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Hillary Unsure About Students' Right to Vote; Whether She Wants Students' Votes (from DKos--diary)

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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 06:49 PM
Original message
Hillary Unsure About Students' Right to Vote; Whether She Wants Students' Votes (from DKos--diary)
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 07:00 PM by proudmoddemo
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/12/11/122414/01

"If this is your first time reading about this subject, the gist is this: a variety of Democratic campaigns, at the prodding of David Yepsen of the Des Moines Register, had tried to cast doubt on the right of students not originally from Iowa to participate in the caucus. At times, it has seemed as if both Clinton and Dodd, who were at first vocal on this matter, have stepped back from their position. At this point, no campaign has come forth with a clear statement affirming the rights of students to participate in the caucus regardless of where they were originally from. You can read previous reporting on this issue here, here, and here."



I have an observation. Motor voter and HAVA prohibit being registered in more than one place. An elections office that gets a student registration has to send a copy to the student's home state's election board if that student was previously registered. Voter lists are then updated, and those that registered at their college are purged from their home state's voter list. So if student's are registered in Iowa, their only chance at participating in our party's nominating process is to caucus. Further, the law clearly states that students have to be allowed to vote where they go to college. Mind you, these are laws that President Clinton signed and Senator Clinton voted for. It's a shame when a principle--like the right to vote--gets in the way of the Clintons' ever-lasting lust for power.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. That is a diary on Kos, not Kos himself.
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I corrected the title
However, I found it because Kos himself did decide to put it on the front page.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. The problem is getting registered ... and it's nothing new
I had to appeal to vote where I attended college decades ago. If the student is registered, of course they can participate ... but students have always faced a limited right to participate in what we consider local affairs. For the long time residents, I understand the hesitation ...
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. No longer the case
The law is very clear that students have the right to register and vote where they go to college. This is not a problem nation wide. But, unfortunately, our side is now waging a war on students' right to vote because students caucusing in Iowa is inconvenient for the establishment.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. The Brennan Center would tell you
In several jurisdictions, constitutional or statutory provisions provide that no person shall be deemed to have gained or lost a residence for voting purposes by reason of her presence or absence while a student at an institution of learning.

...

States have established varying standards and tests for determining a person’s intent with respect to voting residence. In New York, for example, the standard is whether the place is the “center of the individual’s life now, the locus of primary concern.”


Please note the present tense. Nothing has changed in twenty years and shouldn't. It was an administrative appeal and I was proud to participate.

http://www.brennancenter.org/dynamic/subpages/download_file_10178.pdf
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Elementary Law Says That's Superceded
By federal law, which says thanks to a 1979 decision, that students can register in their college state's as long as they "establish residency." This means that students can register to vote as long as they meet the requirements made of people that move into a state (usually 30 days or 60 days in a domicile).

http://www.dailynews-record.com/news_details.php?AID=3724&CHID=2
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. And if you're a student, you stay about 60 days ... look, I'm sympathetic
but the rule is clear - you have to start registration earlier than most and expect to document your intentions if you want to participate in a college town's local politics. Remember, you don't know the history and it's natural to be resented.

The law is clear, but I've seen nothing scandalous so far, much less illegal.
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. How is Hillary's Statment Not Scandlous?
When Iowa law is clear that students can register there (they meet the 60 day requirement). Hillary saying, "I think Iowa should be for Iowans," is code. Crap like this always has politicians speaking in code. It's code for, "Don't let the damn college kids vote."
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-12-07 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. The opposite is true. You're encouraged to vote back home ... just not
in a town where you presumably have no roots, no history with the community - until I actually spoke to some folks in a "college town" I didn't understand their concerns. It's not what you think and definitely not a scandal.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
5. are these exact quotes from HRC saying she is unsure about this...or just more dog squat? nt
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Going to fire that volunteer too ?
It's coming out of her campaign. People in her campaign don't know what her position is on students' right to vote. And therein is the problem with Hillary.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. She already voiced her opposition to students in Iowa voting...
talk about dog squat.

"This is a process for Iowans. This needs to be all about Iowa, and people who live here, people who pay taxes here," she told the Clear Lake crowd.
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. More from the Karl Rove playbook
Disenfranchising people that aren't likely to vote your way. When principle gets in the way of the Clintons' ever-lasting lust for power, we know what is going to win...every time.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. "If Iowa can't get this right, then Iowa shouldn't get this sort of influence."
http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071211/OPINION01/712110372/-1/NEWS04

It's one thing for Obama to turn out non-Iowans to party dinners, eastern Iowa rallies, Oprah Winfrey visits or door-knocking. It would be something else to have them actually vote, something the campaign emphatically says it isn't encouraging. But Larry Rasky, a spokesman for Joe Biden's campaign, said last week: "Obama has paid no more than lip service to the timely call by the Dodd campaign for all the candidates to pledge to keep their out-of-state supporters on the sidelines."

However, both laws and practical considerations are in place to help ensure the integrity of the Iowa caucuses:

- Falsely registering to vote is fraud in Iowa. Someone from Illinois who thinks voter fraud is a way of life in that state will find a much different attitude from Iowa prosecutors.

- It would take hundreds of people in the right precincts to make a difference in the outcome. Any plan that brings thousands of people into Iowa to vote would be so visible everyone would see it, and it would backfire on the candidate who is supposed to benefit. It's also called conspiracy, another crime.

- There is a law of diminishing returns on the Democratic side. After a candidate has won all the delegates from a college precinct, adding more caucus-goers to it does nothing to improve that candidate's score.

- These are neighborhood meetings. In most caucuses, people know one another.

- Credibility. It's not going to do Obama or Paul any good to have a showing in Iowa that is tainted. Obama has worked hard in Iowa. He has built an impressive organization and can win this on the legit. He doesn't need to give opposition spinners a way to discredit a victory.

The bottom line here is that on caucus night, Iowans in both parties should work hard to conduct caucuses that are above reproach.

If Iowa can't get this right, then Iowa shouldn't get this sort of influence.

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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Agreed
Students have the right to vote. If Iowa can't get that right, then another, more representative state should have its influence.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. Further, the law clearly states that students have to be allowed to vote where they go to college.
That's fine, and I support that. But....

Ya canna vote in two places in the same election. I believe that Obama and company are trying to have Iowa College students register and vote in the early Iowa caucuses, legally - and then - and then, what they do after that is nobody's business.

Might be a little slimy, but it's legal.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. no, it's illegal
and also completely untrue.
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's illegal?
And you have a link to the laws?
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Your theory is Wrong
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 08:19 PM by proudmoddemo
(Meant to reply to the illegal theory, sorry).

What the Obama campaign did was encourage out of state students to register in Iowa back at the beginning of the semester. In short, they did that great American thing called a voter registration drive.

If students choose to register in Iowa (which is their RIGHT), because of Motor Voter, the registration is automatically forwarded to the election board in the student's home state, which then purges that student from the rolls. Because of laws Bill Clinton signed and Hillary Clinton voted for, students are not registered in more than one place. So if the Clintons are successful into tricking people into not voting in Iowa, they're depriving students of their right to vote in our primary process--not good considering that 18-30 year olds are this party's strongest demogrpahic.

see:

http://www.tcf.org/Publications/ElectionReform/baichap3.pdf
http://www.dailynews-record.com/news_details.php?AID=3724&CHID=2
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suston96 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. You talking to me?
Because of the time frames involved are you saying that a non-resident student at Iowa State cannot register and vote in Iowa caucuses on Jan 3 and then transfer registration to the home state for voting later in the year?

Or does that caucus vote on Jan 3 register the non-resident student for the entire election cycle in Iowa through the general?
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. No, about the "illegal" comment
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 08:28 PM by proudmoddemo
Sorry for putting it in the wrong place.

If they caucused in Iowa, their application to transfer to a new state wouldn't be processed until after the primary process was over. You can't vote in more than one state in a primary for federal office--that's against federal law. The only time that it is questionable is if you move from one state to another, and each have their local primaries at a different time. I haven't looked that up, I should.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. What the heck is wrong with being "purged" at home? I would hope so!
Nobody's being tricked out of anything.
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Being purged at home is right:
Edited on Tue Dec-11-07 08:30 PM by proudmoddemo
But we should also note that students that are registered in Iowa lose their ability to vote in the presidential process if they do not caucus because they were purged at home, and the registration deadline for partisan primaries has past in most states.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. But they weren't purged at home unless they'd successfully registered
What am I missing here?
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. Does Iowa have same day registration?
I don't know if they do or not. But if they don't, then the registration deadline has presumably passed, which means that candidates should be encouraging all registered voters in Iowa--regardless of occupational status--to vote.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
28. i know
i'm saying voting more than once is illegal, and that Obama is planning that is untrue.
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Fair enough sorry for the misunderstanding
Obama ran a voter registration drive. Nothing wrong with that. You're right, voting more than once is illegal, and it is also basically impossible to do now...If students are registered in Iowa, then they have to vote in Iowa or their ability to vote in our nominating process is lost.
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bunnies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Its NOT illegal!!!
In many states non-residents are welcome to vote. This is true for both NH and Iowa. In NH... students are encouraged to vote where they go to college. They can even use an out of state ID to do it. Its Legal!
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. no, it's illegal to vote more than once
and the idea that their secret plan is to vote twice is silly.
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Actually Supreme Court Says
In 1979 decision (name escapes me at the moment), that students can register to vote in college state as long as they meet standards to establish residency. So if a student meets the standard that is required of a person moving in that state to register (usually 30 or 60 days in a domicile), they have the right to register to vote. Period. End of story.

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=one_student_no_vote
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. The law ain't so clear ... see link below
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. Wrong--
Students can register freely at college in all 50 states. The only thing that is unclear is whether they have to change their driver's licenses/government IDs to match their new address. If they don't, then they may not be able to register. Still, they can register and have the right to vote. It's a shame the Democrats are stooping to Karl Rove's level and trying to disenfranchise people by encouraging students not to vote just because they're likely to not vote for Clinton.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Did you read the article? The Brennan Center wrote a white paper cause
there's a problem ... so deny all you will, I got reason on my side.
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. I did
And the article said what I posted.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
30. Rock the Vote press release today
Rock the Vote Statement on Iowa Student Voting Rights

Dec. 11, 2007: Official statement from Rock the Vote Executive Director Heather Smith regarding the rights of college students to vote in the upcoming Iowa caucuses:

“Over the past week, several campaigns, candidates and political reporters have stated that college students who moved to Iowa to attend school should not vote in the Iowa caucuses.

“These statements are a frustrating and disappointing attempt to suppress the student vote, and are also legally incorrect. According to the Iowa Secretary of State, all Iowa students have the right to vote in the town where they attend college in Iowa. From the Secretary’s website:

‘If you are from another state (i.e. Illinois) and are attending college in Iowa (i.e. Iowa State University), you may register to vote in:
• your Iowa college town or
• your home state (hometown) and vote absentee - subject to the laws of your home state.’

“To tell students that they can only vote in the town that they came from, rather than in the town where they live, is a clear effort to disenfranchise student voters. Attempts on the part of campaigns to deter eligible voters from voting should be forcefully and immediately denounced.

“These statements are even more disturbing given the unprecedented levels of engagement we’re seeing from today’s young voters – both in participating in the 2008 campaigns, organizing their peers to register and vote in the caucuses and primaries, and in their recent historic turnout levels in the 2004 and 2006 elections. Young adults’ growing political participation should be encouraged, not deterred.

“Rock the Vote urges every campaign and candidate to issue a statement that validates students’ right to vote in Iowa and lauds young Americans for their increased engagement in the political process. We also encourage all media outlets to make clear in their reporting leading up to January 3rd that college students have rights equal to any Iowa resident to vote in the Iowa caucuses.

“Students go to a college or university for 4 or 5 years and many stay on in those communities afterwards. They pay sales tax, many work full or part-time jobs and pay income tax, and they are subject to the laws of the community in which they live – they have every right to vote in that community, legally and morally.

“It is important to note that this is an issue larger than the Iowa caucuses. Legally, students have the right to vote where they go to school in virtually every state across the country. Despite this, we see challenges to student voters year after year. As we have in the past, Rock the Vote will make sure all students know their rights in 2008, and will work to ensure all eligible voters are allowed to register and vote in the 2008 elections.

“Rock the Vote’s Iowa program Rock the Caucus aims to mobilize high school and college students to caucus on January 3rd. As always, Rock the Vote will aggressively ensure young people know that if they live in Iowa, they can vote in Iowa, and let them know where candidates stand on important issues like student voting rights.

“Again, Rock the Vote urges every candidate to issue a statement that clearly validates students’ right to vote in Iowa and lauds young Americans for their increased engagement in the political process.

For more information:
Kat Barr, 202-994-9528, kat (at) rockthevote.com
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. To whom does this refer?
candidates ... have stated that college students who moved to Iowa to attend school should not vote in the Iowa caucuses

Who said dat?
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proudmoddemo Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-11-07 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Richardson, Clinton, Dodd
Specifically, Bill Richardson (who I support, but who is wrong on this one), who told his college student supporters not to caucus--way to run an effective campaign there Bill, Chris Dodd, and Hillary Clinton who has said, "I think the Iowa caucus is special and that it should be just for Iowans," which is code for "don't let the damn college kids vote."
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-12-07 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. Ah. Well, as one of those damn kids, let me note that I support the Iowans
Just as I understood 'em in Rochester. I was a newcomer w/o roots and no long-term commitment to the community. Plague of college towns everywhere ... please try to understand this is not voter suppression.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-12-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. You can add Biden, unfortunately
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