed Mandela overnight.

I asked this woman to explain.

She said that the suddennness of it is exactly what happened - that to her (and she was living there when it happened) it was almost as if one night the nation went to bed and had the collective dream that things had to change - that the losses on both sides were simply too high to have it continue. And within just a few weeks things did change -t he old regime toppled.

The same thing happened with the Soviet Union. One day, without any notice, the Wall came down.

People have had it with this health insurance thing. It affects almost everyone - except of course, the good people in Congress and the executive branch, the people in prisons, the very poor on AFDC, or SDI, the people in prison, and those at Gitmo.

For most of us the health insurance situation sucks. And I think we are ready to pull that wall down.

I see Kucinich as an invaluable ally in that long-term cause, but certainly not as its lone crusader.

and action needs consensus and consensus takes time and compromise.

I was on a local Health Council that advises the COunty Board of SUpervisors from 1997 to 2005.

People have alreadty held meetings and gotten consensus.

At least in California, the writing is in the wall - if the consumers don'band together and make a fuss, the needed hospitals, clinics and mental health facilities will be closed with only the cherry picked few remaining open.

The discussion has been going on for a long long time.

and California has been a leader in health care reform. These are all steps towards universal health care and there will be more to come, as the rest of the country catches up with California. Not everyone is there yet, but they're getting there.

:toast:

for exactly the reasons Moore illustrated in Sicko.

Other countries demand better from their government. Why don't we demand better?

I don't believe the Obama camp is going to switch from Obama, nor the Clinton camp from Clinton, and so forth.

I'm a strong admirer of Dennis Kucinich but I find your claim that he's the sole captain of significant health care reform to be baseless.

You like blasting other candidates. You do it consistently on these boards.

If Mike Gravel wins our nomination, I think you should vote for him. There's a lot to like about the man.

There is no reason at all to be pissed off.

http://www.guaranteedhealthcare.org

Write to your congressman. Write a letter to the editor of your paper. Write to the other candidates not supporting HR 676. Show the DVD to 10 people, and have them show it to 10 people. Have a "Sicko" party and talk about it. Spread the word. Channel your anger into something positive. One step at a time.

There has to be critical mass achieved before any social reform occurs in any culture.

The resistance is often fierce, frequently violent, and not surprisingly brutal. The men and women who marched in the South against segregation and on whom governors turned police forces and attack dogs did NOT pass the Civil Rights Bill in a week's time, or in a month's time.

The wave grew, and was built on, and added to, and suffered setbacks, and generated confidence and confusion and more confidence until at last, there it was, passing the U.S. Congress.

That was a long, long, difficult road.

Health care reform is going to be a long road also of quite a different kind of battle.

Kucinich's words on all issues are a balm. I love them, I would prefer that policies that far left prevail and that government would responsibly reflect those policies but it is apparent that change -- as the slogan goes -- has its enemies.

I would have welcomed the opportunity to stand with you tonight in this post as one Democrat to another to enjoin still more Democrats to build a consensus and a critical mass where reform is inevitable.

But your OP swept away any avenue I might have taken to join you. I knew Kucinich from decades ago and don't need a primer from you or anyone else on his true heart. It's been beating that way a long time. If he does not win the nomination, you need a plan B, and IMO you don't begin any journey toward cooperative change by telling anyone not voting for your guy that they have their heads up their asses.

Right now, that means educating ourselves, educating our fellow citizens and educating our CANDIDATES about the benefits and necessity of universal healthcare. We're getting there. This time last year, there wasn't even much of a debate about it. People are talking, people are learning.. like you, they are making their voices known. It's a good thing :-)

Universal Health Care used to mean a single payer system. The corporate sponsored Democratic candidates have co-opted the term. In this election, Universal Health Care has come to mean Universal Health INSURANCE.

The only candidate advocating a single payer not for profit system is Dennis Kucinich. The other candidates are advocating universal health INSURANCE. Anyone who has ever dealt with an insurance company knows that INSURANCE is not synonymous with CARE. In fact, insurance companies make money by denying care.

Clinton and Edwards would both mandate that citizens buy private insurance. Those who can't afford it would be subsidized by the taxpayers. That means taxpayers would be subsidizing the same PRIVATE insurance companies who make money by denying us care.

As long as we get behind candidates who are on the corporate teat - nothing will change. As long as we elect to settle for less, we'll continue to get less and less.

What your thesis fails to take into consideration is that the people at the grassroots level want single payer. It's the corporate politicians and their enablers who do not.

I pay property tax for the fire department and the county library system, but they are FREE at the point of service.

And both the husband and I support DK.

he'll be our candidate for Prez in 2008 - if we haven't moved to France!

discussion with a variety of points of view:

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/6/13/134643/293

You said:
"Anyone that has seen this movie and agrees with the premise and then goes on to support any candidate besides kucinich is not using their brain."

I would say anybody that makes their decision for president based on one issue is not using their brain.


On edit: You're right about the movie. It is excellent and a must-see!

besides health care.

For example, none of the candidates besides Kucincich want to reduce the military budget.

The only compelling reason to support any Democrat besides Kucinich is to beat the GOP. But that election comes second.

At this point supporting candidates that will not support single payer, do not want to cut military spending and voted and pushed for the war in Iraq--well like what is the point?

You will get a chance in November to vote against the GOP.

makes me so mad that these so called medical people have the power to destroy lives

and Kucinich is the 2nd least likely candidate to be able to do that. The least able would be Hillary, in my opinion.

USA Today's 'On Politics' Blog Reports:

Newspaper ads published yesterday in Iowa said Vice President Cheney would "probably be dead by now" from his multiple heart attacks if he didn't have federally funded health care that most American's can't get.

Even before they were printed, they'd been labeled "outrageous" by Cheney spokeswoman Megan Mitchell.

Showing no signs of backing down from its controversial ads, a spokesman for the California Nurses Association and the National Nurses Organizing Committee tells The Washington Post's The Sleuth blog that it's Cheney and the Bush administration who are outrageous:

"What's outrageous is we have an administration that sits on its hands while we have 47 million people who are uninsured ... This administration has ignored this health care crisis," says Charles Idelson, spokesman for the California Nurses Association and the National Nurses Organizing Committee. "They're indifferent to pain and suffering."

We got this country involved in a war with Iraq in no time at all. I find it hard to believe that if WE HAD THE WILL, we couldn't affect the health care mess with similar immediacy.

i might as well write myself in as a candidate then. I'm sure I could offer the best proposal for healthcare as I see fit. And I have as much a chance as becoming president as Kucinich does.

As Kang and Kodos said, "go ahead, throoooow your vote away!"

I bought the DVD and brought it to work. I put it on the railing of the white board and wrote a note that anyone who wanted to take it home and view it could do so. Just write your name and date down. So far about 5 co-workers have done so in the last 2 weeks. I also gave a copy to my mom for her birthday, although perhaps in retrospect it wasn't such a great present since it made her worried. She's close to retirement.

because it made her look bad.