Not the perfect way to sabotage the Nader campaign.

Apologies.

I honestly didn't realize it was a felony-- i.e. it could be considered forgery. I have no problem with fighting mean, and I don't think anyone who signed would possibly be caught if they weren't at their domicile.

Nevertheless, I don't advocate something that could be possibly in the most remote way considered a felony, especially in the name of this site, hence the subject matter is pulled.

Sorry for the over-exuberance.

Nader should be defeated by his own hypocrisy, not dirty tricks.

Just for what he wrought in 2000.

If he wants to screw-over the world, I am all about stooping-down to his level of sewage.

As the poster that started the following locked thread found out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=383159

Petitioning watchdog group urges citizens to be vigilant

By Charles E. Beggs, Associated Press Writer

SALEM - The campaign to repeal the legislative tax increase is just a few days old, but both sides are already playing hardball.

A union-backed watchdog group said Wednesday that it plans to closely monitor the paid workers who are getting ready to collect signatures for the referendum campaign, which aims to give voters their say on the $800 million tax package.

Formed in 2001, the Voter Education Project played a key role in last year's election season. Volunteers observed petition circulators and videotaped some for irregularities.

As a result of their complaints, two paid petitioners pleaded guilty to criminal charges of forging names on petitions. Signature challenges by the group also played a part in preventing initiative petition activist Bill Sizemore from getting any measures on the ballot.

http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2003/09/18/news/news05.txt

GOP leaders again wailed about the evils of partisanship, since none of the Democratic offenders was in danger of doing jail time. On the other hand, Dem candidates haven’t been accused of forging names since the days of ex-Congressman Peter Kyros (whose cronies got caught, back in 1976, because they signed many of the phony signatures in distinctive green ink).

http://www.portlandphoenix.com/archive/features/02/04/19/Diamon.html

but on a technicality-- aren't those liable the ones submitting the petitions?

Again, not nice, but if you are walking in public, and someone approaches you and asks you to sign on a dotted line for something and you write "Barney Fife", does that REALLY make you guilty of a forgery, or does it make the person gathering it guilty if he knows it's them.

It would seem a stretch of the law to say the person accosted is the one committing the felony.

and I will not hesitate to blow the whistle on any organized campaign to forge ballot petitions.

I still have some blank ballot placement petitions left from when I collected signatures to get Dennis Kucinich on the Indiana Presidential primary ballot. Here is what the form, which is an official Indiana Election Commission form (CAN-8) says:

Each of the undersigned represents that: 1)the individual resides at the address after the individual's signature; 2) the individual is a duly qualified registered voter in Indiana and 3) the individual desires to be able to vote for the candidate listed below; and each of the undersigned respectfully requests you place the following name of the legally qualified candidate for President of the United States on the May 4, 2004 Primary Election Ballot as a candidate of the (check only one box please) Democratic Party or Republican Party.

who is ultimately responsible for submitting the information. Is it not the campaign or the petiton gatherer?

An organized campaign implies that you seek out petition gatherers to flood the petitions with bogus information. Is the onus really on you if YOU are approached?

Again, I acknowledge it's dirty pool, but I question whether the guy at the street fair or the mall who is approached by the campaign is commiting a felony. It just means the Nader campaign has to work harder and actually go from house to house to make sure they do their job.

constitutes a conspiracy, don't you?

From FindLaw:

Conspiracy

A criminal conspiracy exists when two or more people agree to commit almost any unlawful act, then take some action toward its completion. The action taken need not itself be a crime, but it must indicate that those involved in the conspiracy knew of the plan and intended to break the law. One person may be charged with and convicted of both conspiracy and the underlying crime based on the same circumstances.

For example, Andy, Dan, and Alice plan a bank robbery. They 1) visit the bank first to assess security, 2) pool their money and buy a gun together, and 3) write a demand letter. All three can be charged with conspiracy to commit robbery, regardless of whether the robbery itself is actually attempted or completed.

http://criminal.findlaw.com/crimes/a-z/conspiracy.html

I pulled the advocation, but am questioning the how the law works. I merely asked if when one is approached and signs a wrong name, if that person is the one who (potentially) committes a felony, or is it the one who submits said signatures.

We are dealing in hypotheticals. There is no conspiracy if there is no concrete plan, or if there is no intent to break the law.

This is like asking "Is this a loophole?"

and if this involved several people, and it also included a website in which the idea was hatched and promoted, it could become a PR and a legal stinker.

I will point out that John Edwards would never advocate or even suggest such course of action. No one that works in the legal profession in any capacity would do or advocate such a thing.

You have to realize that the people that validate those ballot petitions are state employees. Their time, which is paid by taxpayers, would be wasted if they have to chase down an organized forgery ballot effort.

JRE would never advocate such a thing. And I have withdrawn the idea, I was merely questioning who is finally liable.

Don't the employees have to check each one ANYWAY though?

I guess I'm delving into semantics now. I dont think a remark on a board constitutes conspiracy-- though I guess it may if it is not withdrawn and was distributed and heralded.

...those willing to subvert the process are willing to do so at any given time to advance their agenda...

The unethical is unethical is unethical. And at what point for them does electoral frauds justification begin and end? When they want a bump in the dailies? When their candidate is trailing? At the general election?

Just something to consider.

is to start a campaign advocating loudly that democrats DO NOT sign the petition. There can be nothing unethical about that. That is playing well within the rules of the game. And challenging the signatures is also well within the bounds of ethics.

Is there anything wrong with mounting a challenge to the signatures in every state?

I don't know exactly what it says, but it is a contract.

If you're not interested in signing, just say "no thanks" and keep walking.

-C

Whether in this case it's illegal or not I wouldn't know.

But it's still fraudulent and definitely unethical and immoral.

I don't suppose that occurred to you? And occurring to you now as it surely must with it being baldly pointed out, does it matter?

I understand the argument, but I question whether its a felony to write "Vito Corleone" if you are approached on the street. That sets up all sorts of entrapment possibilities. I believe the onus is on the submitters.

As far as unethical-- maybe, I think it straddles the line. Immoral? More immoral than Bush getting back in? More immoral than Nader's run? I think if Ralph wants to be a play victim, we should help him along the way.

The implication here is that one would seek out petitioners. That would be deliberate intent, I doubt the joke signature would be.

Kerry is Mr. Electable - so why all the handwringing? He can beat Bush with both hands tied behind his back - so what's the big deal?

As a matter of fact, I wish Edwards can derail the Kerry coronation train before it leads us to defeat in November.

care of anyone suspected of attempting to disrupt the two-party system?