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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:02 PM
Original message
NYT: Questions arise about Hillary's 'experience' as First Lady
Clinton’s Résumé Factor: Those 8 Years as First Lady
By PATRICK HEALY

As first lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton jaw-boned the authoritarian president of Uzbekistan to leave his car and shake hands with people. She argued with the Czech prime minister about democracy. She cajoled Roman Catholic and Protestant women to talk to one another in Northern Ireland. She traveled to 79 countries in total, little of it leisure; one meeting with mutilated Rwandan refugees so unsettled her that she threw up afterward.

But during those two terms in the White House, Mrs. Clinton did not hold a security clearance. She did not attend National Security Council meetings. She was not given a copy of the president’s daily intelligence briefing. She did not assert herself on the crises in Somalia, Haiti and Rwanda.

And during one of President Bill Clinton’s major tests on terrorism, whether to bomb Afghanistan and Sudan in 1998, Mrs. Clinton was barely speaking to her husband, let alone advising him, as the Lewinsky scandal sizzled.

In seeking the Democratic presidential nomination, Mrs. Clinton lays claim to two traits nearly every day: strength and experience. But as the junior senator from New York, she has few significant legislative accomplishments to her name. She has cast herself, instead, as a first lady like no other: a full partner to her husband in his administration, and, she says, all the stronger and more experienced for her “eight years with a front-row seat on history.”


An interview with Mrs. Clinton, conversations with 35 Clinton administration officials and a review of books about her White House years suggest that she was more of a sounding board than a policy maker, who learned through osmosis rather than decision-making, and who grew gradually more comfortable with the use of military power.

Her time in the White House was a period of transition in foreign policy and national security, with the cold war over and the threat of Islamic terrorism still emerging. As a result, while in the White House, she was never fully a part of either the old school that had been focused on the Soviet Union and the possibility of nuclear war or the more recent strain of national security thinking defined by issues like nonstate threats and the proliferation of nuclear technology.

Associates from that time said that she was aware of Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden and what her husband has in recent years characterized as his intense focus on them, but that she made no aggressive independent effort to shape policy or gather information about the threat of terrorism.

She did not wrestle directly with many of the other challenges the next president will face, including managing a large-scale deployment — or withdrawal — of troops abroad, an overhaul of the intelligence agencies or the effort to halt the spread of nuclear weapons technology.


Asked to name three major foreign policy decisions where she played a decisive role as first lady, Mrs. Clinton responded in generalities more than specifics, describing her strategic roles on trips to Bosnia, Kosovo, Northern Ireland, India, Africa and Latin America.

Asked to cite a significant foreign policy object lesson from the 1990s, Mrs. Clinton also replied with broad observations. “There are a lot of them,” she said. “The whole unfortunate experience we’ve had with the Bush administration, where they haven’t done what we’ve needed to do to reach out to the rest of the world, reinforces my experience in the 1990s that public diplomacy, showing respect and understanding of people’s different perspectives — it’s more likely to at least create the conditions where we can exercise our values and pursue our interests.”


Susan Rice, a National Security Council senior aide and State Department official under Mr. Clinton who now advises Mr. Obama, said Mrs. Clinton was not involved in “the heavy lifting of foreign policy.” Ms. Rice also took issue with a recent comment by a Clinton campaign official that Mrs. Clinton was “the face of the administration in foreign affairs.”

“Making tough decisions, responding to crises, making the bureaucracy implement decisions that they may not want to implement — that’s the hard part of foreign policy,” Ms. Rice said. “That’s not what Mrs. Clinton was asked or expected to do as first lady.”

Mrs. Clinton said she was “only tangentially involved” in Mr. Clinton’s first major overseas test, whether to send American soldiers after the Somali warlord Mohammed Farah Aidid and his forces, a raid that ended in 18 American deaths. Asked if she had pressed for an invasion, she said she had acted “more as a sounding board” for Mr. Clinton.

The same was true during the military confrontation in Haiti in 1994, over restoring the exiled president, Jean-Bertrand Aristide, which she favored and drew lessons from about joint command of American armed forces.

Asked about her role in Somalia and Haiti, Mr. Christopher said in an interview, “She wasn’t at any of the meetings in the Oval Office or cabinet room, and didn’t take any formal role that I saw.” Mr. Christopher is supporting Mrs. Clinton for president.

Nor was Mrs. Clinton a memorable player on Rwanda. Former White House officials say that no one — not the national security team, not the president, not the first lady — was seriously pushing for American military intervention to stop or slow the unfolding genocide there; the administration’s focus was on confronting the ethnic bloodshed in the Balkans. Mrs. Clinton declined to comment on Rwanda.


Read Full Article at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/26/us/politics/26clinton.html?hp
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. How the hell do they know if Hillary was or was not "barely speaking to her husband." -???
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 11:11 PM by Skip Intro

I stopped reading there -


Anyone who seriously thinks that Hillary is inexperienced and, by implication, not up to the job, relative to all the candidates, Dem, repuke or otherwise, has a serious problem with reality, imho.


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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I thought it was widely reported that the Clinton's were barely speaking during the Monica debacle.
Would you speak to him if you were her? How platonic do you think their relationship is? To such a degree that she could disregard his sordid escapades with an intern? And then lying to the public about it?
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It is a delving into personal matters that wasn't cool when the repukes did it,
and is infinitely disgusting when used years later to disparage a Democratic candidate.

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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. I didn't agree with it either, but if you get called in front of the law
you have got to tell the truth.

Is it any business of ours if Barry Bonds uses steroids? I don't think so. Yet when called upon by a grand jury or any other legal body you must tell the truth. Once it is in the public sphere you have brought it into our lives.

You think I liked being subjected to all that media coverage? I was the first one defending the man.

But as a woman I am plain disgusted by his behavior. And I am disgusted that she has been living with that all these years. Do I believe he hasn't cheated on her since Monica? No, frankly I think he is a serial womanizer who can't help himself.

I am sooo tired of this. Please do not subject me to Bill Clinton's ways again.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Is that all you take away from Bill Clinton's adminsitration?
"Bill Clinton's ways" - ? wtf?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. Did we not spend the last few years of the Clinton administration on this waste of time?
Wikipedia cites the date it appeared on Drudge as January 17, 1998. Clinton left office in 2000.

From Wikipedia: "President of the United States Bill Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives on December 19, 1998, and acquitted by the Senate on February 12, 1999. "

After that he was the lamest of the lame ducks. And poor Al Gore had to live with all this trash while Bush ran on "Family values".

I hold Bill Clinton responsible for George Bush's election. I'm sorry but that is the way I see it.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. You seem to want to hold the victim of a lynch mob guilty.
Sorry, I don't see it that way.

I would LOVE to go back to the Clinton days.

Hard to believe some woudln't.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Well I wish we had had some Al Gore days...
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 11:51 PM by dkf
but we didn't. Because Bill Clinton couldn't tell the truth.

Can you imagine what Al Gore could have done as President. I CRY when I realize what we lost. I cried at his concession speech. I had nightmares about what George Bush would do as President and it all came true.

Global Warming...would we have been half way to fixing this mess? Not going into Iraq... Moving from the internal combustion engine...

Like I said it makes me cry.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Wow. Yeah, it's all Bill Clinton's fault.
Where have I heard that before?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. I believe that George Bush's election is mostly attributable
to Bill Clinton's screw up with Monica.

Maybe you don't see it that way but I do.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. I think voter fraud and a politically active supreme court played a bigger part imho
The Clintons were maligned and attacked from day one. Rembemer Whitewater?


I just don't see using a repuke attack against a current Dem candidate.


Guess we do have different views here.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Yes that is part of it, but I think the psyche of the country was very affected by the Lewinsky
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 01:02 AM by dkf
thing. I just wish Bill had told the truth. He thought that because they had no right to be asking him questions that he could lie. I'm not cool with that.

I like a man who can come clean and repent. But maybe I am weird that way.

I would also hate it if our President was being cheated on. Its kinda demeaning, doncha think?
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. I'm sorry to keep this up, but did you really want him to testify he'd had sex with Monica?
Did you really want the trap to work?

I'm not a woman, so maybe there's some aspect to this I don't grasp. I'll admit to that possibility.


In my mind, I saw a great president and a pretty damned active first lady doing what they could for the people. A day to bush's night, if you will.

And I saw him slimed and persecuted daily, both of them. For years. Many would have quit. They didn't they are heroes for that in my book. The state of their marriage, their personal commitment to each other, and how much and when they talked to each other is their own damn business. I don't see how it could be otherwise.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Do I think people should tell the truth in a court of law?
Yes I do.

I would.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. He was acquitted.The law was served. Now what the hell does any of this have to do with Hillary?
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 01:11 AM by Skip Intro
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. The original thread was whether Hillary and Bill were really
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 01:44 AM by dkf
not speaking during the Lewinsky scandal and therefore how could she have been part of the administration's decision making during the time when Osama Bin Laden appeared on our radar.

Your point seemed to have been that because it had to do with the Lewinsky thing that we shouldn't examine that time and what role she played in the administration.

I can't believe you wanted him to lie in a deposition and lie to US the American public. Damn you really are cynical. And I wasn't asking for him to wave his finger at me and tell me he hadn't had sex with "that woman". But I was subjected to seeing it a whole lot.


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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. I don't know how anyone could know how much they talked. But aq supposedly targetted Bill.
I'm pretty sure Hillary would have had some heads up on that.


What role she played in the admin is certainly open - doesn't that still allow for some personal relationship and privacy?
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Sure she gets some privacy if it has nothing to do with
any of the experience she is claiming.

But she is running on her experience and then she won't tell us what her experience is. We are supposed to use our imaginations and can cook up the wildest stuff, which is I think, what she wants. She wants us to inflate what she did as first lady.

She is not being truthful with us and it bothers me to no end.

I think that it is part of the Clinton Modus Operandi and I feel it is deceptive.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #52
79. Thanks for all your points, dkf. amd
fwiw, I think you're entirely right.

clintons couldn't afford to be "truthful" with the American Public..they want back in our whitehouse.
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Azathoth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:34 PM
Original message
Hillary can't have it both ways
She can't claim that most of her so-called executive "experience" was in the form of "private counseling" with Bill, and then expect no one to examine the details.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
16. How BIll and Hillary handled, personally, the Lewinsky "scandal" is their own damn business.
Not something upon which to draw conclusions and base judgments.

The fact that they stood tall, Hillary especially, and withstood all the bullshit for so many years, says a lot to me about her toughness.

Criticize her votes and positions, but leave her and Bill's personal life out of it.


Sheesh.
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Azathoth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. No, you can't leave her personal life out of it when she's claiming that as her "experience"
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 11:52 PM by Azathoth
When you put your personal life down as a major bullet point on your resume, any potential employer is gonna examine it. (And the GOP is gonna have a field day with it.)
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ElizabethDC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Well, she's said that they weren't speaking much, but
she also helped him draft his speech to the nation the evening that his involvement with Monica (Hillary herself had found out just that morning, or maybe the morning before.) So there was some level of communication at that point, though it seems to have been strictly work-related, based on their accounts.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Major anti-Hillary spin - using quotes from a clerk under SOS Albright rather than Albright herself
Madeleine Albright states that Hillary was the face of the administration in foreign policy as much as she was.

The only Albright mention is "Madeleine K. Albright and Richard Holbrooke in the administration and Tony Blair....turned to her at times to stiffen Mr. Clinton’s resolve to take on Serbia".

To quote "Susan Rice, a National Security Council senior aide and State Department official under Mr. Clinton who now advises Mr. Obama" is to admit pro-Obama bia by the New York Times, if not an anti-Hillary attitude. This open spinning fits well with the New York Times owned Boston Globe endorsing Obama.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/26/us/politics/26clinton.html?hp
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Looks like Resume inflation of the highest order.
Geez this is bad.

Meanwhile, the decisions she has been responsible for, the IWR and Kyl-Lieberman, have been WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. She is a bad decision maker. This seals my opinion of her for me.

Would you hire someone who did this to their resume?
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. A LOT of US Senate Dems voted for the IWR. They were misled. Obama himself said he didn't know
how he would have voted.


As far as the resume aspect goes, I'd ask for the definition of what those votes were actually for, and what the rationale was behind his or her vote.


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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I wasn't misled.
Anyone who had a clue about the aluminum tubes should have been wary about anything else Bush came up with.

I think they just said they were misled to cover up their cowardice. They were afraid to vote against it and look "weak".
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Lets stick with the facts: Obama clearly spoke out against the war from the start. nm
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. And he also said he didn't know how he would have voted. He ALSO said
that it was understandable that people voted for the IWR.

He also said that there wasn't much differnece between him and bush on Iraq.

He later explained that he was just saying what was politically expedient, not really what he thought.


Facts.
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. See post # 14. nm
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
36. Like that erases his other statements. How do you know which ones to believe?
The question stands.
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CyberPieHole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
77. If you are an Obamanation you choose the one that suits your point and discard the other...
Obama votes "present" for a reason...he won't get caught voting pro or con on difficult questions. Repugs won't call him on it.:evilgrin:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Obama explained he said that in 2004 because he didn't want to make Kerry/Edwards look bad.
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 12:11 AM by ClarkUSA
Don't use Obama's moment of party loyalty during an election year to cover for your girl's completely amoral vote on IWR. Obama gave a public
speech WHILE HE WAS RUNNING FOR THE SENATE denouncing a possible war with Iraq NINE DAYS BEFORE Hillary didn't read the NIE, ignored the
pleas of her anti-IWR Senate colleagues and voted to give Bush a blank check via IWR.

And her reasoning? Oh yeah, she TRUSTED what Bush and Condi Rice told her.

Now that's the kind of "experience" America needs in a president! :sarcasm:
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. SO he said something he didn't really mean for political expediency. So is he being straight now?
Or will he tell us what he REALLY means later?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. So you would've preferred if he dissed Kerry/Edwards & said, "No way I would've voted for IWR!"
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 12:13 AM by ClarkUSA
:eyes:
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. I would like him to tell me where he stands, honestly, without political calculation.
Especially since he's the supposed candidate of "hope" and "change"
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Obama did so on 2 October 2002 when he stood and gave a public speech denouncing an Iraq war
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 12:47 AM by ClarkUSA
This speech occurred while he was running as an underdog in a Senate race when 80% of the country supported the idea of a
pre-emptive war with Iraq, as you might recall. It was also nine days before the ill-fated Senate vote on IWR.

So where's the beef?

Also, Obama wasn't a presidential candidate in 2004 so your throwing that in is contextually incongruous to your complaint.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. was that before or after he decided he didn't know how he'd have voted?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #37
40. It was 9 days before Hillary voted to give Bush a blank check for preemptive war with Iraq...
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 01:07 AM by ClarkUSA
Based on all her foreign policy "experience" of course.

I think I've made my points quite well. I was willing to discuss this while you had a smidgin of integrity but since you've
resorted back to your usual BS schtick, I'll be going.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. I am asking you about OBAMA - not Hillary. All you ever do is try to deflect. Says a hell of a lot.
I'd be going too if I were someone who couldn't back up my own words.

btw, I'm still here.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. Obama stood publicly against the war on October 2, 2002. Hillary voted for IWR on October 11, 2002
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 01:36 AM by ClarkUSA
That's all people need to know.

I don't blame you for being embarrassed at supporting Hillary after she's been exposed as a phony who pads her resumé like
an insecure triple 32A cup teenage girl pads her double 34C bra.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Then in 04 he said there wasn't much difference between him and bush on Iraq.
Which do you believe and why?
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. How about we show the context and actual response by Obama, shall we?
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 01:52 AM by ClarkUSA
Russert asks about a series of quotes and then Obama responds:

"Now, Tim, that first quote was made with an interview with a guy named Tim Russert on MEET THE PRESS during the convention when we had a
nominee for the presidency and a vice president, both of whom had voted for the war. And so it, it probably was the wrong time for me to be
making a strong case against our party’s nominees’ decisions when it came to Iraq."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21738432/page/2 /


The quote, “There’s not much of a difference between my position on Iraq and George Bush’s position at this stage. That was July of ‘04." is
answered by:

"What I was very clear about, even in 2002 in my original opposition, was once we were in, we were going to have to make some decisions to
see how we could stabilize the situation and act responsibly. And that’s what I did through 2004, five and six, try to see can we create a workable
government in Iraq? Can we make sure that we are minimizing the humanitarian costs in Iraq? Can we make sure that our troops are safe in Iraq?
And that’s what I have done."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21738432/page/2 /


Looks like he did what everyone else who was against the war was doing at that stage: acknowledging the fact that since we were now in the
terrible mess, we needed to resolve it intelligently.

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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. So his answer was to avoid the question. I can see why you like him.
The parsing.


And the clever editing on your part for that post supposedly providing some context in which the words "I agree with bush" mean something else. And his excuse for such talk is that it was the politically advantageous thing to do, despite what he supposedly really believes, is a deflated balloon.

I really, really would like you to explain how anything you just quoted reverses anything he said prior.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. lol! His answer explained things beautifully; your dishonest spin is Hillaryous!
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 02:52 AM by ClarkUSA
You're as phony and deceptive as Hillary's resumé... I hope you and she enjoy her trip back to the Senate come Feb. 6. :-)

Enjoy kicking this terrific thread without me.... the more people read the OP, the better!
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Ha! Hit a nerve, eh? You really can't argue your contrived points, can you?
Well, why do I ask? The answer is all here in black and white.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. I've laid it all out. People will decide for themselves. Your turn: Why did Hillary vote for IWR?
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 03:33 AM by ClarkUSA
Also, why didn't she read the NIE before she voted for IWR?
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Exactly. nm
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #24
48. He said something he didn't really mean for political expediency? That's his excuse?
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NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
73. Yes, he said something for Kerry/Edwards' political expediency. That's called
being a good Democrat.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
3. Hillary's problem is not "inexperience." It's that she's too plugged in to the same old
Edited on Tue Dec-25-07 11:19 PM by Jim Sagle
power brokers.

Healy's hogwash stirs up sexism against Hillary but hides the real reason why her candidacy might trouble us - her ties to the same old establishment figures, many of whom concocted our current mess and the rest of whom allowed it to develop. Healey uses dirt and trivia to diminish the candidate, disrespect the electoral process, and discourage readers from thinking about their own interests and how they might best cast their votes to advance those interersts.
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. ditto. nm
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. Begala, Carville, Gergen....the whole lot of them to the Dumpster
of History.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Very well said. n/t
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #3
32. she claims to be the best person for the job
then she should be able to back that statement up. if you or i apply for a job we better be able to back up our claim of experience for the job we apply for. i have no doubt that hillary has "some" experience but if she wants my trust then i want to see just what her experience is.

has she learned anything from those days in the whitehouse? in my opinion she has`t made a full discourse and worse several statements she has made shows that she has`t.

yes... it seems to be the same old establishment and i for one do not want another 8 years of that.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
81. Precisely...
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 05:31 PM by zidzi
"Hillary's problem is not "inexperience." It's that hillary doesn't have much going for her besides enabling bushit so the capaign latched on to "expericence" as their reason for being the end all to end all speculation about who is the best candidate. And, now, there's questions about her "experience", too, as well there should be.
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-25-07 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
27. New York Whore Times....SSDD....or SSDW(different writer)
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. How come you never say that about Paul Krugman's "New York Whore Times" Op-Eds?
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 12:29 AM by ClarkUSA
It couldn't be because you're just another Hillaryworld Hypocrite, could it?
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. lol. good point. nm
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
70. That's exactly why.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #33
82. yeah pretty much. an empty shell of one too.
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. Ah, yes... attack the Times when it isn't playing cute with Hillaryland...
Oh utterly transparent of you.

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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #27
56. touchy, touchy ... looks like someone is hitting a nerve
Don't you want to know more about her 'experience', Benny?
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
42. Proposed response for Hillary44 and other Hillaryland sites
While Hillary Clinton did not have any security clearance, never attended National Security Council meetings, didn't receive a copy of the president’s daily intelligence briefing, didn't talk to her husband much during the Monica Lewinsky period or did much of anything after seeing the disasters in Rwanda, Haiti or Somalia, she worked very hard and did many great things for the American people.

Hillary Clinton, during her years as First Lady, did attend various staff meetings uninvited and certainly made her presence known and did have staff members fired for various reasons.

This experience, if viewed by those who love Hillary Clinton, is exactly the same thing as being President of the United States. Anyone who thinks not is either (a) a sexist, (b) a Right Winger, (c) a Hillary Hater, (d) a really bad person or all those mentioned.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #42
54. lol. Thats what I got out of the article. nm.
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 03:04 AM by dkf
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #42
60. lol. good point. nm
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #42
61. Yep, that about sums it up!!
I've seen enough of a, b, c & d on this board alone. No need to check what the right wingers are up to after some of the vile things I've seen written in DU about a fellow Democrat.
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JackORoses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. do you sleep better at night thinking that all of us who dislike Hillary have no good reason?
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
59. It would be so much more honest to just admit Hillary has the experience...and move on.
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 07:08 AM by Perry Logan
HILLARY'S EXPERIENCE ON THE WORLD STAGE:

Her historic speech at the UN Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing in 1995 not only galvanized women around the world, it helped spawn a movement that led to advances politically, legally, economically, and socially for women in many countries over the next decade. Among other initiatives, she spearheaded the Clinton Administration's efforts to combat the global crisis of human trafficking. She persuaded the First Ladies of the Americas to use their collective power to eradicate measles and improve girls' education throughout the western Hemisphere. And she is widely credited with helping women in Kuwait finally win the right to vote.

As First Lady and now as a two-term senator who represents the most ethnically diverse state in the nation and who sits on the Armed Services Committee, Hillary Clinton has become a fixture on international issues over the past 15 years. She has traveled to more than 80 countries, going from barrios to rural villages to meetings with heads of state. She has consulted with dozens of world leaders - Nelson Mandela, King Abdullah, Tony Blair among them -- on matters as diverse as America and NATO's roles in Kosovo, eradicating poverty in the Third World, and the plight of women living under the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Today, she is one of the most influential voices in the world on human rights, democracy, and the promotion of a "new internationalism" in foreign affairs that calls for a balanced use of military force, diplomacy, and social development to strengthen American interests and security globally.

While American First Ladies historically have made great (and often overlooked) contributions to our nation, Hillary Clinton's wide-ranging experience on international issues as First Lady is unprecedented. Indeed, she is the only First Lady to have delivered foreign policy addresses at major gatherings of the United Nations, the World Bank, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the World Economic Forum.

Hillary Clinton has been fighting for the rights of children for special needs for decades. In her first job out of law school working for the Children's Defense Fund, she conducted research that led to Congress passing the Education for All Handicapped Children Act of 1975, the landmark bill mandating that all children with disabilities be educated in the public school system. later, she helped improve the education of children with special needs by working to reauthorize the Individuals with Disabilities in Education Act. In 2005, she sponsored an amendment to increase funding for the act by $4 billion dollars. She also cosponsored the Personal Excellence for Children with Disabilities Act, a bill that promised to help schools recruit and retain new special education teachers, and better prepare general education teachers and staff to work with children with special needs.

Most recently, she has called for greatly expanded funding to the National Institute for Health to investigate treatments for children with disabilities. And she has put forth a comprehensive and detailed plan to help children and families affected by autism, with numerous elements that correspond very closely to what families in the autism community have been demanding for years.
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
62. The media is covering every base: Newsweek says the opposite
Clinton this week, is going to focus on "experience" and the right-wing propaganda machine really wants to cut her off at the knees, so they are covering all the bases:

Newsweek: she had a hand in everything--the bitch.
NYT: she did nothing but have tea parties--the bitch.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
64. I always check out the author of political pieces like this
First hit on google is from mediamatters

http://mediamatters.org/items/200605240005

Author of NYT tabloid story on Clintons has checkered record
Summary: Patrick Healy, the author of a New York Times article purporting to examine the married life of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) and former President Bill Clinton, wondered in a 2004 report whether Teresa Heinz Kerry, wife of Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John F. Kerry (MA), was "a bit kooky" and openly questioned "what kind of marriage the Kerrys have" while filing other erroneous stories on the Democratic nominee that fueled Republican attacks. By contrast, Healy has let another prominent New Yorker and possible presidential contender, former Mayor Rudy Giuliani, escape similar personal probing in three recent stories.

more at link
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. thanks--great work
The greater issue is why the "progressives" are clinging to the right-wing lies and distortions about Clinton? I don't understand it.
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TeamJordan23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Can you refute (or better yet, your candidate) refute any of these NYT 'right-wing lies' ? nm
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. the one that jumped out at me with the cursory reading was
"travel gate." Remember the "independant counsel" who spent billions attempting to bring down the Clintons? One of the things they investigated ad naseum was the travel agent issue--and found NO WRONG DOING.

Now, you can read this hatchet job at take it at face value, without letting facts get in the way of a good story, or take it for what it is: a hit piece.

The right-wing propaganda machine is covering their bases: Newsweek and NYTimes. In one article the bitch ran the Whitehouse. In the other the bitch wasn't even talking to her husband and had only tea parties.
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Good find, thanks!
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
68. And remember when Bill said, a couple months ago, that the failure of the healthcare reform
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 02:39 PM by jenmito
was HIS and not Hillary's? She wants credit for all that went right but had nothing to do with anything that went wrong. Oh-and she also claimed she consulted with Bill, the former president, before voting FOR the IWR, (even though he now claims he was against it from the beginning). I don't want these liars back in office.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
71. Sadly Obama lacks First Lady experience.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. True...
yet he has to campaign against not only the first lady but her husband who just happens to be one of the most popular Dem. ex-presidents. I think Obama deserves a TON of credit for managing to get where he is in the polls despite being up against BOTH of them on his own merit. And the Big Dog has been making some false statements and some things that work FOR Obama.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Well, it will all be over soon and we will see
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 04:13 PM by AtomicKitten
how voters in Iowa and New Hampshire thrown down. No matter what happens, I am proud that Obama has stuck by his principles and run his campaign with integrity.

edited to say Happy New Year, Jen!
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. True...
Yes, I'm proud of him, too. What an upstanding guy.

Happy New Year to you, too, AK! :hi:
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
76. Pretty laughable actually.
This author knows that Hillary's role in decision-making can't be made explicit. Like any other First Lady, she has to be a "sounding board" as this article notes but with condescension: "she was more of a sounding board than a policy maker."

"Sounding board" or "adviser?" Did she just sit there like a board and echo back what she heard or did she say something?

I also disapprove of the "barely speaking" nonsense. That's just pathetic.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. So then you think Hillary was speaking to her husband who just admitted to cheating on her again?
Maybe you're right. Maybe she couldn't care less about his cheating ways because she's only with him to help her political career. :shrug:
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. It's not a soap opera. If we let people turn it into that...
Edited on Wed Dec-26-07 05:16 PM by gulliver
...then anything is possible. That's how a Dubya gets elected.

I don't expect Hillary to hum the theme from Love Story whenever Bill walks in the room. Do they still have sex? I don't really want to know--that much.

The deal is, how many marriages out there fall short of John and Yoko? I'd say most. The idea that the Clintons make their partnership about more than romantic love doesn't strike me as bad. Maybe they love the country and want to help it so much that they "stay together for the sake of the country." Maybe Hillary is a Hellcat in bed and Bill strays but can't shake Hillary's evil spell. Who the hell knows?

All I care about is getting the country back to sane and from there to good. I'll pay attention to facts. But anything that touches on feelings does not get the benefit of the doubt with me. I presume it to be false.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-26-07 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. It's their reality. And it DOES affect them politically as well as affecting US
since not only is it a huge distraction in this day and age (unlike the Kennedy days when there was no youtube and infidelities weren't as big a deal as they are now), it could directly affect Hillary's ability to do her job as president since she's now running as another "two for one" deal. While the Lewinky affair was going on do you really think they were talking to each other about foreign policy? And if/when he cheats again, do you think they will really be talking to each other about policy? Sorry, but it comes with the territory.
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